WheelchairDriver

still have one oem dongle kit available.

hi guys i need to buy a r-net oem programmer at a good price. i live in italy also used okay. why we play at weelchair hockey in italy and we use the sport 3 turbotwists with r-net control unit

See pm. And Rover above, has one for sale.

sorry, all gone again for now

This question/questions may be answered somewhere within this forum, and I think I know the answer to my first question. But couldn't find anything definitive when I searched.

Can R-net controllers handle 36 volts if I had a OEM dongle to program it with? I ask because I have a Permobil M300 that I want to build a lithium battery for and if it will go 36v why not!

And what are the most powerful motors that can be acquired, i'm building a strictly off road chair so want the best motors for the job, this will also be 48v or more and use the Robotek controller.

Thanks in advance!

Can R-net controllers handle 36 volts if I had a OEM dongle to program it with? I ask because I have a Permobil M300 that I want to build a lithium battery for and if it will go 36v why not!

No. Its designed for 24V lead, or up to 29.6V when charging, with a typical 32V limit before you get errors. The ACTUAL short term max voltage is coused be gegenerative spikes up to around 32V and so the controller has a 32 to 35V extreme limit. Best to use 8S LiFePO4.

And what are the most powerful motors that can be acquired, i'm building a strictly off road chair so want the best motors for the job, this will also be 48v or more and use the Robotek controller.

Whats you definition of power?
Watts determine what the motor can safely HANDLE CONTINUOUSLY. They do NOT tell you how powerful a motor is regarding torque.

Its like this. Provided the motor can pull more Amps than the Roboteq can provide, then ALL motors will give the exact same torque at the output shaft at the same max speed rating. So if 2 different motors run at 6mph, and both are limited to x Amps by the roboteq then as long as both are equally efficient (most are quite similar) then both will produce the same amount of stall torque. And the same speed. Motor watts doesent enter into this.

That is unless you exceed the average watts rating and melt something. So higher watts will protect against this. Its really just a measure of how fast it can cool... So. does that help?

Doubling the volts means that you go twice as fast. Torque remains the same.
Unless you change the GEARING and half it. So now it goes at double the MOTOR speed but the same road speed, but has double the torque. With the same motor, and the same current limit.

Does that help?

On the motor VOLTS = RPM. and AMPS = TORQUE.

Burgerman wrote:

Can R-net controllers handle 36 volts if I had a OEM dongle to program it with? I ask because I have a Permobil M300 that I want to build a lithium battery for and if it will go 36v why not!

No. Its designed for 24V lead, or up to 29.6V when charging, with a typical 32V limit before you get errors. The ACTUAL short term max voltage is coused be gegenerative spikes up to around 32V and so the controller has a 32 to 35V extreme limit. Best to use 8S LiFePO4.

And what are the most powerful motors that can be acquired, i'm building a strictly off road chair so want the best motors for the job, this will also be 48v or more and use the Robotek controller.

Whats you definition of power?
Watts determine what the motor can safely HANDLE CONTINUOUSLY. They do NOT tell you how powerful a motor is regarding torque.

Its like this. Provided the motor can pull more Amps than the Roboteq can provide, then ALL motors will give the exact same torque at the output shaft at the same max speed rating. So if 2 different motors run at 6mph, and both are limited to x Amps by the roboteq then as long as both are equally efficient (most are quite similar) then both will produce the same amount of stall torque. And the same speed. Motor watts doesent enter into this.

That is unless you exceed the average watts rating and melt something. So higher watts will protect against this. Its really just a measure of how fast it can cool... So. does that help?

Doubling the volts means that you go twice as fast. Torque remains the same.
Unless you change the GEARING and half it. So now it goes at double the MOTOR speed but the same road speed, but has double the torque. With the same motor, and the same current limit.

Does that help?

On the motor VOLTS = RPM. and AMPS = TORQUE.

Thanks for the reply!

So, I'm looking for Torque. But it sounds to me like that is controlled by the gearing and the controller. I have a pair of 4 pole motors from a heavy duty 4mph invacare arrow 3gar base. I had planned on just using those with the 90 amp MK6 controller, but since I have acquired the Permobile M300 I plan on going full off road with it.

I will get a robotek to use and set it up with 48V. I think that it will be just fine with those 4 pole motors and 48v. All I want the extra torque for is primarily the ability to climb a hill, otherwise it will be nice to go faster.

Thanks as always you are an amazing resource for all of us non engineer guys.

So, I'm looking for Torque. But it sounds to me like that is controlled by the gearing and the controller.

