S646se - Full LITHIUM Pack Project - First Attempt

[Scollard]

Well as you have pointed out there are a lot of combinations. You just have to figure out which one works best for your situation.

[Burgerman]

Crimps, thin metal, unsoldered. And 32 of them... Personally I would solder. Dont trust weak crimps. Easy to do afterwards.

[LROBBINS]

One can solder after crimp even with heat shrink or insulated terminals without damaging the insulation. Use a little flux before crimping. Apply the heat to the bare part of the ring terminal near to, but not touching, the insulated barrel, and touch thin solder to the barrel opening near the iron. Solder doesn't need to fill the whole barrel, just flow into the open end. The "rule" in aviation is to do both if you don't have single-purpose crimper and go-no-go gauges for your terminal - crimp for mechanical support and solder to insure conductivity. Soldering without or before crimping can give solder flow back into the unsupported wire, which makes it brittle. NASA probably has its own procedures for space-vehicle wiring, but those can be a bit much - for example, they don't permit plastic tie wraps, but require old fashioned lacing to a very detailed spec. Ciao, Lenny

[Burgerman]

You can get away with a bit of flux on the solder and do it from the terminal ring end afterwards most likely. If it runs into the wire its done. Without taking anything apart. Solder quick, cool with wet cloth or sponge.

[expresso]

you know - since i didnt install anything yet - i can just redo those 4 wires - since i have all the other items anyway - but a good crimp with those marine rings heatshrinked etc, - its more then strong enough for this purpose -

i am willing to redo them since i didnt install them - but if there were installed and in the tray in the chair etc, - i wouldnt redo that - because i did test it - i pulled a few times - but also has a few others much stronger then me to give it a pull test -

it was pulled on before i heatshrinked it - and then after - it wont be coming off on its own thats for sure - unless it gets hooked on something and then extreme force pulling it apart - - which i dont see that happening once all done in the chair -

just to put my mind at ease a bit more since i am new to crimping also - i actually dont use the crimper - i try to hold the wire in there for the girl to crimp - i will try to adjust the crimper to make it bit tighter if i could - i left the way it arrived -

i think theres a little screw to remove - and turn it to ether plus or minus - then screw it down - i am going to guess that i need to turn it to the plus side a notch more to make it tighter -

i really dont see any way i can solder after i crimped and heatshrinked it - impossible that i can see - these marine grade 3m heatshrink rings were made for crimping and heat it down - its glued - solid - i bet even if its not crimped perfect - but heatshrinked tight - it wont even move then - but i am not going to test that with my pack

[shirley_hkg]

It is really unnecessary to redo the wires. They are for the add-on only, after all.

Just cut the excess shrink tube at the ring end to expose the wires. Sand paper the spot lightly. Apply solder there and lead will flow into the terminal , with a bit of flux and 380 degree C

[Scollard]

Everything Shirley just said leads to corrosion. I think that may be what has flummoxed BM in the past. It wasn't poor crimping, per se, but maybe a loose crimp and it corroded. You do not have to worry about that with Marine Terminals. They are waterproof and will not corrode. If you expose them to solder then you also expose them to possibly rust. Corrosion is what really messes up the conductivity. Crimp them, put the ring on a nail, give it a really strong pull, if it doesn't come apart you are good. Shrink it and its watertight. That is how it's supposed to be done.

[Burgerman]

I agree that a crimp done correctly, with a terminal that has a lot of metal in it is great. But the small cheap terminals are just thin, soft, weak. The strands can move, fret, or pull out. And the crimps are not tight enough to prevent oxidation and bad high resistance connections in time. I have seen too many fall apart, fray, etc.

Once soldered nothing can get in to oxydise it.



Which is safer and less likely to pull out or Oxidise?

[Burgerman]

Crimping alone requires heavier thicker walled connectors, and a better crimper than a hand held tool if its to be any good. At least in larger sizes that we are using.

[Burgerman]

Heavy walled, no seams. Correctly crimped excludes oxygen, no oxidation and secure.

Very hard to find today.

[Burgerman]

Most are now made from bits of soft copper tube. And zinc coated. Because its cheap. Not adequate for crimping alone - too soft. And almost always include a drilled, stamped or cut hole to add solder.

