PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Irving » 10 Oct 2019, 08:56

Yes, and having a 'sensible' joystick with time displayed is useful (not appreciated until I got r-net) but I still like to wear a watch, I dont feel dressed without it. Plus it has some sentimental value too.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby wheelie junkie » 10 Oct 2019, 17:34

Weird one today, put off road wheelchair batteries on charge, went back to find screen saying elapsed, 84% done. It usually is around 98% done. Is this a problem with charge profile or batteries? Chair is in the garage and I can't get it in the house to monitor a charge and I ain't going into the freezer to do a test charge :)

A123 LiFePo4 High Rate.PS8
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 10 Oct 2019, 19:06

Several things...

Thats not one of my modified profiles and has 4 or 5 hidden settings set incorrectly.

Its also got 'fuel' turned on, which does NOT work on LiFePO4. Its also got curves set up for A123 instead of Generic LiFePO4 so wont work at all. It has low voltage start point set to 2.7 instead of 2.55V, it has a too wide 5mV gap set for balance (should be 2) and start point set to -2mV wich is too soon. it has termination set to auto, one 20th of charge current, which means that it will always end charge too early, it has the balance charge start point set to 3.3V which actually UNBALANCES the cells during charge, chould be set to 3.5 or balance only at CV, it has the temperature set to drop charge voltage by 50mV every 1 degree below zero instead of off, although that wont bother you at room temp. It has CV timeout set to 1 hour which means it will not have time to rebalance cells after the 3.3V start earlier issue has unbalanced them, or reach the correct MANUALY choosen CV charge termination point (and thats set to auto/C/20 which is wrong) and fuel should be set OFF, but its on, and is set to a 60mA battery capacity... Its also set to auto cell count instead of 8 which limits the upper and lower cell voltage limits at start and can cause errors on charge start, and the cell gap maximum is set to 250mV which means that it will go to a safety charge current of just 500mA. That needs to be set 350mV and to start at a higher voltage. Or if the cells are unbalanced it will enter safety charge mode. And stay that way to completion. Which means several weeks on a big pack. And, the point where it senses this is set way too low as well. And charge timeout total is set 8 hours max and the discharge timer is set to stop after 12 hours ... So will require restarting several times on discharge. And cell over voltage safety is set to a huge 4.35V! And will ruin the cells if the charger overshoots when starting or if theres a momentary discharge like moving the chair while charging. And a few I missed.

Frankly I am surprised it charges at all!
You cannot just take a generic charge profile and use it. For one, theres at least 5 important parameters that are hidden from you that you cant change with the pl8 software directly as it is. So even if you set most of it right you are still screwed. And all these set badly for large LiFe packs.

What cells, and what Ah is this pack?
I will find a suitable profile.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby wheelie junkie » 12 Oct 2019, 10:15

Thanks, I've got 2 sets of LiFeP04 batteries one 8 cell 100ah, the other Headway cells in 2 packs totalling 60Ah.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 12 Oct 2019, 11:31

Gimme an hour, guests... If I forget then remind me!
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 12 Oct 2019, 19:27

Use firmware 3.3...

For 60 and 100Ah.
If all is balanced on screen, and the CV stage continues for more than 2 hours after this then increase the termination curent by 25% and rinse and repeat. You are aiming for around 1 hour at CV once all cells balanced. Hard to guess because of cell type and age. But should be close.

Those are both set to 16A charge. If your power supply and cables are up to it, you can increase that to approx 30A and 40A as you wish.
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LiFe PO4 8S w Bal 60Ah term 80mA.PS8
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LiFe PO4 8S w Bal 100Ah term130mA.PS8
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby wheelie junkie » 13 Oct 2019, 09:29

Big thanks, will give them a go and see what happens. Thanks again
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby ex-Gooserider » 15 Oct 2019, 04:21

Confusion say: man w/ one watch know what time it is, man w/ many clocks never quite sure... banghead :P :fencing

(of course Confusion never had NNTP server.... :ugeek: )

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Burgerman wrote:I threw away my watch decades ago. Why?

Theres one on the wall in my bedroom, kitchen everywhere I go in fact, clocks!

