Levo combi problem

[Asif]

Hi all
I have got used levo combi power chair in great condition. It is 6mph and has full options like seat rise, tilt, standing and laying. Shock absorber are also great.
when I use standing or recline feature then its speed slow down which is understandable but then it becomes very difficult to bring speed to normal high level even after bringing chair to sitting position and zeroing seat hight, tilt and recline.
Does any body knows the exact seating angles that can help attaining normal speed?
Thanks

[Burgerman]

No but it should be full speed at any sort of sane seating position. So if it was before and now its not then there is a sensor or positioning error.But if it was always like that I suggest an hour with a programmer if its part of the joystick control. And change the settings to allow full speed over a wider range of positions.

[Asif]

Ok i have found the solution.
Seat raiser has to be completely low and recline has to be minimum in order to initiate full speed and after seating can be made comfort by seat raise recline. But once the breaker at battery cover are pushed due to seat recline, speed gets low and the process has to be repeated for regaining full speed.

[ex-Gooserider]

Sounds to me like a switch that needs to be removed or relocated....

ex-Gooserider

[expresso]

thats a programming issue from the Manufactor - etc, its set to run full speed only when in a certain position - they never give it enough slack for different positions and once out of that position they programmed into it - it will go in slow mode all the time - you have to be in there sweet spot -

only way to fix that is have them or someone change those settings - would need a OEM at least maybe even higher end programmer to do that and know what to change etc, - all chairs here that users get do the same thing - and 99 percent of them are not happy once they get there chair and find this out the hard way -

then you call your vendor and they cant do it either - or you have to make a Clinic appt with the manufactor person there to make the changes - its a pain in the ass and really shouldnt be that tight on the settings - my own chair is the same way - the moment i raise my seat lift up just a inch - its in slow mode -

tilting has more slack - i can easily tilt more than enough - to go full speed - and stay a bit tilted - users should always check that when they get a new chair - to make sure before you even take the chair home - that it usable for you and the position you need it be - i dont think i am even able to change my own settings for that and i have the OEM Rnet - programmer -

i never bothered since i am fine with my chair all the way down position - and tilted back some - i am sure there is a way also but it would have to be done by the company who installed my seating system which is different from my Chair Manufactor - they feel they know best and they think ONE SIZE fits all - they figure just do it and if no one complains thats it - if you do complain - they will first try to tell you - nothing can be done about it - too bad - its for your safely

this is why you need to make sure when you get a new chair and if its not good for you in those areas - dont take the chair till they fix it - adjust it to your liking - only way to get there attention - have to force them to do it - one way or another - - after all - it is your chair - you have to be able to use it the way its comfortable for you - not them - unless they want to use it instead - and make a new one for you

[Burgerman]

then you call your vendor and they cant do it either - or you have to make a Clinic appt with the manufactor person there to make the changes - its a pain in the ass and really shouldnt be that tight on the settings - my own chair is the same way - the moment i raise my seat lift up just a inch - its in slow mode -

The vendor only has a dumb dealer programmer and cant fix it. YOU have OEM, and can. So why not? You can also increase the lowered speed to whatever you want. Or disable both it, and all the error states that always allow normal driving. Thats why the OEM tool exists.

[expresso]

i cant make it faster to lower and raise - its already maxed out - so there is more to it than just my OEM programmer - about changing it so it dosnt slow down with just a inch of lifting the seat lift - thats also i dont think i can do - for that i would change it if i can - if i knew for sure what to change and what setting etc,

that i would adjust so its not slow at just inch higher than down position - not looking to remove it or make it full speed at lifted heights - but just a inch more at least - now on the permobil chairs - its much more complicated - i know someone who needs it adjusted also - they have Rnet also but its not the same - theres more to it with that chair - i am not messing with others chairs unless i know for sure what i am adjusting -

on my own chair - i can take a look at it - i know the speed going up and down - is maxed out - its not urgent for me since i dont ride the chair unless its all the way down anyway - but still to be stuck that way sucks and shouldnt have to be - there should be a little more slack in that dept. on all the chairs - very narrow window

[Burgerman]

NO, you cant make it go up down faster you can make the CHAIR faster, in the up or tilted position... Or change the position.