[Burgerman]

That said, its up to you!

But having worked on cars and bikes all my life, I have lost count of connectors that dont! They come apart. Worse they look fine at 3am in the rain under the car, but it wont run. Only in daylight do you find all the copper in the crimps is black and oxidised to death from the weather or salt. Soldered ones do not fail. And it only takes a second!

In small sizes, done correctly, where they will never see water crimping with hand tools is fine.

[Burgerman]

Even so, outdoors? May be pulled? This is better.

[expresso]

Ok i feel the Ratchet crimper i got - with a thick wire to get a good crimp - does work good - using the marine rings with 3m glue on them - then just seals the deal - done - - the only issue is if your wire is small - like the balance wires - those next time i do them will thicken the wire end once over and then crimp - they are all done now - i pulled them before and after i heatshrinked them down -

i redid the other wires since i had all the items to do it - i think they came out decent enough - i used the hydraulic crimper with some solder in there - crimped it - torched it - heatshrink it -

i did the bottom end of the pack - added the wires - how it think is best - was a good day of progress -

[expresso]

pics

[expresso]

7th row

[Burgerman]

All looking good. Be sure to test by charging fully. Allowing to balance on the initial charge. Then taking at least 10Ah out with the charger. And recharge. And lok at the curves BEFORE you fit it. It will show up any problems like a bad connetion or loose bolt etc.

[expresso]

All looking good. Be sure to test by charging fully. Allowing to balance on the initial charge. Then taking at least 10Ah out with the charger. And recharge. And lok at the curves BEFORE you fit it. It will show up any problems like a bad connetion or loose bolt etc.

thanks - i think it does also - i am surprised how nice its starting to come together - i would be very surprised if i had a issue once all done - i am making sure of everything best i can - but hey its my first time so - and mistakes happen

i will test it the same way Scollard tested his before actually putting it in the chair - which i never test fitted but i guess its going to have to fit now -

i may have the bottom done this weekend - then wait for a friend to flip it next week - maybe Wed. - and continue on the top - will take my time - i have more wires to make - charge cable to make - a few XT90 connectors to solder -

but i am not rushing - timing is very good - if all goes well - May should be done in chair -

[Burgerman]

105Ah of lithium will take you as far as 150Ah of lead. At least. Plus you will save 60lb so add another 10 ot 12 percent. Same as 4 and a bit MK gels.

Add that addon, and you have the equivelent of 210Ah of lead. Or 6x MK gels! With the same weight as 1.3 of them.

That should get you far enough from home to be worried! Make sure you have an addon connector somewhere.

[expresso]

105Ah of lithium will take you as far as 150Ah of lead. Plus you will save 60lb so add another 10 ot 12 percent. Same as 4 and a bit MK gels.

Add that addon, and you have the equivelent of 210Ah of lead. Or almost 6x MK gels! With the same weight as 1.3 of them.

thats pretty cool - first time i will be free not watching the joystick - battery life hopefully would be a thing of the past

i like that ADD ON - i can easily just hang it and plug it in - instant 15 miles extra - if i even need it - once i get used to my distance with it and see how far i can go - - i want to go from NYC to NJ - over the GWB - and back -

i think i can do that with the 105ah alone - but maybe i add the extra to make sure -

Doing the ADD ON First - was my practice and experience - i looked at the pictures from when i started that - early on - and then after added the 3rd row - - ran into the issues - redid it - looked ugly - redid it again - then remove BMS - and
when i compare the pictures - Before and AFter - MUCH better looking - cleaner - all the blocks snapped in correct - big difference and charging it perfect - best it can be charged - cant complain -

that experience helped me and got me ready for this pack - much more to learn as time goes for sure -

[Burgerman]

Next week, we will all be learning to build Liquid fueled rocket engines. I already had some success in the 90s and can show how its done!
Trust me its exciting and doesent always go to plan... You will need liquid nitrous oxide, kerosine, some stainless steel...

[Scollard]

Looking good Expresso. Watch your numbers and make sure you hook it all up correctly.

I think BM finally sees how it's all going to fit together.