Gearing, max controller Amps, and SPEED. A 4mph 4 pole motor, will have 50% more torque than a 4 pole 6mph motor, all else equal. Limited by max amps of the controller.

I have a pair of 4 pole motors from a heavy duty 4mph invacare arrow 3gar base. I had planned on just using those with the 90 amp MK6 controller, but since I have acquired the Permobile M300 I plan on going full off road with it.

The permobil has 2 pole motors. So will have less torque. Its also 7mph. So will have half as much torque (with the same controller A level) as the 4mph HD motors.

I will get a robotek to use and set it up with 48V. I think that it will be just fine with those 4 pole motors and 48v. All I want the extra torque for is primarily the ability to climb a hill, otherwise it will be nice to go faster.

Extra volts double the speed. Your HD 4mph motors will have the same torque as before, at the same Amps. But the roboteq offers more Amps. But will do 8mph. Best of both worlds. Beware of mechanical gearbox failure. At higher Amps off road. Also be sure to fully understand quite how complex the roboteq is. Read the long thread pinned at the top of the forum.

From the spec sheet, the Permobil F5 uses 4 pole motors (at least in the US spec sheet):

http://www.permobil.com/en/Export/C/Products/F5/

Steve

So it does. Maybe just the older and F3 then. But still, the 4 pole 4mph motors will have almost double the torque as speeds move away from stall. If they are the same linix motors as I think, the 2 poles are a little longer and so offer around 75% of the 4 poles torque. But are not really capable of taking the 120A that the r-net can give. So if the 2 poles fitted to the slower f3 are used with the 120 r-net I susspect the PM will be set to a lower limit. or short boost time etc. (If you have the 120A version).

But they are 7.5mph. So will have a little over half the torque as the 4 pole 4mph HD ones.

This makes me laugh!

Unlimited control
R-net, our most advanced control system, in combination with Intelligent Control System (ICS) raises driving performance, safety and coordination of functions to a whole new dimension. From the start R-net/ICS has been designed to control and monitor a variety of functions and information. The system has wide expansion capability and almost unlimited potential. R-net/ICS uses advanced technology to link the user's needs and intentions with the chair's performance and capabilities. All electrical seat functions can be coordinated with the chair's driving characteristics and programmed to suit individual needs.


High resolution graphics and large screen icons ensure ease of use and availability. Driving and controlling the chair and its functions are now even simpler and more natural. R-net/ICS is also the safest and most reliable control system we have developed. Naturally it can be adapted to suit all forms of advanced disability aids.

Features
• High expandability and capacity for handling advanced multiple functions
• Improved driving precision
• Clear display with high-resolution graphics
• Large, clear screen icons
• Extensive programmability for adaptation and integration of electrical functions, memory modes, favourite positions etc.
• Facility for numerous advanced combinations of seat functions and mobility
• Useable on all new Permobil models

Curtiss-Wright would have something to say about Permobil's advertising BM!

Steve

Can anyone lend me a R-net OEM Dongle so I can my Salsa R2 chassis functioning with my Jive m2 Sedeo Ergo seat R-NET system, please?

You only need a dealer one to do OEM stuff if its a one off thing, the extra steps needed to make that possible are no problem if you only use it occasionally.

And viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9442

optical10 wrote:Can anyone lend me a R-net OEM Dongle so I can my Salsa R2 chassis functioning with my Jive m2 Sedeo Ergo seat R-NET system, please?

Where are you in UK?

Irving wrote:

optical10 wrote:Can anyone lend me a R-net OEM Dongle so I can my Salsa R2 chassis functioning with my Jive m2 Sedeo Ergo seat R-NET system, please?

Where are you in UK?

Stockport, Cheshire.

Anyone know if the dealer "PG Drives R-Net Dongle Power Wheelchair Programmer Permobil Quickie D50609.03" will work on the 2016 quickie salsa r2 or jive m2 r-net 120A moduled using bm's dealer dongle using OEM sw work around?

optical10 wrote:Anyone know if the dealer "PG Drives R-Net Dongle Power Wheelchair Programmer Permobil Quickie D50609.03" will work on the 2016 quickie salsa r2 or jive m2 r-net 120A moduled using bm's dealer dongle using OEM sw work around?

Yes, it should work fine, mine is the same part #.

Irving wrote:

optical10 wrote:Anyone know if the dealer "PG Drives R-Net Dongle Power Wheelchair Programmer Permobil Quickie D50609.03" will work on the 2016 quickie salsa r2 or jive m2 r-net 120A moduled using bm's dealer dongle using OEM sw work around?

