this way, no way

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this way, no way

Postby malamar » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:29 pm

Image

This is a pic of one of my last accident, the one of yesterday night, vhen the chair climbing an initialy low curb, found it rising to the side in height to no hope of climbing it (at night, low visibility) caster yawing instantly for a new rhumb line an tilting the chair over me after spitting me over the macadam between the late car traffic.
Must say that i 'm fed of this steering joystick system, unreliable at best, depending on amperage but no real hard linkage to directing wheels A RIDGE IN THE FLOOR AN YOU ARE AT MERCY OF WHO KNOWS WHAT. Chairs are way to heavy for rolling down a poor baby in the street- I'll do my best effort to get an electric scooter, even with all the penalties to be incurreed, but my mind wil lbe more free from aleatory driving, I hope..
Cheers all
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Re: this way, no way

Postby Burgerman » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:40 pm

A RIDGE IN THE FLOOR AN YOU ARE AT MERCY OF WHO KNOWS WHAT


ALL factory chairs I agree.
Any chair with the delay, accelerations on turn, decelerations on turn, with correctly set motor compensation steer EXACTLY like a scooter, or a computer mouse. It simply goes EXACTLY where you tell it and theres no "mercy" involved..

The casters do not follow ridges, they follow your commands absolutely and precisely. No powerchair does this as you get it. 95 percent (at least) do not steer properly.

One of the first pages I added to this site was the page on programming because its simply essential to get proper control, to do ALL of the settings at the OEM or Engineering level. No dealer, or end user or chair tech guy from your provider can, or will do this.
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Re: this way, no way

Postby malamar » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:58 pm

Not discarding being mistaken as ever, I truly believe that a solid steer would had given me more feedback of what was lying ahead in the dark than an electronic joystick,but there is a blood toll to pay, before knowing it for sure .
Chair is off square, Penny destroyed...a true mess...

the crime scene

Image
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Re: this way, no way

Postby Burgerman » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:56 am

You went up that mild slope and lost control? Thats what normal "safe" powerchairs do.

As I have mentioned before. 99 percent of powerchairs go where they, or the feeble elecrics and awful programming let them or make them go. Not where you wanted to go. Making then steer and drive accurately is easy, but for reasons better known to themselves the manufacturers just dont do this.

In any powerchair, if you want some accurate sensible DIRECT and controllable power and steering you MUST make sure you have the following correct (for a normal grown adult):

--The best 4 pole motors of low impedance you can get on your chair.
--6mph maximum, more is a disaster for control in difficult situations. Less is dangerous.
--Heavier/shorter cables (battery and motors) than any manufacturers currently fit.
--100 amp or better controller.
--Controller MUST be programmed as per THIS page - all of it - (essential): http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerch ... amming.htm
--Mid drive, or rear drive with C of G moved back so the chair is responsive and most of your weight is on the drive wheels.
--LOW impedance batteries like the Odyssey PC1500, as MK Gel or worse just doesent cut it once you do the rest of this list, the batteries become the limiting factor, if you want great control on ramps or in difficult places.

Do ALL of the above and your chair will drive just like a PC mouse, or a car, or your pencil on a page. It will simply go exactly where you intend, without a thought. You will never think about it again. It goes straight when you tell it. It turns when you tell it. It STOPS turning when you tell it. It climbs when you ask it to. Its just becomes easy transparent and normal. and you simply dont think about it. NO stock chair is like this. To me they are all unusable and dangerous.

Dont do ALL of the above, and just go wherever the chair decides to take you. Most dont realise how good it CAN be. If you are reading this and thinking your chair already goes where you want, then you simply have no idea.
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Re: this way, no way

Postby malamar » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:25 am

See this time You missed also a better controller in the rush....
Now, after so many big scares,I have it perfectly clear at last..I think...; one point I'm still dubious till the next half suicide is that one where electric power on board is man enough to do better than a terrified by the incoming hole arm and corresponding hard steering column ____The problem that they don`t make actually a dual system mobility machine, (joystick and solid handlebar steerer), is one to be revisited an addressed, in my opinion: in scooters they already have two separate driving channels ( via differential) to be configured at will....
Must urgently consult my wife`s nephew ; lately he has been in charge at NASA of the design of meteo system on Mars probe "curiosity" . You should see him back-engineering.... playing video games at the same time... :o
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Re: this way, no way

Postby Fulliautomatix » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:20 am

Burgerman wrote:Do ALL of the above...
Dont do ALL of the above...

But!!
For many people & use a nicely programmed controller will do the trick.
It may well be that Malamar has the drunken wanderings of the standard programming.
I was talking to a chin control user today and he said 'it would be much better if the bloody machine did what you tell it to!!'....from someone who does not use anywhere the power of the machine - ergo - had only the controller to blame for not being able to get it to go where he wanted it.
I propose that there is a whole group of people like this - they move slow and don't go out much and still run into door frames and walls.
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Re: this way, no way

Postby malamar » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:37 am

But
Programming is a much talked about item but nothing a simple outside customer, without special inroads in the industry or commercial ties, 'd be able to bring home and enjoy: so is something unreal for the bulk of customers. Only real sureshot solution i can foresee for myself is a souped up Travel Scoot, manouvered in place by feet: what a shame of industry !!
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Re: this way, no way

Postby Burgerman » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:21 pm

But!!
For many people & use a nicely programmed controller will do the trick.