Theres also one displayed on my powerchairs.
And one in my phone on the front...
And one in my laptop, and in my PC.
And one in my 4X PL8, 3X Hyperions, 4x cameras, in my 2 TVs, my fridge, my oven, my microwave, my central heating wall programmer, my van in 3 places, my satnav, radio, hifi, RC transmitter, my PC printer glowing blue, and my fluke logging multimeter, even my stupid electric razor, and my 2 washing machines! And more. I really dont see the point of adding another on my arm.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby shirley_hkg » 16 Oct 2019, 03:28

How difficult is it to replace DJI MAVIC2 ZOOM batteries ? :wave:

Chips to be cracked ? czy

Advise to charge with PL8? cheers
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 16 Oct 2019, 10:06

Lipos are only good for around 20 to 100 flights in a quadcopter.
The main thing that ruins them are:
- Very heavy current draw. Makes them gas and swell, and therefore go high resistance.
-The other think is charging them and not using them. A 100 percent charged battery, can/will swell and be ruined if left 12 hours only if the temperature changes.
- Rubbish BMS allowing cells to bounce over voltage.

So buy a new pack, or recell with hobby lipos, similar spec, and just use the PL8. Throw away the BMS? I dont have one, so dont know if that bms also connected to flight controller?
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby wheelie junkie » 19 Oct 2019, 18:42

So I charged with PL8 software and the BM preset 130mA and watched cells as cells gradually increased in voltage, chage rate dropped from the 12A it was set to to about 200mA and when they hit 3.600v charging stopped and cell voltage then started to slowly decrease in software cell monitor window.Is this normal or are the cells supposed to stay at 3.6v? I stopped PL8 via software with cells at 3.53 v and charger showed stopped rather than done and a %.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 19 Oct 2019, 18:57

Thats normal. Just like lead. You charge lead at say 14.7V until 8 hours and or 1000thC current, and then the voltage drops straight away to 13.4V or so, and overnight 13.25, after a week, 13V, after 3 weeks, 12.9, after 3 months 12.85V.

Its still full.

You CANNOT determine state of charge from cell voltage on lead or lifepo4.
You can only say, full, empty, or in between... Thats why FUEL is switched off.

You should have allowed it to complete. Why did you stop it? It will stop itself when it reaches the mA level set. If after 4 hours at CV and balanced, it has not reached this point, then you can stop it. It should never display a % as it CANNOT know. You should be watching this on the first few cycles at least on a PC. Not on an apple...
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 19 Oct 2019, 19:05

So I charged with PL8 software and the BM preset 130mA and watched cells as cells gradually increased in voltage, chage rate dropped from the 12A it was set to to about 200mA and when they hit 3.600v charging stopped

No, it hit CV (3.6v) while at 12A charge, and THEN reduced charge current to allow the voltage to not go over 3.600V, over time. It is charged when the current falls to the 130mA that I set. But if power supply is not stable, it may stop sooner as it wiggles about as the supply varies. But 200mA is OK too. Provided that all cells are at the same voltage. You probably need a PC to see this.

and cell voltage then started to slowly decrease in software cell monitor window.Is this normal or are the cells supposed to stay at 3.6v? I stopped PL8 via software with cells at 3.53 v and charger showed stopped rather than done and a %.


Correct.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby wheelie junkie » 20 Oct 2019, 16:41

Just tried my 60ah pack and it dropped charge rate before hitting 3.60, it then sat at around 3.596/7 for about an hour 30 minutes and 160 - 200 ma charge before I had to hit stop and get transferred back to bed thanks to the pressure sore. That was with 80ah termination so I will increase the termination to 120ma for the next charge and see if I can get it to about an hour. I watched the charge in the software cell window. When I switched off PL8 screen showed 100% charge, much better than the last charge. Do you have to disconnect straight away to prevent voltage gradually dropping?

There are a couple of parameters I can't find in profile, how do you get to see them?
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby steves1977uk » 20 Oct 2019, 17:59

Tick the Advanced Properties under Presets tab WJ, then you should see more options. :thumbup: Which parameters are you wanting to see?

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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby steves1977uk » 20 Oct 2019, 18:12

wheelie junkie wrote:Do you have to disconnect straight away to prevent voltage gradually dropping?


There's no way to prevent the cells dropping to their natural voltage after a full charge, as it's perfectly normal behaviour.

