4 Pole Motors

[bongchow79]

Were do you get your 4 pole motors?

Is there a sight on the net to get these motors?

What are the best motors on the market these days?

With the price of so called durable medical equipment threw the roof is there any DC electric motor aftermarket companies that put out a good product??????

Thanks for your info!!!!!!!!!!!
Bongchow79

[Burgerman]

You mean for my own modified powerchairs here? http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/ultimat ... rchair.htm

I choose to use the best balance of range/torque/speed as an adult heavy user that I could find. I just order Sunrise Medical 6mph 4 pole motors as used on the latest F55s powerchairs.

I dont think there is a cheaper way to get suitable motors. Powerchair motors are very carefully designed with smoothness and efficiency, with almost zero noise or gear backlash (important in powerchairs) designed to last a very long time. Thats expensive unfortunately.

They even use a type of Plastic or PTFE/phenol or "Delrin" in the case of EMD for internal gears in some of the better built motors (optional) as it allows the gears to have almost no wear over time. So it can never develop any "backlash" or "extra wear" in use as metal gears will always eventually do even if its slight.

And it allows them to be run with zero or even a slight negative running clearances due to the slightly flexible (compressible) nature of the materials to make sure they have absolutely zero backlash, or any free play or clunks/noise in operation. And that they stay that way. With metal gears a sensible running clearance in the gears is always required even when brand new to allow for manufacturing tolerances and temperature variations.

Dont worry about strength. These types of gears are just as strong, and last longer and weigh less. If I cant break a nylon/ptfe/delrin gear in 12 years of reprogrammed curb jumping abuse its not likely very possible! So while steel or bronze gears sound "strong" they are actually less good in this application.

And the better quality dc motors are also very "efficient" electrically with fancy rare earth magnets in the best (expensive) ones. This along with closer running clearances inside the motor case (less magnet gap) increases efficiency and range/power by making less heat and more power ideal for powerchairs. (Where our range and battery size is always an issue/compromise) aproaching even the the efficiency of some brushless motors in some cases. So cheaper industrial motors whilst available are really not suitable or good enough here.

The part number of the ones I use are:
10 kph 4 pole 182001.30002 RH
10 kph 4 pole 182001.30003 LH

And they are complete with brake, gearbox etc ready to fit. And they fit all previous F55 powerchairs directly even if it has old 2 pole motors at the moment.

These are very powerful 4 pole 6mph geared (with 14 inch normal wheels) and offer the best balance of torque/range/speed used with typical group 24 70Ah batteries on an "all day" indoor/outdoor powerchair with a well programmed 100 Amp controller.

4mph versions are available and better for range, smaller batteries and smaller control systems or seriously fat people that live in a hilly area!

8 mph 4 pole motors are a step too far unless you weigh very little and dont need true all day performance.

Motor brushes for these 4 pole motors
are Sunrise part number 182132.30001 (4 for one motor)

From any decent uk or commonwealth sunrise dealer.

[bongchow79]

Thanks!! Just out of curosity what do the motors set you back? On your sight you mention the constant replacing of such motors, I think you mentiond a year or two worth of abuse.. I know your hard on them, just as I am, there our legs they need to be powerful and responsive... Thanks again for the info!!

Bongchow79

[Burgerman]

About 500 a pair plus VAT which disabled should not need to pay.

Offset by the money returned by selling used ones to robotics people making robots, rc mowers (dont ask!), kids powered toys, electric bike conversions, vehicle winches and many other project builders via ebay. Soon on here.

I dont really NEED to replace about half of them at all, but do replace before failure as a precaution once I build/or rebuild a powerchair every year / 18 months. And if one does actually fail then rather than get replaced at rebuild time its partner is still fine but gets replaced anyway. Keep them in pairs!

Breakdowns are not an option! I would rather have my chairs (all 3) like new. Most people get a lifetime of use from a single set without issues. Or at least 5 years heavy use. Wheras I continually rotate three chairs and rebuild the oldest every year or so to better than new state and move on to a pre built "one we made earlier"!

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/ultimat ... rchair.htm Goes to a web page. I have one like this one. (latest and by far the best)

A picture.

This is a 12 year old very abused and murdered several times powerchair... On its third re-incarnation. Cost 1700 uk pounds. 2500 us dollars to rebuild and modify in a bedroom to this standard including knackered donor chair from ebay for the main frame and seat frame... All three of my chairs together costs less than 1 inferior bought powerhair.

And 2 more the same, but with normal (although tubeless) tyres. One is absolutely unused. Thats the spare. The other used for a year and is about to be stripped and refurbished (including new motors) and the same fat tyre/narrowed frame and other re-engineered parts ar the one in the picture I am using now...

Then a year from now I will do the last narrow tyred chair the same again with new motors. Its an ongoing system where I have 1 in use. 1 as standby (and a brand new rebuild), and one in bits being evolved, rebuilt and refurbished. Been happening for 12 years now... So I always have new chair every year, and always have a NEW backup, and always have one under construction... And always have used motors for sale...