Or disable all the inhibits or just one, or whatever you want.

[expresso]

NO, you cant make it go up down faster you can make the CHAIR faster, in the up or tilted position... Or change the position.

Or disable all the inhibits or just one, or whatever you want.

the speed the seat lift goes up and down - thats already maxed out - so that cant be faster than what it is - -

i am not sure its good idea to disable all the inhibits - it can be - all depends - i am not looking to do that since i dont have a issue with any of them at least at the moment i dont - i would still be interesting in learning and knowing for myself which section - adjustments needed for each inhibit - i dont want to just guess what i am doing - thats not very smart

that would be the last resort if someone was having major issues and nothing else can be done or no one will touch it - then yes - touch one at a time and see what it does - - i am not at that point - hopefully never will be - would be good to know which inhibit affects what feature etc, - maybe its right in front of my face in the programming and i just dont see it -

[Tomkilmore]

At the back of the seat behind a cover there are some micro switches, one of these tells the controller to inhibit movement when you stand the chair up. You could stand the chair up, manually operate the switches until you find which one it is, once you find which one it is, undo it and cable tie to the frame somewhere. This is dangerous and you will have full speed stood up so obviously I advise you not to do it.

[expresso]

At the back of the seat behind a cover there are some micro switches, one of these tells the controller to inhibit movement when you stand the chair up. You could stand the chair up, manually operate the switches until you find which one it is, once you find which one it is, undo it and cable tie to the frame somewhere. This is dangerous and you will have full speed stood up so obviously I advise you not to do it.

thanks - i am not looking to do full speed - i think theres a box when i raise up all the way - its there i bet that controls all those functions - its ok - i am not looking to touch hardware i dont know - i was just curious since it goes on slow mode even if you raise it up a inch - its fine for now - thanks -

[ex-Gooserider]

In pretty much all cases that I know of, not just chairs but electro-mechanical stuff in general, the controller is a computer that knows NOTHING about what is going on, other than what the system tells it. The computer (aka microcontroller) takes what it is told by the various inputs, and controls outputs according to rules that are programmed into it by software....

The way stuff is controlled can be either a variable output (analog or an imitation of it), or simply turning it on and off (digital). It is MUCH more complex electronically, which translates to money costs to do variable outputs, therefore every output is looked at as to whether it needs to be analog, or if it is possible to do a simple digital on/off control.... If its at all possible, they will use a digital on /off control because it costs less in hardware, and is easier in software....

Drive motors have to have variable speed control for obvious reason. OTOH, most actuators do things where adjusting the speed isn't critical, so designers pick an actuator that moves at the speed desired and just turn it on and off. So normally it is not possible to adjust the speed of actuators - your seat will tilt, recline, go up and down, etc at whatever speed is designed in at the factory (usually far slower than we would like....)

Since the manufacturers think we are to stupid to not drive at full speed with the seating in a position that would make the chair unstable, they put rules in the software to slow the maximum speed down when the rule is invoked... This is an inhibit rule, and there may be several of them, or one rule with several different 'trigger' points, depending on the software. (Which we are NOT normally allowed to change - even with OEM programmers)

This means that they have to provide some way for the microcontroller to know when to invoke the inhibit rule. So they have to add some sort of input to tell the controller where the seating is positioned. They can do this several ways -
1. Use position sensors - switches, magnetic sensors, potentiometers, etc., that are fastened onto the chair outside the actuator.
2. Use the same sort of sensors that are built into the actuator as part of it.
3. Use an actuator that electronically reports its position to the microcontroller (these can often also be speed controlled unlike the more common sort)

Generally, method one tends to be used on older chairs, with a tendency to move towards method 2 and 3 as the chairs get newer and fancier. I have gotten the impression that Permobil in particular tends to use method 3, which is why they tend to be harder to mess with...

Those of us who want to do things the manufacturers don't like have different options to change the inhibits.... Some mechanical, some in software.

Mechanically, there is essentially nothing that can be done with actuators that electronically report their position, as the position reporting is part of the way they operate.... So Method 3 actuators are limited to playing in the software.