Do I get any props for thinking outside of the box? Literally!

[expresso]

haha - good luck with that - i am good with this - i need to learn more as i go along - i may stir some interest in the summer when i can share this with others - get there reactions - i know some will take interest - but they all may thing its a real plug and play - which is almost is - in a way - but needs effort to do what it takes - which in my case means - i had to not only get all the tools needed to get it done - then learn to use them - harder part is directing others what to do also

but i got two of my PCA's who i was able to get alot done - better than i expected - just cant expect them to lift anything this size - the ADD ON is even too heavy for them - i guess the timing was right - i did get feed up this past summer - got stuck twice - battery issues - i know the limits of LEAD in distance etc. - so i either accept that and leave it alone or make a change - the winter started and i knew i had to do something to keep busy indoors or else it would be a long winter -

i REALLY only wanted to do the add on - and was just about to HIT Enter and buy the ready made pack from EV. - then i said ok - what the hell - i do the ADD ON - but didnt really thing i was going to really get this involved - - my idea was just the ADD ON - BMS to use dumb charger and move on - didnt take long - i got the PL 8 - PSU - and started the project - after that - i seen how the BMS work - and at that point - no reason to leave it - i had what i needed - getting the help from others here -

or else summer comes again and i be at the same spot as always - complaining about the batteries - and knowing i can go only this far lets say - and thats it - might as well enjoy it while i can - i am treating myself to a nice sausage onions and peppers with provolone cheese for dinner - been a while since i had a good one - home made -

some wine - take a nap - after a hard days work

[expresso]

Looking good Expresso. Watch your numbers and make sure you hook it all up correctly.

I think BM finally sees how it's all going to fit together.

Do I get any props for thinking outside of the box? Literally!

i have to say Scollard - i didnt see it this way at all - with out you helping me step by step - thinking the way you did and passing it along to me - i would not have taken on the full pack - i wasnt going to do the 72 cells the other way - i seen how it would give me issues with the space - my chair is tight - the divider is limited how much i can move it up - i have other devices there for the tilt and seat lift etc, -

but this was doable - the 90ah would be a breeze to fit - this i think 99% i can make it fit -

Scollard your a great teacher for sure - if you can teach me - you can teach anyone

BM - i know i drove you crazy over the years also - with batteries - chargers etc, - alot of us here just dont know what you guys know and comes easy to you - so patience -

so Scollard - i am good to go - ? i can finish the bottom now - locktite it - add the caps and be done with it -- then have it flipped -

yes i will check the numbers again and again for sure before i flip it back and after again - the top Row - Neg. is Cell 43 i think - starts there - from left to right - 0 to 8 -

i have the Green light to finish it up ? the bottom at least


or should i say - if i can learn it - many others can also even if you think you cant - with the right teacher and help - you can

[Burgerman]

I think BM finally sees how it's all going to fit together.

Nope! Seems to me the large bit is too big, and the small bit has nowhere to go! But I dont know the chair... Will see soon enough.

[expresso]

Ok - all done on the bottom - locktite - caps - ready to be flipped - you can see the tray it will sit in fits perfect - just needs to be flipped over right in the tray - and i can work on the top -

[expresso]

sitting in the tray - upside down -

[expresso]

flipped over and in the tray - this is the way it will go right in the chair - i just have to figure out the layout on the wiring on top etc, - and i think its better if i built up the inner rows to bring it up to level with the orange tabs - can use sheets or rubber and some foam i have thats used for computers - glue on one side and foam for cushion on the other - to quiet in the inside of computer cases - which i never used for that purpose but many other uses i find for it -

the wiring lay out - i am thinking of leaving the first row of screws for the balance wires and charge wires only -

the 2nd screw for the Chairs Main leads only - pos an neg to anderson for the chair power -

and 3rd screw to run wires to the top 7th row -

would that be fine - or any reason i cant use the 2nd screw for the chairs main power - or do I need to use the first row ?

[expresso]

pics

[Burgerman]

Now I see what you are doing. That seperate top layer only needed two thick wires. one at each end and just some thin balance wires really. But the thick cables wont hurt. Just bulky.