A bit OTT but as you say its your legs. They have to be good and they have to work and have back ups! Ordering new parts, or motors for the one you are using isnt very useful if you need one to get on with your life. It pays to be organised.

[alexapc]

I did crack one of these plastic gears and funnily enough after 366 days of use. If I find the picture I'll post it.

I tried to contact Leroy Somer (motor manufacturer) directly for the gear and they through up some legal agreement with Meyra (wheelchair manufacturer) saying they couldn't do that.

Thankfully Meyra didn't dare argue with the one year + one day timing, they sent me a new one and I bought the second. All in the very fast time of one whole month!!

[Burgerman]

Really? That surprises me,

The gears in the motors I use are like a PTFE material. Its called Delrin. You can put a gear in a vice and smash it and abuse it with a hammer and it just deforms and bends and after a while goes back to 99 percent of its original shape no matter how much its bent.

I didnt used to trust it (these gears) and was ordering metal gears. Not brittle at all and kind of unbreakable. All that fails in those gearboxes are bearings (not very often! (one is 12 years) and the keyways on the input and output shafts wear. Eventually. And even then only when used with a severely reprogrammed controller that is a "bigger amp" unit than they were intended to be used with. And that also demagnetises the motors over time too...

If you look at the maximum torque values on the chart for their "delrin" (nylon/ptfe) gears compared to the Bronze (and steel) gearboxes they are almost identical. so there should be no difference in outright strength and all the other properties are better. Given the choice as an engineer (and I have this choice) I prefer the "plastic" gears over the metal ones any day. And thats the choice recommended by the manufacturer for this application too, and the one that Sunrise (Quickie) use. You can see all this data on EMDs site in a comparison .PDF file. This motor is available from EMD at the same price with either metal or plastic gears.

But I have no idea what plastics (or metals for that matter) or design, that Leroy Somer use. Could be anything. I have seen broken steel/bronze gears as well! Usually stripped splines or gear teeth due to wear over time or soft metals with incorrect hardening or design.

And used to drag race a very fast 300 bhp Nitrous injected Suzuki. (I used to build nitrous systems www.nitrous.info and tune engines and build automotive dynamometers) It used a nylon rear sprocket. (Because its lighter) The chain snapped several times on a hard launch over the years... Sprocket lasted forever. Same on many road bikes. There was a craze for nylon sprockets for a few years. They didnt wear. And the chains lasted longer and they saved weight and were quieter. And more expensive... And lubrication of these things isnt really needed.

[Burgerman]

Added. Make your powerchair faster!

http://www.rushgears.com/ Wont be cheap but if you only want a few gears this looks good.

This place will make you any sprocket, gear or gearbox bits in metal, Delrin (plastic, PTFE, Nylon) and has calculators and design software etc online. Want taller gearing? Not sure about strength or design? This allows you to do it anyway. Get some made. It will allow you to customise your chair with steel, delrin, bronze gears in any ratios you choose!

I never used them personally as I have a guy in a company called xxxxxxx Gears, that will do me one off jobs etc.
But it looks good from a design perspective!

Want more speed? With shorter battery life/range and less torque / power? Get a taller final drive gear made! This can be OK for skinny/small people with a low average distance covered day.

Want more torque or range? At the expence of speed? Get some shorter ratio gears cut. This is good for many Americans or fat Europeans! (Tin hat on!)

[Lord Chatterley]

So you want to buy a pair of new motors-gearboxes for a F55s?
Simples.
You write to Sunrise and EMD and see who offers the best deal.
Only they don't bother to reply.
A week or 2 later you get a nice incomprehensible reply from what I assume to be a proxy of EMD called Parvalux who will indeed sell you a motor-gearbox but you need to buy a manufacturer's full batch - ie TEN plus vat and postage - and you'll have to wait 6 weeks or more for delivery!!!!
Meanwhile Sunrise finally get in touch and say they will sell you a pair if you have an account but they don't tell you how to get an account and the retailers who they recommend [whose prices are generally 5 times higher than ebay's] don't return your phone call.

Excellent!

[Burgerman]

EMD are not geared up for retail sales and dont do "standerd" motors. You have batches made to your spec. So its not practical price wise to build less than 5 chairs or 10 motor/gearbox combos for them. So they supply oem manufacturers like Sunrise. They supply powerchairs and spares to the public. Us...

There are hundreds of dealers.

You need to find a good one thats all.
Most do more with electric beds, tap turner oners, walking frames, etc and powerchairs scare the to death.

Clarkes is OK and will ship straight to you but you will need to google the address/number. I used them a good few times.
Never mind I did it for you!
www.clarksmobility.com/

You can get prices and part numbers from Sunparts Online with the pass and user name "guest" and "guest" here:

http://parts.sunrisemedical.eu/uk/login/login.php

Foe all sunrise UK stuff... Remember you dont pay VAT! But if you order a wrong part via a part number its your problem...

[Lord Chatterley]

Clark and Partners are the rascals who promised to return my call yesterday, and didn't... and today...and so far... haven't...

[Burgerman]

Clark and Partners are the rascals who promised to return my call yesterday, and didn't... and today...and so far... haven't...