Yes, it should work fine, mine is the same part #.

Thanks, i've pm you because....

Does anybody know the tariff code for the programmer to claim the import tax back?

optical10 wrote:Does anybody know the tariff code for the programmer to claim the import tax back?

Where did you get it from? Can you claim import tax back? VAT maybe, though it'll be a struggle after the event.

Have a look at section 3.6 of this document. I think it tells you what you need to know.

Proving the device is 'wholly designed', etc., for disabled people is always the stumbling block.

Irving wrote:

optical10 wrote:Does anybody know the tariff code for the programmer to claim the import tax back?

Where did you get it from? Can you claim import tax back? VAT maybe, though it'll be a struggle after the event.

HMRC let you claim after purchase if you know code. Importer not helpful providing codw so hence coming here. The Trade Tariff Code tool is so ambiguous and non specific i guess i'll have to use codes related to wheelchairs accessories in general!

optical10 wrote:

Irving wrote:

optical10 wrote:Does anybody know the tariff code for the programmer to claim the import tax back?

Where did you get it from? Can you claim import tax back? VAT maybe, though it'll be a struggle after the event.

HMRC let you claim after purchase if you know code. Importer not helpful providing codw so hence coming here. The Trade Tariff Code tool is so ambiguous and non specific i guess i'll have to use codes related to wheelchairs accessories in general!

I had a look at that tool, couldn't find anything relevant to wheelchairs. The doc I linked to gives non-item specific codes for products intended for disabled people, which may be easier.

How much was import duty & VAT? Is it worth the hassle?

Irving wrote:Have a look at section 3.6 of this document. I think it tells you what you need to know.

Proving the device is 'wholly designed', etc., for disabled people is always the stumbling block.

Thanks for that. Turns out that ups are being total legends and by sending me an email that I have to return signed stating that this item is for disabled use only and they will waver the import tax fees so I don't have to pay the driver COD if the they emailed back the waiver code in time.
if not I can claim it back via UPS instead of HMRC without the tariff code.

optical10 wrote:

Irving wrote:Have a look at section 3.6 of this document. I think it tells you what you need to know.

Proving the device is 'wholly designed', etc., for disabled people is always the stumbling block.

Thanks for that. Turns out that ups are being total legends and by sending me an email that I have to return signed stating that this item is for disabled use only and they will waver the import tax fees so I don't have to pay the driver COD if the they emailed back the waiver code in time.
if not I can claim it back via UPS instead of HMRC without the tariff code.

That's great! Better than Parcelfarce that never even replied to my query and wouldn't/couldn't discuss on phone. In the end wasn't worth the effort for £12.

Parcelfarce, and royal mail, both - I detest them. They still feel entitled, and still think they are a government run socialist organisation. By far the worst out of all the rest. And the best by far, is DPD. https://www.dpd.co.uk/

They track things to the meter. And you can watch your delivery as it moves around in real time on screen. You can go out of your front door to meet the delivery driver 30 secs before he enters your street. And very helpful, and never failed or damaged anything.

Have a look at section 3.6 of this document. I think it tells you what you need to know.

Proving the device is 'wholly designed', etc., for disabled people is always the stumbling block.

Written by a stupid civil servant. Bearings, wires, batteries, connectors, wheels, casters, axles, chargers, actuators, bolts, nuts, tyres, plastic bungs and fittings, even motors, are NOT designed for mobility use. And are generic parts that happen to be used on cars, toys, solar systems, boats, and everything else. Almost non of a wheelchair is actually mobility specific. And it says that maintaiance parts should be zero rated! They are morons. Yet you can buy a whole vehicle, that has had a hand control fitted fro new by the dealer for disabled use, as zero rated for VAT quite legally. The civil service is full of paper pushers not engineers with a clue.

I agree about DPD, my carrier of choice though by no means the cheapest. I like their tracking, I though I find their routing quite strange... While watching them online they'll often deliver to several flats in a housing estate about 500m to the east of me then to a couple of houses on the common about 1.5km NW of me then back to the housing estate for a few more deliveries having passed within 100m of my door twice before coming to me. The driver, a nice guy and always the same one, can't explain it, nor is he allowed to deviate. It's not obviously related to parcel size nor location on the van.

Ah... Thats because some pay more for delivery at specific time slots. Rather than them telling you when...

Burgerman wrote:Ah... Thats because some pay more for delivery at specific time slots. Rather than them telling you when...

Possibly, but not sure that completely explains the clustering...

Perhaps the navigation/delivery computer has gone insane?