Reprograming my used chairs

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Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Clif » 06 Dec 2020, 07:58

I just bought a used Quickie QM 710 chair. I got it because it has a seat lift in it. It is a VR2 system. It seemed very twitchy and was hard to keep in a straight line at any speed. It would go 6 MPH no problem. When I opened the programing I found it was the speed was set to only 50%. I thought that was odd since it would go 6 MPH. I changed the speed to 100%. It was completely uncontrollable. Motor compensation was set to 130. I dropped it to 50 and the chair seems great now. I haven't had a chance to experiment with the compensation yet . Did someone who didn't know what they were doing screw up on the original programing? There were no OEM walls set at all and accelerations were already set at 100% and decelerations set at o %.. It did have an inhibit on chair speed when the seat was lifted. That was set to 10% and made it useless to try to move with the seat up since it was so slow. I disabled that which is great to be able to do. The chair seems a little hard to drive a constant speed as it seems to surge a little. It rather fascinating to be able to completely change the way the chair works.
I recently got a OEM R-NET programer to use on my MM X8. I had never been able to look at the programing on my Quickie Pulse 6 with R-NET that I got used and have been using for a while pretty much indoors only. What a surprise to find out top speed had been limited to 60% ! I took it outside for a ride to measure top speed and sure enough it would only go 3.5 MPH. I didn't notice just driving inside. I fixed that but my wife did mention something about not going 6 MPH in the kitchen. I think it is a personal problem and she just needs to get out of the way. I love the R-NET system and am glad I got a OEM programer. They are expensive but my insurance will not pay for a chair for me. Buying a little used chair for $250 and a programer for $430 is still very cheap. Thanks for all the help everyone. I would never even know why a used chair seemed so crappy if not for Burgerman and this forum.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2020, 12:45

I just bought a used Quickie QM 710 chair. I got it because it has a seat lift in it. It is a VR2 system. It seemed very twitchy and was hard to keep in a straight line at any speed.

By twitchy do you mean instant and too sensitive. Or do you mean too low turn acceleration or turn deceleration causing the driver to overcontrol. Or do you mean motor compensation set too high? So too much atomatic correction which is jumpy?

It would go 6 MPH no problem.


Via GPS? How do you know?
When I opened the programing I found it was the speed was set to only 50%.

So if you are correct it must be fitted with 12mph motors that dont exist?

I thought that was odd since it would go 6 MPH. I changed the speed to 100%.
It was completely uncontrollable.


Changing speed o 100 from 50 has one single effect. It doubles the forward speed only. All other settings, and motor compensation ramain the same.
So now it drives exactly as before and presumably does 12mph. Which isnt posible. Somewhere you are getting something confused.

Motor compensation was set to 130. I dropped it to 50 and the chair seems great now. I haven't had a chance to experiment with the compensation yet . Did someone who didn't know what they were doing screw up on the original programing?

If someone fitted a controller that was previously used on a 2 pole motor, then 70 to 150mOhm is a typical correct setting depending on motor.
If fitted to a typical 4 pole than 35 to 50 is a normal setting. Dep on motor. Non of that has any affect og max speed which remains as before.

There were no OEM walls set at all and accelerations were already set at 100% and decelerations set at o %.. It did have an inhibit on chair speed when the seat was lifted. That was set to 10% and made it useless to try to move with the seat up since it was so slow. I disabled that which is great to be able to do. The chair seems a little hard to drive a constant speed as it seems to surge a little. It rather fascinating to be able to completely change the way the chair works.

Sounds like compensation too high?
I recently got a OEM R-NET programer to use on my MM X8. I had never been able to look at the programing on my Quickie Pulse 6 with R-NET that I got used and have been using for a while pretty much indoors only. What a surprise to find out top speed had been limited to 60% ! I took it outside for a ride to measure top speed and sure enough it would only go 3.5 MPH. I didn't notice just driving inside. I fixed that but my wife did mention something about not going 6 MPH in the kitchen. I think it is a personal problem and she just needs to get out of the way. I love the R-NET system and am glad I got a OEM programer. They are expensive but my insurance will not pay for a chair for me. Buying a little used chair for $250 and a programer for $430 is still very cheap. Thanks for all the help everyone. I would never even know why a used chair seemed so crappy if not for Burgerman and this forum.


I suggest you change one setting at a time. And ask here what exactly it does. Unless very sure. If tying to find out, set it low, or at 0, and set it at 100. Except for compenstion... And test outside. On one profile.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby rover220 » 06 Dec 2020, 15:21

The vr2 works a little differently iirc. The lower the number the quicker the accelerations.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Clif » 06 Dec 2020, 16:48

Burgerman:
By twitchy I mean it would not go in a straight line. Like there was no neutral position on the joystick. Could be motor compensation.

I use GPS to check speed.

The chair has 4 pole motors. The Sunrise serial number check said 6MPH motors. It went 6MPH on my GPS . When I downloaded the file from the controller speed was set at 50% on all the profiles. Compensation was set at 130. When I changed the speed to 100% it did not drive just like before . It was completely uncontrollable. The slightest touch of the joystick and the chair would jump a foot sideways at very high speed. I could not move 1 inch without the chair turning. I had zero control over direction.

