New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k change!

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New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k change!

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 00:57

OK I know everyone complains about wheelchair budgets inc me. This is just to show that it can be done.
My provisional budget was £5380. They missed 4 expensive things off my budget so I am currently arguing and just sent a letter. I ecpact them to add aother 7 to £800 to this budget. So it will eventually be around 6k.

I just bought a chair that is "used" as in it was sold and returned in August. Since then its been on eBay. Repeated weekly at £4700. I offered £4400, subject to the addition of a centre power footrest in place of the swingaway power ones it has fitted.

So now this chair will be delivered with every expensive option ticked, inc the 10A charger (a £350 option on its own) and gyro, also expensive. These things are going on eBay. Those will reduce the £4400 I offered by around 3 to 4 hundred. Along with the unwanted curb climber, seat cusion, (I use my own), and the black flat free front tyres. After I sell on a few unwanted parts, inc the switch box system (Crtl=5) I expect to recoup at least £400.


This chair is new. Unused. Supplied and returned in August. Who knows why. Maybe ilness or worse. This chair adds up to around 12K on the order form. I just did it.
So my budget will cover a brand new 12k chair, and I will end up paying around 4K for it. Inc 12 month warranty. So will have around 2k of my budget left over!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUNRISE-QUIC ... Sw0GlfiE7A

You just need to be a little patient and observant. TIME! And a little confidence...
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 01:00

Then its going to need a few mods! To make it usable...
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby steves1977uk » 03 Nov 2020, 01:21

My local WCS keeps claiming the PWB (which they keep calling the voucher scheme! :fencing), can't be used for buying used chairs which I find is a load of bollox. It's up to the user whether to buy used or new, am I correct? They insist on using specific dealers they like to use, but I'm not since I'm buying my new chair through rover. If WCS don't like it then tough! I'm the one using chairs daily like most of us are on here.

BTW, looking forward to seeing the mods you do BM! :thumbup:

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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 02:17

They are calling it the voucher scheme because thats exactly what it is. Thats why they are offering you less, and why they are telling you that you have to buy specific chairs/dealers and not used. On a BUDGET its non of their business.

They insist on using specific dealers they like to use,

Because they get a 40% back hander! They get the discount that YOU could get for yourself elsewhere.

They have not given you a personal budget at all. Its the old voucher scheme that you describe. They SHOULD however and its your right under the law. And then, like I just did (and always did since 2008) you spend the money however you see fit. Including a used chair. The one I just bought is used,under 1 hours use. Still got the tear off screen protector on.

In this case I bought a chair thats never actually been used/driven, a month old, for 4K that originally sold for 12K plus!
With at least 1k spare remaining for other odds and ends.
And with every spec detail I needed including a centre footplate swap over. With 3rd party warranty. For one THIRD of the new price.

Thats WAY WAY more efficient use of NHS funds than them supplying some 2 pole 4mph low spec crap for the same money. YOU can do better with the same budget than they can.

You should tell them that you do not want any part of their old voucher scheme. And that you insist on a PWB instead. And fully assess yourself in great detail inc all prices and prescription forms. Dont let them take the piss.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 02:59

Some pics... Crap photos but you see its condition. Basically new. 4K after ebaying a few unwanted bits.
After fitting lithium 200Ah, around 5.2K. Fully loaded best parts selected. 120Ah power module, 4 pole, tilt, lift, recline, power centre footrest to replace the ones shown, and warranty.

Advanced colour joystick. You can actually see these outdoors. Obviously new... Still has protective plastic on. Mirror and bracket has got to go in the bin!


efe174b9-4274-4c71-b103-81ae5f86e865.jpg


See 10A charger on seat. Thats a 350 quid extra cost. Will ebay it...
Also those terrible swing away foot riggings will be swapped for a centre footplate as agreed.

