Power Wheelchair "Veteran", but "Noob" for features

[steves1977uk]

Very very sorry...

It has it uses though BM!

Steve

[Burgerman]

True...

[Colin uk]

To give you some idea of whats possible I just offered and was accepted £4400 for this chair linked below, with a centre power footrest fitted in place of the swing away ones. Its UNUSED and is the highest spec possible. Every expensive option was ticked. Even a faster 10A charger.

It was ordered new, sold in Aug, and returned the same month unused for whatever reason. Maybe too unwell or worse...

A £12K chair (I added up all the stuff on the prescription form), for all intents its literally brand new, for 1/3rd the price. With a 12 month warranty and power centre footrest included.

I used 2/3rds my Power Wheelchair Budget to pay for it 1 hour ago...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUNRISE-QUIC ... Sw0GlfiE7A

SAME seller has many cheaper chairs for sale too.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/SOLUTIONS-MO ... 7675.l2563

Nice buy! Looking forward to seeing what you do to it

[Burgerman]

Me too!

To begin, 6 degrees dump angle to the base. Esp as I will be fitting 2 inch smaller tyres to the front.
Program it so it can actually hit a doorway...
Then see how hard it is to widen the point where the casters are, - to allow the seat to go back 2 to 3 inches. No idea if that easily done or not. It wont be... Lifes like that!
Then look at the width of the heel part of the centre footplate as the whole thing looks wide. Not sure what to do there yet. I have a hacksaw and a grinder. We will see. Maybe a different centre footrest will be needed. EBay. Dunno yet.

Definitely fit a set of those 8 inch caster tyres here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10042#p162994 As that will gain around an inch in rearward seat position alone. Already ordered 2 sets.

Then see any other ways to move seat back a little and configure to fit my backside etc.
Dont like seat backs. So may swap that.
Might fit a set of the same rims as the salsa on the rear. Since I have a set spare!

Its got a gyro. Those always make chairs drive oddly. So that will go on eBay. And those are not cheap!!! So will help pay for the chair some more.
The 10A charger adds 350 to the bill so will end up on eBay too. Since it will undoubtedly charge badly. They all do...
And then theres the batts, lithium at some point since theres still going to be 1 to 2k of that WCB left.

So nothing major. A little thinking. It will likely always end up more nose heavy that the salsa. And so worse to drive. But it will mostly be a backup and indoor chair designed to help my pressure sore issues.

I will start a seperate thread so as to not hyjack this one.

[steves1977uk]

BM, if you don't want the Gyro then send it this way. I'd like to test it out on one of my older chairs just to feel what it does to the driving experience. How much would you be asking for it?

Steve

[ex-Gooserider]

First off, welcome to the forums, you've been getting a lot of good advice...

A few things..

1. Invacare sells the same 'H-frame' RWD chairs under several names - Arrow, Storm, Torque, Ranger-X and possibly others... The frames on all are the same, the differences are mostly the accessories in stock trim, and things like motor choices, etc.

2. Airlines should NOT be taking your batteries out, or otherwise taking your chair apart - the rules require that you must be able to disconnect the power or take other actions so that the chair can't be turned on accidentally.... However as long as you are using 'Sealed' (i.e. gel or AGM) batteries they should NOT be removing them. It is also a good idea to remove the joystick pod (which by itself makes it impossible to turn the chair on) and any other fragile / easily removed parts and pack them in a carry-on suitcase in order to protect them from the baggage handling gorillas...

3. Your provider really can't stop you from adding any kind of 'bolt-on' modifications - as long as you can return the chair to 'as delivered' configuration whenever they want it back, they have no grounds for complaint (however the mods can't break their stuff, and you can't expect them to fix them....) Of course one of the advantages of getting a used chair is that YOU own it and can do whatever you like to it.

4. Even with the best chair suspensions, solid tires will give you a rough ride. A tubeless tire w/ sealant is just as reliable and will soak up a lot of smaller bumps and irregular surfaces that will go right through any other suspension. You will also find your choices in solids are very limited.

5. Do you / your parents have access to any kind of machine shop / welding services? This can be a big help in getting things you want made...