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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 20 Oct 2019, 18:49

Hes trying to do it without a PC connected.

Just tried my 60ah pack and it dropped charge rate before hitting 3.60,

AS it should, when the first cell reaches 3.600V or a little less, while it draws 1000mA from it. It slows charge to not push the high cell above 3.600V.

it then sat at around 3.596/7 for about an hour 30 minutes and 160 - 200 ma charge before I had to hit stop and get transferred back to bed thanks to the pressure sore. That was with 80ah termination so I will increase the termination to 120ma for the next charge and see if I can get it to about an hour. I watched the charge in the software cell window. When I switched off PL8 screen showed 100% charge, much better than the last charge.

It shouldnt show ANY % level at all. It cannot know.

Do you have to disconnect straight away to prevent voltage gradually dropping?

Same as lead. After you charge your lead at 14.7V the voltage DROPS afterwards no matter what you do. For the 3rd time now. The voltage DOES NOT = STATE OF CHARGE.

There are a couple of parameters I can't find in profile, how do you get to see them?

IN WINDOWS you tick the advanced tab. And you will see most of them. Theres around 5 or 6 you cannot ever see. But I can. Hence use MY profiles. Not any of the default ones included. Load mine.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby steves1977uk » 20 Oct 2019, 19:14

I charge to 3.575v and the CCS displays 3.573-3.574v for all cells when it's dropping the current on a 5yr old Headway pack, but volts don't matter when it finishes charging.

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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 20 Oct 2019, 19:28

Think of it this way. You are adding Ah - not volts! You are LIMITING the charge volts, to protect the cells. And making sure all are reaching the carefully controlled safe OVER VOLTAGE full point, at a low current, to be sure each cell is both full, and balanced without damage.

When you stop charging, they are all full, but the voltage no longer held high. The cells return to the natural working voltage.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby wheelie junkie » 21 Oct 2019, 12:01

I was wanting to see cell gap maximum and cell over voltage. The software runs as expected, no glitches and no reason for any as it does with any USB device I've used it with once you sort out Windows f'cked up device manager. The mac knows you have connected a USB device and asks whether you want it to communicate with the Windows or Mac OS, click Windows and then make sure that device manager configures itself. Replacing the FUIM3 lead solved all my initial problems and now PL8 software runs as it should. Using Parallels is a lot easier than bootcamp for USB connections.

The confusing part with volts is the chair battery left gauge , I don't use the lights on my off road wheelchair my friend fitted a display for watts used but I don't have an equivalent one on the Juvo.

I had to stop it as I was being put back to bed, only got 2 support workers for an hour in the afternoon so am limited by that. Support workers don't understand the connections and software so I have to knock everything off whilst I am with them. Very limiting through the day as it is after 9 when up and 3pm back to bed. F'cking vent always needs 2 people for transfers in case trache gets pulled out. Pressure sore limits the time I am up, decided not to do 24 hr bedrest with this one, it can just take longer to heal.

201020194 Volts.JPG
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 21 Oct 2019, 12:08

What was the current, at the 1 ,5 hour charge poing? Set that as your termination point. And set the max time at CV to 2 hours.
I left it less than this, and left a 8 hour limit to allow a freshly built pack to balance which can take many hours.

The confusing part with volts is the chair battery left gauge , I don't use the lights on my off road wheelchair my friend fitted a display for watts used but I don't have an equivalent one on the Juvo.


The chairs battery meter will not ever be able to tell you anything useful. With lead, and especially with lithium. Its a feelgood thing for dummies.

IF you know the actual discharge Ah or watt hours on a full pack, then you can safely then run it to 90% of that. Voltage will not tell you anything useful on your chairs display. Or in fact it wont tell you much even if you had an accurate digital volt meter untill you get to the last 1/2 to 1/3rd the charge.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby steves1977uk » 21 Oct 2019, 16:28

wheelie junkie wrote:I was wanting to see cell gap maximum and cell over voltage. The software runs as expected, no glitches and no reason for any as it does with any USB device I've used it with once you sort out Windows f'cked up device manager. The mac knows you have connected a USB device and asks whether you want it to communicate with the Windows or Mac OS, click Windows and then make sure that device manager configures itself. Replacing the FUIM3 lead solved all my initial problems and now PL8 software runs as it should. Using Parallels is a lot easier than bootcamp for USB connections.