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ebay...
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8 inch tyres, ordered. Save an inch for the heels!
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 03:11

When it arrives it will be mostly stripped, axles and bearings greased, bolts greased, everything adjusted and configured, and given a damned good clean/polish so that it staus looking good, and no axles, bearings, bolts corrode or deteriorate. Then it will be tested, after smaller caster tyres fitted, seat moved back, some seat base tilt of 6 degrees added, etc. Like all my chairs. Then a M16 bolt added below for the van. And a Lithium 200Ah pack, for 5x the range fitted in the new year. I have 2 to do at once. The salsa still has lead...
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby rover220 » 03 Nov 2020, 07:12

Burgerman wrote:Because they get a 40% back hander!


They dont. if someone presents us with a voucher they get the full voucher value and we invoice the nhs trust the full voucher value. they do get backhanders from manufacturers if they wcs supply the chair but not if it is dealer supplied.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby hank » 03 Nov 2020, 09:41

Nice 1 John :thumbup:
I thought it was a good chair for someone thats why i put the link on.
Hope everything turns out fine for you with a centre footplate/Tyre mods etc.
seat pan moved back. :clap :dance
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 11:43

Rover. Then why do they only "allow" users to use specific dealers, and exclude others. Even specific chairs. I would be highly interested to know. I mean there has to be some reason for that! Do they just offer less £ in the frst place if you decide to use their voucher scheme? Discount already subtracted as they do with the Budget?

Interested to know! I presumed they had special deals arranged. With preferential pricing... You are sure that your boss doesent pay the WCS anything back for this free business? Sound a lot like unfair practices to me. Somehow. Definitely something going on there!

Even so, what steve is offerered is not the budget. But the voucher scheme. Or there would be no stipulations as to which dealer, used or new, eBay (as I just did for a 6mph "used" chair with massive price advantage) or DIY chair etc. That is the whole point of the budget. User CHOICE! It offers advantages in many different ways. Another is that at the end of your 3 or 5 year agreement, YOU still own the chair. That can be used for parts, rebuilt as new, used as part exchange etc. So that if you use your brain you end up with a much better chair, to YOUR specs (8mph? lights, Better seating etc) for the same cost as the NHS would have wasted... And /or several different chairs for different jobs or as backup. Thers a lot of advantages in user CHOICE!

The whole point of the budget.
Remember this, I am JOHN and it says 51 years old. I was when that was produced, but already 3 years in, and original sole pilot scheme member! Ignore that 2018 pilot scheme start it mentions. I was doing this over a decade ago! On my own. It was started because I said I could do better myself with FREE CHOICE to do whatever I wanted, with the same £££ :
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 11:56

Nice 1 John :thumbup:
I thought it was a good chair for someone thats why i put the link on.
Hope everything turns out fine for you with a centre footplate/Tyre mods etc.
seat pan moved back. :clap


I actually had already spotted that one. And a couple of others over the last year. I had discounted it as it had the wrong footrests. But I emailed them and they said they would swap them for the centre power version free of charge. They have many mid drive chairs for sale with centre plate.

I hope it does too! Its just metal. It can be made to submit one way or another!
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby rickystyx » 03 Nov 2020, 12:14

This may be a daft question but if they have accepted your offer why is it still listed? I was looking at it yesterday and it is still for sale today.
ottobock b400 150Ah lifepo4
Swiss-trac manual chair add on with 30Ah Lifepo4 (want more 15Ah headway cells )
Meyra Optimus (PRIME)2 150Ah lifepo4 :0)
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 12:53

No idea. I didnt use EBay. I bought it from their shop over the phone. And the 4400 has gone from my card. I have a bunch of documents and reciepts and instructions, spec, delivery details and a 14 day wait. The reason no ebay/paypal, they take around £300 as a percentage... So its always possible to get a better price with a credit card. And still have credit card protection.