6. You need to be a very strong self advocate - don't let a supplier tell you what they are going to give you, instead INSIST on getting what you need... It sounds like you are dealing with a government agency for your chairs, if so, don't be afraid to contact your elected officials (Senators & Representatives in the US, I believe you have 'Members of Parliment'?) as they can often apply heat from above to get things unstuck... They approve budgets, so agencies dependent on them tend to be responsive.... They want to keep getting re-elected, so they like doing things for constituents in hopes of getting your support... Burgerman is from the UK, so probably a different system, but the general techniques he uses to work the system still apply...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Gyro. Dunno yet! I tried one for a laugh before. It makes the chairs drive horribly. No amount of setting fix it other than turning it off...

It rmoves feel, adds unpredictable response and seems to make turn in place worse. Personally, I cant see any benefit unless our hand (or feet) control is horrendously bad. Or on a topsy turvy front drive chair to try and make it more stable at speed. Permobils own one isnt any better. Arguably worse. So gyros? Nope!

I will see what they are going for on ebay and see what I can do for you to play... But it wont be soon...
I might just disable it, and have one profile with it enabled just for fun. So I can remember how bad they are! You can drive your chair. So have no need of one. It just does what you do yourself without thinking about it. So removes "feel" and feedback. Which can then surprise you when it starts spinning a wheel or something on an uneven ramp for no reason.

[steves1977uk]

Fair 'nuff BM! Rover did ask if I wanted one fitted to my Dietz chair, I said no.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Trust me, you can drive your chair accurately right? You wont need or like one I dont think.

[steves1977uk]

Yes I can BM. Sorry Moosh for taking your thread OT!

Steve

[Moosh89]

No problem! I actually learned something new, that I don't need a gyro module

First off, welcome to the forums, you've been getting a lot of good advice...

A few things..

1. Invacare sells the same 'H-frame' RWD chairs under several names - Arrow, Storm, Torque, Ranger-X and possibly others... The frames on all are the same, the differences are mostly the accessories in stock trim, and things like motor choices, etc.

2. Airlines should NOT be taking your batteries out, or otherwise taking your chair apart - the rules require that you must be able to disconnect the power or take other actions so that the chair can't be turned on accidentally.... However as long as you are using 'Sealed' (i.e. gel or AGM) batteries they should NOT be removing them. It is also a good idea to remove the joystick pod (which by itself makes it impossible to turn the chair on) and any other fragile / easily removed parts and pack them in a carry-on suitcase in order to protect them from the baggage handling gorillas...

3. Your provider really can't stop you from adding any kind of 'bolt-on' modifications - as long as you can return the chair to 'as delivered' configuration whenever they want it back, they have no grounds for complaint (however the mods can't break their stuff, and you can't expect them to fix them....) Of course one of the advantages of getting a used chair is that YOU own it and can do whatever you like to it.

4. Even with the best chair suspensions, solid tires will give you a rough ride. A tubeless tire w/ sealant is just as reliable and will soak up a lot of smaller bumps and irregular surfaces that will go right through any other suspension. You will also find your choices in solids are very limited.

5. Do you / your parents have access to any kind of machine shop / welding services? This can be a big help in getting things you want made...

6. You need to be a very strong self advocate - don't let a supplier tell you what they are going to give you, instead INSIST on getting what you need... It sounds like you are dealing with a government agency for your chairs, if so, don't be afraid to contact your elected officials (Senators & Representatives in the US, I believe you have 'Members of Parliment'?) as they can often apply heat from above to get things unstuck... They approve budgets, so agencies dependent on them tend to be responsive.... They want to keep getting re-elected, so they like doing things for constituents in hopes of getting your support... Burgerman is from the UK, so probably a different system, but the general techniques he uses to work the system still apply...

ex-Gooserider

Thanks!

3.
We have discussed buying the Invacare front forks with suspension and keeping these forks for when it's time to return it. We likely will.

4.
I may be swayed to try tubeless/pneumatic. Again, I have major anxiety about making sure they'll stay at the proper pressures or how often you need to check them. I know regular air compressors aren't recommended, but what about one of those handheld ones like an "Airhawk"? It would be something to keep stashed close by in a vehicle or even ON my chair so I'm never caught low. And they really can't be punctured?

5.
My Dad is a pretty good welder by trade, has his own welding unit and has a good relationship with the welding shop in town as he used to work there for years. Anything he doesn't want to do on his own, he takes in to the shop and has them do it. But he's built a lot of stuff over the years like aluminum racing chuckwagons, bike parts, trailers, etc...