Method 2 is also very limited in what can be done mechanically, unless the sensors have wiring separate from the motor wiring, in which case it can be disconnected (may require connecting the disconnected wires together, or doing other stuff to 'dummy out' the circuit) It may or may not be possible to get into the actuator to adjust the sensor positions, etc.

Method one is simplest to either disconnnect or possibly change the positions of the sensors, value of resistors, etc. to alter when the inhibit kicks in.

Software is easier to change - We can't actually get rid of the rule itself, as we don't have the means to actually replace the entire software that is running on the microcontroller. But IF we have access to the 'programming software' then there are a number of possible changes that can be made, depending on the details of the particular hardware / software involved...

You can usually turn inhibits OFF completely - which is about like disconnecting a sensor in effect....
Often it can be possible to change what the inhibit does when it triggers (i.e. say that 'turtle' is 50% of max instead of 10%)
If the sensor can tell exactly where the seating is positioned (i.e. a method three actuator) it can be possible to change the position at which the inhibit gets triggered.... (i.e. 'turtle' kicks in at 20* of tilt instead of 5*)

Note that our programmers actually don't change the running software, but instead only adjusts the variables that the software uses - a subtle difference, but one that actually makes it FAR easier to control the software...

ex-Gooserider

[expresso]

In my case - i believe its a software adjustment that can be made - if i really wanted to do it - it would mean i have to spend ALOT of time to test one setting at a time - and check etc, - i am not looking to do that - it would have been nice to just know and go right to the setting - make a change and thats it - but with so many settings that can affect that section - its alot of time work and i am sure many mistakes and retrying -

i am Ok with the chair as it is - going up and down seat lift - its slow - that is maxed out already in the software - but also its not a deal breaker - since i use it to transfer only - - in order to get full speed out of the chair - the seat does have to be ALL the way down position - if you go up even a inch - the turtle kicks in
again its no big deal for me now since i only ride when its fully down anyway - but i just feel thats so little wiggle room - i only worry about it if for some reason - it dosnt engage correctly for some reason and i am all the way down but yet it wont go full speed etc, -

its never happened and maybe never will - but that would need to be serviced then - checked - so i am concerned about that - but its never happened and may never happen - i guess i am just trying to learn if i can avoid it if it should happen and by pass it - just to be ready and have a heads up on it -

tilting if fine - it has to tilt back more than enough to cut the speed - i stay tilted back a bit - now where near where it would slow it down -

[Burgerman]

In my case - i believe its a software adjustment that can be made - if i really wanted to do it - it would mean i have to spend ALOT of time to test one setting at a time - and check etc,

No. Its easy. Go to DIAGNOSTICS on the top menu...

[expresso]

ok its greyout - i guess once its connected to the chair - it will be active -

lets say next time i connect it - i take a look at it - then what ?

[Burgerman]

It allows you to see what to adjust. So move your seat actuator, and watch! Then go to the correct type of module, correct channel, and adjust without guessing which one is which. You will see.

[Burgerman]

Unrelated. But I just aquired an IOM module for r-net. So I can use Radio Control on it with woodys adapter. I will be able to take over if someone else is in it, or drive around empty. I do this now with all my other chairs. Cant live without it. I can fetch a chair from the kitchen or bathroom to my bed. Or send it to the garage out of the way without relying on carers to crash it.

RC - how would you like your chair to go like this. Sounds like a motorcycle accelerating!
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/RC-BM3.mp4
As here http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/rc.mp4
Or walk the dog. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/rc2.mp4

If you put a laptop with a mobile card in it, on the seat, and use skype, then you can drive it out of sight and watch on on your PC. You can even say hello to people. Who are surprised by an empty powerchair with a face on it wandering on the street.

[expresso]

It allows you to see what to adjust. So move your seat actuator, and watch! Then go to the correct type of module, correct channel, and adjust without guessing which one is which. You will see.

next chance i get - i take a look at it and see if i can i figure it out - thanks - i update you on it once i do it -

[Tomkilmore]

It honestly sounds more complicated than it is, I suspect you will soon get your head around it.

[ex-Gooserider]

Or walk the dog. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/rc2.mp4

Cool, but how do you get the chair to bag the 'output' (required by law in many towns in the US and elsewhere...) ?

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

You dont.

[Burgerman]

You dont.