It will say sold sooner or later... Wheels move slowly.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 14:58

Thats:
Q700R Base price £7400 inc Gyro. 6mph 10kph 4 pole motors £0 extra. Includes lights, 120A power module etc.
Mudguard rear £97
Mudguard front £76
Kerb Climber £184
10A charger + £184
Lift Tilt unit £1620
Backrest 90 to 150 degrees antisheer £810
Headrest pad £76
Headrest mount £108
Push handles adjustable height? £162 (not sure if they are fitted)
Sedeo cushion 18 x 18 x 90mm £173
Flat seating Board £108
Arm rest pad £124
power centre footrest £1188
Advanced colour joystick extra £216
Ctrl+5 Switch Box With Free Assignable Functions £702

£12,812 total as ordered new. So £4400 isnt bad! For an undriven 3 month old chair...

Unwanted and to be eBayed, Gyro £??, Ctrl+5 swtchbox 700 new. 10A charger, not cheap! Curb climber 184 new... Ful set black flat free tyres etc. Should at least get me the 400 part back.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby foghornleghorn » 03 Nov 2020, 15:21

Burgerman wrote:Gyro £??

The last gyro I saw on eBay sat around for ages then eventually sold for £50.

Didn't see the point of highlighting it on here at the time as you are constantly telling everyone they are shit so didn't think anyone would be interested.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 15:30

I agree! I may let steve have it. Or may disable it and have it on one profile for fun. If they dont go for much. I cant find one to compare yet so dont know if it has value!

Anyway, what I think of them has no bearing on what its worth in a free market like ebay. True few on here would probably want one. Other than out of curiosity like steve.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby rover220 » 03 Nov 2020, 17:38

Second hand gyro almost pointless unless you have programming and know where to fit it on the chair so it's in the correct orientation.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 17:57

Well yes. But thats not hard is it?

Same applies to all my hobby gyros on helis or in model aircraft. Wrong orientation and we ave exitement!
The programming is easy enough. And people usually buy parts to exchange faulty ones. So its plug and play for them. But if its not worth much then I am not very worried!
The Q700 Front, Mid, Rear drive all come with them automatically. You have to tick a box to remove it and save 350 quid... A bit daft on a rear drive chair.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby rover220 » 03 Nov 2020, 18:01

Burgerman wrote:Rover. Then why do they only "allow" users to use specific dealers, and exclude others. Even specific chairs. I would be highly interested to know. I mean there has to be some reason for that! Do they just offer less £ in the frst place if you decide to use their voucher scheme? Discount already subtracted as they do with the Budget?

Interested to know! I presumed they had special deals arranged. With preferential pricing... You are sure that your boss doesent pay the WCS anything back for this free business? Sound a lot like unfair practices to me. Somehow. Definitely something going on there!



If a dealer isn't on the approved list then all you have to do is fill a couple of forms in then you are on. 100% no backhanders in the voucher scheme purchases I have been involved in.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 19:01

Which begs the question how does a list help the user? And why a list of approved chairs?

It would have prevented me from buying the chair I bought yesterday. 12K chair for 4.4K unused for all intents - was bought and returned in Aug. 12 month warranty.

Thats is a way better deal for the user, in this case me, increases the value of the NHS money. Better spent than any of their approved lists. This is just ONE way that the budget is better than their restrictive voucher scheme. Because I can buy "used" on eBay for 1/3rd retail price.

I agree that the budget isnt the best way for all users. But its the only one that gives us free choice. Many wheelchair services are just continuing the old voucher scheme and giving it a different name. They are imposing all the same rules. And thats NOT what it is. Both are supposed to be available to run alongside each other for a couple of years. Before the voucher scheme is scrapped.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Frank » 04 Nov 2020, 11:33

Then it will be tested, after smaller caster tyres fitted,
Burgerman, I hope you will enjoy your new wheelchair. You are going to fit 8 inch tyres, Do you have to change the rims as well? Does that make the chair lower by 1 inch? You’re also going to move the seat backwards but the overall length of the chair will stay the same, is there a way to make the overall length of the chair shorter? Looking forward for your modifications. All the best.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2020, 11:43

They fit the stock 4" x 2.5" wide rims. Yes it will lower the front 1 inch but thats no problem.