6.
Yeah, we deal with "SAIL" - Saskatchewan Aide to Independent Living". We advocated hard for things for years. My Mom is one of those "seek and destroy" personalities when it comes to getting things done LOL. I'm still "in training" under her, learning her ways lol. She had been pretty timid when I was a baby and she was just getting used to having a child with a disability, but after meeting with other Moms, one of them pulled her aside and told her the old saying "Squeaky wheel gets the grease" and that's when she was reborn into an advocating/red tape cutting machine lol. She just needs to be reminded again, and that's my job now. Thanks for reminding me!

[swalker]

I often use pneumatic tires with tubes on my wheelchair. I use Mr. Tuffy tire liners to reduce the likelihood of a flat and have not had a flat in over 5 years or wheelchair riding.

But, a flat will eventually happen. So, I carry all the tools needed to repair a flat in a small pack on the wheelchair at all times. I also keep a bicycle pump strapped to the side of the wheelchair seat. I can't fix the flat should I get one, but I am confident that eventually some capable person will come along who has the ability to do so. I live where there are many bike riders.

When at home, I use this to keep my wheelchair tires inflated: https://www.amazon.com/Rechargeable-Com ... 358&sr=8-3 Note that one is listed for a crazy price. I think I paid around $30 for mine. I am on my second one in the last 25 years.

I probably should check the air pressure on my wheelchair tires weekly. I actually do it once every month or so.

I really prefer the ride quality of pneumatic tires. I also use foam filled tires, especially when I am planning to do extensive riding on asphalt.

If you go with tubed pneumatic tires, be sure to get high quality tubes from name-brand manufacturers. I once wasted my money on a no-name chinese set on Amazon. The best I could tell was that they never fully vulcanized. The valve stem ripped out easily. They were totally unsuitable for any use and especially unsuited for wheelchair use.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Did you see this thread? 12k chair, every goodie in the prescription form (for me) ticked, and they are swapping the footrests for a power centre footplate. A 12k chair, unused, for 4.4K.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10062 -- Bought that yesterday, because it was a good deal, and ticked every possible box. It took several years of patience to find exactly what I wanted at the right price though.

[Burgerman]

Heres a slightly lower spec (not much!) mid drive one. As new. A few tiny marks from storage only.

This is cheaper mostly because theres way more mid drive ones for sale. Any low budget can afford this. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUNRISE-QUIC ... SwKtdfSXWc

Heres a few more. https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/solutions-mo ... 7675.l2562

[Moosh89]

So, Mom's strongly considering that 2017 Storm Torque 3 for $4,700 CAD. She's calling about it today. It has the Mk6i electronics, so no LiNX. I asked her to make sure it has 6mph, 4 pole motors or better. I would post the link but I'm unsure of forum rules regarding live auction links with interest in them. I'd hate for a lurker to swoop in and nab it before she has a fair shake

I sent an email inquiry to Curtiss Wright about quotes for a new R-Net setup:

120A Controller
Omni 2 Interface
Compact Joystick
Basic Seating Module
Tilt Module
Lighting Module
Bluetooth PC/Android Module
PC Dongle/OEM Software

But I haven't heard back yet after 2 days. I did find the 120A controller on eBay for $200 CAD which I saved to my watchlist.

Can anyone tell me a ballpark estimate of each component in USD, from used to new?

Anything else in regards to converting an Invacare Storm Torque 3 to R-Net?

Since we may be getting a big chunk of the project (the chair) soon, I think I'll start throwing together a budget to appeal to some sources of funding to help with the cost.

[steves1977uk]

You will need the motor and battery connector kits from CW if you plan on keeping the original motors and wiring looms. Also order a couple of spare R-net bus cables since they're cheaper if you buy direct from them.

Steve

[Moosh89]

You will need the motor and battery connector kits from CW if you plan on keeping the original motors and wiring looms. Also order a couple of spare R-net bus cables since they're cheaper if you buy direct from them.

Steve

Got a link?

[Burgerman]

Personal opinion. You are way better off finding a chair that already has R-Net if thats what you want.

Because otherwise things get complicated if you dont know what you are doing. Yes that means nothing from invacare.

