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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 15 Sep 2018, 13:41

Here's part of the problem with Norfolk's Health Care... http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/health/norf ... -1-5696342

I have ANOTHER assessment in Norwich on Monday, let's see what happens... :roll:

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 15 Sep 2018, 17:32

steves1977uk wrote:Here's part of the problem with Norfolk's Health Care... http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/health/norf ... -1-5696342

I have ANOTHER assessment in Norwich on Monday, let's see what happens... :roll:

Steve


You can request an independent assessment if you are not happy with their assessment. I did this and the "independent" assessor was someone from a north east wheelchair services who I later found out that wheelchair services were part of the same buying group used by my wheelchair services banghead He did agree that the supplied chair was not suitable for my lifestyle of actually going out and doing things.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 15 Sep 2018, 17:40

You should also realise of course that Care Quality Commission (CQC) is just a bunch of local General Practitioners that meet around once a month around a table?

And that they are paid extra to do that. So they are as clueless as the GP in your local surgery about the mass of complex funding, rules, and budgets and esp wheelchairs. Theres far too much going on generally, and the average discussion on wheelchair provisions and WCS last around 20 seconds and 2 sentences if its even mentioned at all. Time doesent allow that.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 15 Sep 2018, 18:47

Burgerman wrote:You should also realise of course that Care Quality Commission (CQC) is just a bunch of local General Practitioners that meet around once a month around a table?

And that they are paid extra to do that. So they are as clueless as the GP in your local surgery about the mass of complex funding, rules, and budgets and esp wheelchairs. Theres far too much going on generally, and the average discussion on wheelchair provisions and WCS last around 20 seconds and 2 sentences if its even mentioned at all. Time doesent allow that.


I get a call or visit from a CQC inspector almost every year. They have to check care providers and with my case being high cost typically it gets picked for checking. We have a conversation on what the provider does well, what they don't and I don't hear anything else from them. Report gets published on CQC website and repeat for the next year. Box ticking done for another year.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 17 Sep 2018, 11:39

MichaelB wrote:
steves1977uk wrote:Here's part of the problem with Norfolk's Health Care... http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/health/norf ... -1-5696342

I have ANOTHER assessment in Norwich on Monday, let's see what happens... :roll:

Steve


You can request an independent assessment if you are not happy with their assessment. I did this and the "independent" assessor was someone from a north east wheelchair services who I later found out that wheelchair services were part of the same buying group used by my wheelchair services banghead He did agree that the supplied chair was not suitable for my lifestyle of actually going out and doing things.


I shall bear that in mind. Thanks Michael :thumbup:

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 17 Sep 2018, 21:31

Im in the process of getting my wheelchair replaced, they really are tight bastards but i enjoy arguing with them, i want them to hate the sight of me or my correspondence.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 17 Sep 2018, 21:45

Well it seems like I'll be getting a Spectra XTR2 with Dynamic controls, a downgrade from the Salsa R2 with R-Net. Apparently they only supply Invacare chairs through the NHS in Norwich.

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby expresso » 17 Sep 2018, 21:48

dosnt look like a bad chair - hope you got the 6mph at least
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 17 Sep 2018, 21:54

Doubt it as they only supply 4MPH chairs czy 2-pole as well. Can't see it lasting long...

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby expresso » 17 Sep 2018, 22:51

thats insane - you dont know before hand what your getting ? i see either 3.7 mph and 6 mph - unless i seen the wrong chair -

is there a way you can find out before they bring it - refuse it if not at least 6 mph - i mean come on 4 mph ?? cant you do what BM does ?
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby ICEUK » 17 Sep 2018, 23:05

WCS are so far up invacares backside they cant see any daylight, i told assessor at assessment that someone is getting a back hander at wcs fron invacare and not to bother showing me invacare stuff.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 17 Sep 2018, 23:17

Just do as I do. All attempts at being nice have long since gone. Treat them as they treat you. Do an in depth reasoned self assesement, explainng in graphic detail why you need what you do. And why they couldnt assess a fairy cake never mind a person (you) who knows more about your needs and about powerchairs than they do.