People are busy, forgetful, lazy, or efficient keen and enthusiastic. You never know who you will get. I found them pretty efficient. You just need to ring up and push them a little to get them going again!

Life is frustrating.

[Lord Chatterley]

They just replied that for the f55s they can get -
If f55s was made after 3 Jan 2003

182001.3002
182001.3003
302ukp

If f55s was made before 3 Jan 2003
182001.6308
182002.6309
288.29ukp

or with suspension
182641.6313
182641.6312
340.67ukp

??????????????????????????????

[Burgerman]

The mistake you are making is that you are actually listening to these people! Or asking them for advice. Next they will be asking you for the chairs serial number! So they can send you out some replacement nasty 2 pole weak fragile motors to replace like with like... Because they are trained to do this and dont know what fits what.

Whilst thats guaranteed to "fit" and work (PRETTY BADLY) with your programed settings they are dismally fragile and totally lacking power. In 2003 they figured out (in part due to me) that their programmed settings in all the F55s powerchairs already in use was wrong. (they had the compensation setting set to a lower value that actually worked great for the new 4 pole motors)

So rather than admit to a mistake that left all the pre 2003 2 pole powerchairs so gutless they can barely be steered they decided to supply 4 pole motors as the "fix".

The strongest most powerful and most reliable are the very latest 4 pole ones as per the ones in the start of this thread!
I fit those to all of mine. They are very good and almos unbreakable and are a match for the settings in the older powerchairs too. So it makes no sense to fit the "correct" old weak 2 pole motors.

Some of mine are 13 years old.

All will fit.
The way the wheels attach changed very slightly and they brought out newer wheels that didnt wear so badly in the centre on that key that transmits drive. (it simply has a steel insert in the centre now.) But the old wheels should fit anyway even though they tell you to order the new wheels at the same time. The bit of the shaft that the wheel goes on is the same.


Use
182001.3002
182001.3003

As I said here
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p13

As they are the good ones.

The others are useless!

[Burgerman]

Been thinking.
You may need a couple of different shorter wheel spacers than you have fitted now. (or a few 20mm washers instead from aan ironmongers) with the new motors.

Since the shaft is a bit fatter where it comes from the motor then slims down to the correct diameter for the wheels. I wouldnt know since I use home made wheel mountings and different wheels entirely...

But its a minor technicality.

[Lord Chatterley]

Yeah, silly me. What was I thinking? Now how do I go about reclaiming the VAT - when I can get out to the bank through 4 inches of snow!

[Burgerman]

You cant.

You have to "not pay" vat in the first place.

You send a VAT exemption form with your order if its for your own disabled use and tyhey dont charge you vat. I think mos mobility places have them already but I just make my own up.

Just delete the header and footer from this one which is actually one Penny and Giles sent me when buying power modules...

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... onform.doc

Fill in, save, fax to wherever, or email it, with order! And another 17.5 percent of 600 quid saved... Good here isnt it!

[Lord Chatterley]

Yeah it's great - now where are the pole dancers?

[Burgerman]

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/images- ... athing.jpg

Sunbathing...
Someone mentioned this picture earlier today.

[Lord Chatterley]

A cheque for life-membership is in the post !!

[TwoTeasChris]

Re. new 6mph motors

Use
182001.3002
182001.3003

Having found that my 2nd chair also has 2-pole motors I going to order some of these. We don't need 8mph here. We're not rebels.
Has anyone found anywhere cheaper/gooderer than Clarks?
http://www.clarksmobility.com/

[Burgerman]

Have you been on the sun parts site and checked all the bits you need? Make a note of the price and the part numbers of every part your rebuilds will need. Eg arms, bottom brackets, upholstery, swing away mounts etc. Its false economy to try and save money. Do a thorough complete rebiuld on each chair. Any part that isnt as new, replace. You wont regret it.

Once you have your complete list, ring around for best prices for the lot. Use a vat exemption form... Fax the parts list. Dont expect anyone to take back wrongly ordered parts make sure you got it all right! Take time and think. Make sure you get everythin you need to rebuild 2 chairs as new. Or better. That way its cheaper than a new chair and BETTER!

Doing half a repair job is false economy usually.

With motors you need ideally wheels...As the keyways wear on older ones unless used by a grandma. Or corroded on...

This is why its best to do a total strip, examine, and replace anything not really as new.

EG Armrest not totally as new? Replace... Etc. Total cost doubles. But you have as new or better than new chair for 1500 as I did. Be a perfectionist! Its actually cheaper in the end. I am even more extreme and order two or three of everything and have 3 perfect chairs!

[TwoTeasChris]

Just to confirm. When replacing 2-pole with 4-pole the brake voltage remains at 12v, yes?
(I can here them clicking on and off but something's started squeeking.)

[Burgerman]

12v maybe mouse in battery compartment.

[TwoTeasChris]

Do I need to get the mouse trap powder coated?

[Burgerman]

Stainless steel is better here.

[TwoTeasChris]

Wensleydale?

[Burgerman]

No I think a bit of cable insulation works better.