No it won't.

It helps. But is only about half the problem.
8mph motors? Heavy user? Gel batteries? Stock cables? Nose heavy chair? Weak controller? Weedy 2 pole motors?

ALL or any single one or two of these above, mean that even with a well programmed controller the chair has not got adequate torque (power) to steer on a ramp or curb as shown in Malamars picture no matter what the controller "asks" for. So you lose accurate control.
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Re: this way, no way

Postby malamar » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:22 pm

8mph motors? only 6

Heavy user? no ballerina

Gel batteries? not tasted,but it looks like

Stock cables? not open battery bay yet

Nose heavy chair?.not an easy wheeler for sure

Weak controller?Sure they put the cheaper one in the chair

Weedy 2 pole motors? yes

got all the Lottery tickets,it seems
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Re: this way, no way

Postby Burgerman » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:01 pm

Yes. Thats why it doesent go where you choose, but does go where it wants.

Programming alone will never fix it.
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Re: this way, no way

Postby malamar » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:15 am

So at last we arrived at the final turn of this long and winding road, one that could be called " how to go where you intended to go precisely when being a "happy" WHEELCHAIR DRIVER and not to die in the intent...

Approx estimate ex labour cost.

Initial crap chair, new or used.............................................

Odissey batteries .............................................

Upgraded 100+ electronics`.........................................

High torque 4p motors (x2) ...................................

2+2no flat pneu tyres .......................................

Who hnow the right prices, eg ex GB, PLEASE FILL OUT
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Re: this way, no way

Postby Burgerman » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:47 am

As usual theres many ways to do everything.

If you buy a chair with 4 pole motors and group 24 batteries and 100 amp controller to start with you wouldnt need to do all that afterwards. Just swap some cables for better ones, reprogram it, and when the batteries die swap for odyssey.

Alternatively, start with the wrong chair, then change everything, so it costs the same as a new chair would... :shock:
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Re: this way, no way

Postby malamar » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:19 pm

Reprogram how ??
! already got two dongles and no one worked with my computer savy, laptop,windows type or software used.... :cry:
In all i've ve just got this ill life of mine, and with too little of it, already guttering away,
left to spend in pursuing some non decisory rather tiny discount or occasion....If I need it desperately, and just can arrive to pay and get hold fast somewhere, i'ii do without even looking backwards...
Cheers
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Re: this way, no way

Postby Burgerman » Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:51 pm

What controller do you have?
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Re: this way, no way

Postby malamar » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:20 am

Pg VR2, don't know the (a) number, never seen stated
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Re: this way, no way

Postby Burgerman » Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:47 am

http://www.pgdt.com/products/vr2/vr2driv.html

50 TO 90 PRICE DEPENDENT.

Programmer will tell you.
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Re: this way, no way

Postby malamar » Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:00 am

i 'm charging chair on a pallet, then a truck and sending everything to Sunrise Factory in Northern Spain to have it straightened up, mainly a lot of pieces half mounted and pissed all over the pavement whose precedent location I ignore: the biggest blow was on joystick, swinging mount distorted, but to general amusement and personal relief it escaped (apparently) any major damage, an there ii follows, singing an controlling as yawly as ever.... Thinking on how to get out of where i am and where i entered freely and alone, now, i see mee as next move changing batts for Odisseys and the present controller (that's not cheap) for a bigger one able to manage the current needed.

Motors I'll do nothing before melting them down on inclines two miles long, i suspect...
salut
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Re: this way, no way

Postby Burgerman » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:33 pm

It will already be able to manage the current from the 2 pole motors. Thats the problem, its all or nothing.
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Re: this way, no way

Postby malamar » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:09 pm

an idea: put i've been bllessed natively with a srv2 60 module,changing it for a 90 caliber one, wil it better the steering,all others factors remaining equal?? or as much changing for odissey, batts being conceptually expendable sooner or later so the idea i accepted personally as a normal maintenance
thanks
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Re: this way, no way

Postby Ashley G » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:25 pm


Is there any chance that you can make your local authority pay toward the cost of your upgrade ?

I don't mean by telling them it's an upgrade. I mean by pointing-out that they are supposed to make provision for disabled access. That kerb looked lethal to me.

The Law is different in different countries, of course, and in the UK right now we can exert pressure with the Equality Act. If they don't provide (and maintain) enough lowered kerbs where they should, they can be held liable for compensation for injury and damage, as well as the fines which follow if they don't put the problem right, quickly.

Is there nothing like that over there which you can use ? Or get the local newspaper interested and show the pics of your damaged chair and wounded hands ....

Regards

Ashley

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