And buying this as a one off from PG Drives (Curtiss) may or not be difficult as an individual. Or in some cases impossible. They will not want to sell you a OEM programmer just to begin with. There are ways though. Later...

The price may be rather high even if they allow it. New prices can be severe! Again it depends who you are, and if they will sell to you and even what country you are in.

You might also read this carefully.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8857

Theres ways to do this very cheaply. Or ways to do it that result in telephone numbers. And PM me for a link to a OEM programmer...

I also think you need a main daily chair. And if you want to mess about, prototyping etc you then build a 2nd chair.

[steves1977uk]

You will need the motor and battery connector kits from CW if you plan on keeping the original motors and wiring looms. Also order a couple of spare R-net bus cables since they're cheaper if you buy direct from them.

Steve

Got a link?

Here's the part numbers you'd need... viewtopic.php?p=78258#p78258

Hope this helps Moosh!

Steve

[Burgerman]

I think moosh's head will soon explode.

You need to sit back and study this lot for a month before making a plan and buying anything.

[Moosh89]

Here's the part numbers you'd need... viewtopic.php?p=78258#p78258

Hope this helps Moosh!

Steve

Thank you

Personal opinion. You are way better off finding a chair that already has R-Net if thats what you want.

Because otherwise things get complicated if you dont know what you are doing. Yes that means nothing from invacare.

And buying this as a one off from PG Drives (Curtiss) may or not be difficult as an individual. Or in some cases impossible. They will not want to sell you a OEM programmer just to begin with. There are ways though. Later...

The price may be rather high even if they allow it. New prices can be severe! Again it depends who you are, and if they will sell to you and even what country you are in.

You might also read this carefully.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8857

Theres ways to do this very cheaply. Or ways to do it that result in telephone numbers. And PM me for a link to a OEM programmer...

I also think you need a main daily chair. And if you want to mess about, prototyping etc you then build a 2nd chair.

We will have a wheelchair specialist shop like Golden Mobility do it (convert to R-Net). And take it to SaskAbilities to get my seating fitted. We owned my second chair (Invacare Action Tiger) and SaskAbilities did the seating and basic repairs.

I'll be keeping this chair I'm using for as long as possible as my main but I do expect if we buy this Torque 3 that once it's converted, it will be my main wheelchair. Then maybe we can tinker with an alternate build for say, outdoor shenanigans once we know what to expect from the process.

I'll PM you regarding the OEM programmer...

[Burgerman]

We will have a wheelchair specialist shop like Golden Mobility do it (convert to R-Net). And take it to SaskAbilities to get my seating fitted.

I am already scared for you. These types of places generally dont have a clue what they are doing.

A single example. Ask them how they will configure the motor load compansation to suit the motors. If they dont give you a proper answer then run away. Its essential!

[Moosh89]

I won't just be dropping a box of parts and components off with the chair lol, my anxiety is REAL I will be ensuring they know what they're doing and I will direct them here as well

[shirley_hkg]

Motor brake release voltage …
My INVACARE pulls off the brake at 24V , and then switch it to 12V as I drive along .

Is Rnet works the same ?

[Burgerman]

Behind the scenes yes. But choice is just 12 or 24.

[martin007]

What is all that you have added?

[Moosh89]

What is all that you have added?

At risk of sounding like a "noob", I don't even know what those components do . All I use is tilt on this chair.

[martin007]

I understand.

Can I ask you a question?
Do you live in a house?
I see you have a lot of room.

[Burgerman]

Lots of room! And less than 1 million people. Its the opposite to most places. Very wild, beautiful and unspoiled.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Saskatc ... 0&dpr=1.25

But not really very chair freindly.

[Moosh89]

I understand.

Can I ask you a question?
Do you live in a house?
I see you have a lot of room.

Yes I do. I live at home with my Mom and Dad. Our current house is 1,427 square feet. It also has a full basement but we don't have a stair lift (yet) so there's more room down there. It's very open so I have generous room to move around. Pictures were taken in my bedroom, which is the master bedroom on the main floor. It's the biggest bedroom I've had but even still, it sometimes feels claustrophobic with my hobbies and equipment

Lots of room! And less than 1 million people. Its the opposite to most places. Very wild, beautiful and unspoiled.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Saskatc ... 0&dpr=1.25

But not really very chair freindly.

Nailed it