All of you give up too easily. The SYSTEM is desiugned to make iut seem impossible. Its engineered to save them as much as possible at your expense. Its meant to seem like theres no flexibility. There is. Not every assessement should end up with the same invvaxare specta whatever. But they always do. Or a miud drive tdx sp or similar.

It actially IS flexible. But you need a big enough hammer to bend it.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby expresso » 17 Sep 2018, 23:18

they do that here also - always try to push pride or invacare - everyone you see has the same chair here - unless you go there ready with the chair you want

Quickie - Bounder - V6 - - any one of those you can ask and get here - they are just quick to show you what they want - they know the users more or less who is going to just go along with them or who will not -

i never went along with them other than my very first chair ever - which was picked by them - turned out to be a quickie P220 - got lucky i guess i stayed with quickie ever since - only changed this time - we see how that works out
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 17 Sep 2018, 23:49

Hmm, the assessor said they don't deal with PGDT controls anymore (or words to that affect) since Dynamic is part of Invacare. Are Dynamic joysticks as robust as PGDT ones? If not, then I'll have to bring that up with them.

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 17 Sep 2018, 23:56

Dynamic was bough by invacare. They are not as advanced or user freindly, I would say 5 years behind in user freindlyness and software. Although they work ok. But your new chair will likely have a low powered locked down system that we cant easily program...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby rover220 » 18 Sep 2018, 05:25

steves1977uk wrote:Well it seems like I'll be getting a Spectra XTR2 with Dynamic controls, a downgrade from the Salsa R2 with R-Net. Apparently they only supply Invacare chairs through the NHS in Norwich.

Steve


linx then, lucky you.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 18 Sep 2018, 12:48

Then bang goes your programming capability, you will be stuck with the hovercraft and smashed chair/doorframes setup! Shit creek and no paddle comes to mind. They are taking any possible programming capability firmly away from the user. God forbid that those get any say in their lives...

We have no solution here. THEY will have the dumb dealer level tool... The manufacturer will keep an oem version under lock and key. Read, and then refuse the chair.

9.3.3 Configuration
The LiNX Programming and Diagnostic (P&D) tools use
Bluetooth to communicate with the LiNX control system via
the LiNX Access Key (LAK). The LAK is a standalone device
that plugs into a remote module. A system cannot be
configured without using the LAK and only manufacturers,
trained providers, dealers, therapists or clinicians have
access to the LAK. This means that end users, their friends,
relatives or caregivers cannot change the configuration.
There are two levels of access:
• Manufacturer (or OEM) and
• Distributor (provider/clinician).
The levels of access permit the following:
• LAK Manufacturer Level
With this level, the manufacturer sets the system's
default parameters to suit a particular wheelchair.
• LAK Distributor Level
With this level, a subset of the system's parameters
is configured by trained providers, dealers, clinicians
or therapists. Critical parameters are limited within specified limits... etc etc.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 18 Sep 2018, 14:45

Then I shall say, "Sorry, this chair is not suitable since there's too much acceleration/deceleration/turning delay." The other option is to swap the control system to a R-Net one, which I have two of.

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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 18 Sep 2018, 15:46

Do two pages. One that lists all the reasons the chair is unsuitablefor you. And why.

And one that assesses yourself, accurately, giving detailed reasons why x chair, with x options does. It must include all your medical, personal and control requirements, holistic needs that suit you complete lifestyle, and even such things as how it looks. All of this affects your wellbeing. They are suposed to take all into consideration. And dont be polite if they try to ignore ANY of it.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 18 Sep 2018, 15:51

I'm almost certain that WCS only supply 4mph chairs, they don't want us killing ourselves. I had a Spectra XTR and I'm sure that it had R Net, WCS won't allow any mods so remember not to mention anything that you do to it :D

My off road chair has Dynamic Controls DX and doesn't seem too bad plus you can use cracked software/no dongle. Every cloud...
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 18 Sep 2018, 15:55

I'm almost certain that WCS only supply 4mph chairs,


You are falling for the "story" and the lack of flexibility myth again. Nobody listens. Its part of their money saving system. As I said its perfectly flexible if you hit it with a bigger :hammer .
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby foghornleghorn » 18 Sep 2018, 17:26

MichaelB wrote:I'm almost certain that WCS only supply 4mph chairs, they don't want us killing ourselves.