I'd say Parallels is causing your Windows VM to act strange, and a lot of Mac users have issues with it... https://forum.parallels.com/forums/wind ... ussion.60/

Windows device manager is fine for me on a native PC, never had such issues. But I realise you can't use Windows natively WJ. :(

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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby wheelie junkie » 21 Oct 2019, 19:07

Unlikely to be Windows, hardly any USB problems and majority seem to be Catalina/Parallels 15 neither of which I am using for running Windows, after the earlier problem with FUIM3 I've kept to tried and tested versions. I do have Catalina and 15 on an external SSD but haven't tried a charge/record although they're working OK with R Net and Wizard as well as a USB recording thermometer.

Most of those problems are crashes, PL8 software doesn't crash and if I write a preset and subsequently get it back from PL8 it is exactly as written. Watching the cell monitor and looking at the graph they seem be the same.

Charge varies from about 120mA to 210mA depending upon the cell bypass which I assume is correct,it certainly seemed to be linked. Voltage would increase a little but never hit 3.6, cells were balanced according to the monitor window. If I had left it longer it might of reached 3.6v. I'll alter termination to 130mA and see how long it spends at CV before hitting it. This pack is older than my Ottobock pack so I do expect to have to play around. It could probably do with a long balance CV as I was using the incorrect profile BM commented on.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 21 Oct 2019, 19:31

It will never actually reach an exact 3.600V as the cells and cables all have resistance. If the charge current falls to ZERO then it would reach 3.600V. That voltage isnt at the charger, it is during the OFF periods in the pulse width charge signal. So actual battery volts. And depending on is set to 3 decimals, or 4, it is rounded or averaged.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby shirley_hkg » 22 Oct 2019, 02:17

Share with us if any discount coming , as THANKS GIVING is near.

Need a backup.
cheers
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby wheelie junkie » 22 Oct 2019, 14:53

Ok, think that I understand what is happening now. On my off road chair it gets left unused for months at a time over winter. What voltage would be best to charge 2 as I know fully charged isn't the best storage option. 60ah pack.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 22 Oct 2019, 16:26

You cant charge it to any voltage. You can only charge above 3.5v and that will give 100%.

If you dont want to damage the cells then you need to store them at 50 to 70% full. Not at 100 percent charged.

The only way to do that, and to ensure that the cells are all balanced is to fully charge and then remove 1/3rd the Ah. And when you recharge later, an extended CV may be needed as the varying self discharge level will have likely unbalanced the cells to a degree.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby wheelie junkie » 23 Oct 2019, 10:20

Is it possible to have a preset to do a balanced full charge then discharge to 50% capacity or do you have to watch a discharge and switch off manually when 50% of amps has been removed? I noticed that you can do a balanced discharge as well.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby Burgerman » 23 Oct 2019, 11:19

No you cant. You can TELL IT to do a balanced discharge, or charge. But you CANNOT balance LiFePO4 cells at a voltage that is lower than 3.45 to 3.5V because it will UNBALANCE them severely. The voltage does not = amount of Ah.

The voltage can even encrease as you take out Ah. So the act of balancing UNBALANCES the cells, sometimes all day long.

You MUST charge to 100% untill the current falls to a very low level, while the voltage is at a level above 3.45V. This happens faster at 3.600V.

Then you must remove (WITHOUT BALANCING!!!) around 1/3rd the Ah if you dont plan on using the pack. Storing them full is one of the things that damages cells rapidly.
You can only do that sensibly by discharging them with a load, or using the PL8 which takes time. And watching it. The actual level is not critical. 30 to 70% charged is fine for storage. So if discharging at say 2A, on your 60Ah pack, you could just set it discharging, and after 10 to 20 hours, stop. Thats 20 to 40Ah out. So its not critical.
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Re: PL 8 - Q and A section - How to Set up - Use etc,

Postby wheelie junkie » 23 Oct 2019, 12:19

OK, got that, I'll use PL8 and watch the discharge, you can see amps going out so should be easy enough to do. Pity that you can't set a preset to stop at a preset number of mA out.
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