If it is, then you can just use a caster stem bolt that is 25mm longer, and an additional 25mm tall spacer. It already has one as stock.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2020, 11:50

You’re also going to move the seat backwards but the overall length of the chair will stay the same, is there a way to make the overall length of the chair shorter?


A centre footplate, esp when used with smaller tyres (or in the case of the salsa chair with 2" wider caster barrel spacing) allows you to already gain 4 to 6 inches overall length. How?

With swing away seperate legrests, the heel of your foot must be able to clear a reversed caster tyre. So your foot/legs must be well ahead of the front wheel when traveling forwards. A centre footplate allows your heels to be partly between the casters and so much further back. And central. Without any collisions with reversed or rotated casters. So approx 4 to 6 inches shorter overall. It is this that ALLOWS you to move the seat back, because your feet are already further back. So yes it does several important things at once.

SHORTENS the total length by 4 to 6 inches.
Allows the seat to go back too to match, which moves CG back so it steers much better indoors. Has less weight over the casters, and better drive wheel traction. Putting the drive wheels a few inches closer to your bum. It stops the chair feeling like an oil tanker.
Removes the "corners" that prevent you manoevering in tight places or that stop you turning into a doorway etc.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Frank » 04 Nov 2020, 12:31

They fit the stock 4" x 2.5" wide rims. Yes it will lower the front 1 inch but thats no problem
Burgerman, thank you for the information. But the 8 inch tyres you are ordering, are these tubeless or you have to put a tube in them? Thank you.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2020, 12:32

They are actually available as tubeless and tube type. Both are OK, both still need a tube in the stock rims as its not a tubeless rim.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2020, 12:40

Longer and shorter. BEFORE smaller tyres and wider casters and a little fine tuning.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby steves1977uk » 04 Nov 2020, 12:46

Which begs the question how does a list help the user? And why a list of approved chairs?

It would have prevented me from buying the chair I bought yesterday. 12K chair for 4.4K unused for all intents - was bought and returned in Aug. 12 month warranty.

Thats is a way better deal for the user, in this case me, increases the value of the NHS money. Better spent than any of their approved lists. This is just ONE way that the budget is better than their restrictive voucher scheme. Because I can buy "used" on eBay for 1/3rd retail price.

I agree that the budget isnt the best way for all users. But its the only one that gives us free choice. Many wheelchair services are just continuing the old voucher scheme and giving it a different name. They are imposing all the same rules. And thats NOT what it is. Both are supposed to be available to run alongside each other for a couple of years. Before the voucher scheme is scrapped.


I'd be interested to know why too BM, since it seems odd that you're only allowed to buy approved chairs from certain dealers. czy Something very strange there I think. You'd think they'd want to shop around to get the best price. :eh:

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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby rover220 » 04 Nov 2020, 12:53

i have never had a client be told they can only buy an approved chair.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2020, 12:58

Well they DO that when they buy. If they supply a chair. They then only offer you that figure that it would have cost them. Usually approx less 40%. Thats the voucer scheme, plus some for maintainance and cushion etc.

But they are doing the same with me, on the WCB but no restriction on what or where you buy Or build. Used or new. And no questions. Its just a £xxxx into your bank. Then I CHOOSE what to do. I can buy a backup chair, or repair an existing chair, or use it to buy a new chair cheap online or use it to add to say my existing money, or the previous chair as part exchange, or whatever.

After a few years with SENSIBLE budgeting you end up much better off. This chair in this thread for e.g. And when my 3 years is up, I still own it. So its got alue to you. Or to sell. Or to exchange. Or as parts...
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2020, 13:02

Approved chair?
I was told that. In 97. But things may have moved on. But their list of dealers didnt include any that would let me buy an iBot for e.g. Or any number of off road or non "common" chairs. So even if they have no approved list its still restrictive in whats possible to buy.
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Re: New Q700R chair from a Wheelchair Budget - with 1k chang

Postby Frank » 04 Nov 2020, 13:40

They are actually available as tubeless and tube type. Both are OK, both still need a tube in the stock rims as its not a tubeless rim.
BM, Can you buy tubeless rims for these tyres?
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