4mph isn't safe out in the real world. The only time i've come close to being killed was because of not enough speed rather than too much. Broken traffic lights at hyde park corner - one policeman waves me across the road, get halfway across then another policeman sets off 5 lanes of traffic at me and I couldn't get out the way quickly enough banghead

Tell the WCS they are restricting you to never being able to run out of the way of danger.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 18 Sep 2018, 22:49

At least there are police. Its a free for all here. Every time you cross a busy junction someone parks over the only place you can exit the 5 or 6 lanes of lunatics due to the traffic. So if you are too slow, no way off the junction!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby expresso » 18 Sep 2018, 23:18

6 mph is the slowest any chair should go - if someone really needed it slower than that for other reasons - they can program that in - but its dangerous not to be able to get off the road - out of the way from a car or anything at that speed - you cant - it does the opposite of what they think they are doing -

refuse it period - the chair has a 6 mph option - or else bring BM with you to rough them up a bit :lol: :lol:
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 18 Sep 2018, 23:44

WCS won't allow any mods


Why would you care WHAT they 'allow" ? They are civil servants, not the wheelchair police.
I sawed the swing away footrest mountings off the first 6MPH Sunrise F55 that they paid for under protest, all bar 200 because of a lighting actuator... WHILE THEY WATCHED! Albeit In horror. The OTs and physios were all running around like headless chickens, and came back in around 4 hours with a disclaimer about it being at my own risk, which I just ignored. I explained that since they made me put some money towards it, it wasnt their place to decide what I did. It was partly mine. By then I had my home built single centre footplate fitted anyway and was sat in it. What were they going to do?

1998. Thats when my WCS frustration period and subsequent campaign began. After they initially refused to get me a suitable manual chair to even allow me to leave hospital, that folded etc so I could drive. Or get through my unmodded house doors. In the end I bought one cash, and made them buy me a spare 1.6k Kuschall manual. Same year they told me that they wouldnt supply a powerchair never mind a 6mph powerchair! That worked well for them as well! After I refused to wait to be assessed. I just assessed myself, and sent it recorded delivery to the hospital administrators, and wheelchair services and a few other departments. with a time limit before I bought the chair myself, of a week, and if no asessement I would take them to court for the money and the damages. I was assessed the same week. For the 6mph Sunrise chair I had already assessed and bought. They then paid for it. 98.

They seem to think that stating what they will and wont allow, in spite of their written remit, and your needs and rights will work.

It only works if you LET THEM GRIND YOU DOWN. Thats how the system is designed. Its a socialist medical institution. Every time someone tells me that its an institution and I cant change it, it winds me up. So I do. If they were to do their job properly, we would never even need threads or actions like this. And they know it.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby expresso » 19 Sep 2018, 00:34

your right BM - but at the same time - its not easy and many just cant deal with the stress and everything needed to be done to get it your way - correct way to begin with - but in the end- you have to take a chance and gamble go all out - 99 % of the users dont even care or know or have the will to fight them so they accept what they are told and given and are happy with it - or not happy but think theres nothing they can do -

always something you can do - the question is then are you up to the task of doing what it takes - and is it worth it - etc, it depends what the issue is - if its worth a fight or not - for a chair - its worth it - for other things sometimes it just isnt - you have to pick and choose your battles - which are most important to you

also if you have a back up in the meantime - you may not worry as much since you have something in the meantime - but if you have nothing and really need a chair period - then you may consider just taking it and fight it after - its not easy to not accept a chair when you really need it - also bear in mind BM you can do alot of these mods on your own or with very little help so its easier for you to say no - and fight while doing it yourself

but lets get real for a moment - 4 mph is not acceptable for anyone - at least anyone who knows what they are doing etc, and uses the chair - reverse speed is faster - 6 mph is Fair at least -
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 19 Sep 2018, 01:02

All true. But this attitude is what they rely on. And it works 99% of the time to allow them to do what every socialist system does. Waste mountains of other peoples cash, and produce very little actual "product" or service in this case, in highly ineficient fashion. They spend a fortune on paper pushers, training, meetings, documments, t=studies, assessements, not of you but of each department and method, and the bills are enormous! Not much left for actual powerchairs. Hence the "system"... The delays.The panels. The rules. The w a i t s ...

Always remember that the system is not trying to help, or to give you a suitable chair. Its primary purpose as in all socialist systems, is to spend as little as it can get away with, and to be sure that everyone hides behind protocols, paperwork, rules, and ensure that no individual is ever responsible for anything. Everything must be decided by committee or "panels" of experts with a mountain of qualifications and vague plans or equally vague ideals and no clue. Your job is to put them all on the spot and MAKE them or someone responsible! Staying inside their carefully planned system doesent do this.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby MichaelB » 19 Sep 2018, 13:10

Absolutely no need for the stress, far easier and more beneficial to use other government services, if I got a PHB it might be £5-6k buying a £13k chair I'd have to put £8k, Access to Work a £13k chair they pay £9k I pay £4k.3rd chair in 3 years plus I have my WCS chair as a back up. No need to destroy the system use your brain and get the most from it. I appreciate not everyone can do that but it is about using what you have access to when you can.

And the system does rely upon them dealing with a majority who have enough of a struggle getting through life and just being happy to have a chair given to them, ultimately it is a system which helps those in need albeit at a cost but that is just the way the NHS works, inefficiently!
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby Burgerman » 19 Sep 2018, 13:21

Absolutely no need for the stress, far easier and more beneficial to use other government services, if I got a PHB it might be £5-6k buying a £13k chair I'd have to put £8k, Access to Work a £13k chair they pay £9k I pay £4k.3rd chair in 3 years plus I have my WCS chair as a back up.


I might do the same if I was able to work. But like myself having just spent 2 years trapped on a bed most of the time, we cant. And in any case its the principle of the thing. We are entitled to something that suits our needs. I paid plenty in when working. Also that 6k they give me every 3 years is also better than nothing! Doesent cover the whole bill, but its close. And its cash so very flexible. I choose everything, how many chairs, modded, home built, used, trade, retail, who repairs, etc.

And of course the more they get away with handing out unsuitable chairs the more people like steves1977uk above, get lumbered with unsuitable equipment by the "system". He cant work either. So unless he has other income sources, and most dont, the crappy spectre chair, with weak, unprogrammable controller, 2 pole 4mph weak motors, small wheels, small casters, and super nose heavy frame means he will be all but trapped at home and unable to take part in life in the outside world with any range (small batteries too) and any kind of safety or ability to drive on what is laughingly called pavements.
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Re: Personal Wheelchair Budgets

Postby steves1977uk » 19 Sep 2018, 16:26

And of course the more they get away with handing out unsuitable chairs the more people like steves1977uk above, get lumbered with unsuitable equipment by the "system". He cant work either. So unless he has other income sources, and most dont, the crappy spectre chair, with weak, unprogrammable controller, 2 pole 4mph weak motors, small wheels, small casters, and super nose heavy frame means he will be all but trapped at home and unable to take part in life in the outside world with any range (small batteries too) and any kind of safety or ability to drive on what is laughingly called pavements.


That's true BM, I wish I could work, but can't due to various health problems and only have my benefits as my income. :( I have to wait a good few months before I even get the Spectre. I believe it comes with 50Ah batteries, which won't get me very far outdoors :cussing

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