I don't believe I was confused at all. I just changed the speed to 100% from 50% and that was the effect. I next dropped the compensation from 130 to 50 and the chair drove fine with the same top speed as before. Didn't make any sense to me but I am a newbie to programing. Having read your description of too much compensation I thought I would try that first so that fixed the problem. I have the original VR2 programing file. I am not sure how to upload it. I haven't tried anything else yet but compensation might still be too high at 50. I did do one setting at a time. Testing outside would have been much better for sure. When the chair was working better I disabled the speed limits with the seat up. How it could go 6 MPH with max speed set to 50% is a mystery to me. I checked the speed before I even loaded the programing software. I might put the original file back in and check again. If the compensation was set way too high couldn't the controller send power to the motors even though the speed was limited to 50%? I feel sorry for the person who was disabled and trying to use this chair the way it was programed. He was a US veteran and the chair came from the Veterans administration here in the US. I bought the chair from his Widow . I told her from the scufs it looked like her husband drove into a lot of things. She said yes. It was pretty undrivable the way it was set up. I am very curious and if I have time might do some experimenting. I have not fully explored the programing software for VR2 . I can't get the help files to load on my new computer. Is there any other documentation on that software? Thank you.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby LROBBINS » 06 Dec 2020, 17:54

Going 6 mph with speed set at 50% was probably because of the excessively high motor compensation - essentially you had a runaway situation. Motor compensation works by measuring motor current and then estimates back EMF as (current x motor resistance) which is proportionate to load. It then adds that to what the stick is calling for - it "fakes" a higher stick position. So even though your stick was saying "go 50%", with the added excess compensation it told the chair "go full out". As you discovered when you took away the 50% speed limit, too much compensation is a very dangerous situation.

When adjusting compensation always start with a too-low, sluggish moving chair, value and raise it in small increments. As soon as the chair gets even a little bit jumpy then back off a bit. If you adjust it so that it's "perfect", the next day when the temp has changed, or after you've driven some and the motors are hot, or when you rest a while and the motors are cold, it will no longer be "perfect". Less than perfect and the chair will be less responsive, but safe. Being more than perfect is bad news. Motor compensation is a positive feedback loop and if even slightly too high is asking for trouble. It must be adjusted for slightly less than perfect.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2020, 18:28

The correct setting or should I say the standard setting is 45mOhms on the 4pole 6mph motors from sunrise. Mine are set to 50. And that is because 55 is too high and jumpy. And 45 isnt responsive enough at very low speeds with a 20 stone user.

A setting that is higher than this is used on 2 pole motors. Someone must have swapped controllers, and couldnt understand whay it was running away. That is a dangerous situation. It can potenially smash into a wall, spin uncontrollably, and be unable to stop it without turning it off. If they didnt understand motor compensation they maybe tried to stop it being uncontrollable by reducing speed, acceleration, deceleration, and turn settings. Or maybe had no OEM access. So couldnt do it.

You cannot just swap power modules from one chair type to another or awap motors from 2 pole to 4 pole, without resetting the motor load compensation to match the motors as it can give wildly uncontrollable results. Or a chair that feels like its driving in glue.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2020, 18:30

The vr2 works a little differently iirc. The lower the number the quicker the accelerations.


Does it? How odd! Never had a VR2 or VSI here.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Clif » 06 Dec 2020, 22:19

This is the original controller programed as it was given to the previous owner. The house was not handicapped accessible . The VA was going to spend $80,000 to remodel the house so he could get around in the wheelchair. The VA managed to stretch out the paperwork process for 5 years until the previous owner died. He never got to use it very much. That is how healthcare works in America. The tires show almost zero wear. Who ever set up this chair must have been clueless. The seat was so far forward I had trouble using the foot rest. The 20 inch long seat cushion was hanging out past the front of the chair. I have not played with the programing again but I want to set the speed at 50% and raise the compensation slowly to see if I can get it to start moving past 3 MPH. I just think someone who had no idea what they were doing set this chair up. Amazing no one got hurt.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2020, 23:51

I have not played with the programing again but I want to set the speed at 50% and raise the compensation slowly to see if I can get it to start moving past 3 MPH. I just think someone who had no idea what they were doing set this chair up. Amazing no one got hurt.


If you purposely set motor compesation too high, you can and will get a runaway, at full speed, that can not be stopped until its broken your legs or spun at high speed in place, until it spits you out or turns over. Even if set to 10% speed. Do not try it. Its dangerous. It will/may continue to go, at max output even if you let go of the joystick. And speed setting wont make any difference at all.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Clif » 07 Dec 2020, 01:00

I will take your advice sir! I don't need any more broken legs. Been there done that. I gave up racing motocross and took up windsurfing in the 70's. I thought crashing in water was so much more fun than hitting the ground at 40 MPH. I guess I'll have to find someone I don't like to do the test driving (joke).
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Burgerman » 07 Dec 2020, 01:57

You are safe to increase say 5mOhm at a time. And when it begins to feel snatchy, go back to where it was at its highest but still smooth. And test from there hot, cold, fully charged and discherged. Setting it to 0mOhm. Turns it off. That will give a great feel for wat it does and why its needed.

What it actually does is sense motor LOAD, by sensing the actual current in amps. And then it adds more pulsewidth (similar to voltage) to increase the Amp level.

If you only move the joystick LEFT by say 4mm, the chair will likely not move at all without motor load compensation. Because thats a very small % of the full stick pulsewidth. And full stick may still only be say 40% of the max battery voltage. Vecause you have turn rate (turn speed) set to say 40. Or lower as theres often a 50% scaler hidden in the software too.

So now you want to steer with a small stick movement or on a slow profile, and theres not enough torque to make the chair move at all. So motor load compensation sees this small current, and increases it. Now the chair turns at the same small stick movement.

If traveling at 1mph towards a slope, the chair will slow and stop without motor load compensation. With it, as you slow down, the motor current increases. And the compensation adds some more so that you continue up the slope without the chair slowing. If it slows slightly thats perfect. If it slows a lot, increase it. If it speeds up, panic! Because you will get a runaway.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Clif » 08 Dec 2020, 05:53

These are rather complicated machines we ride around on. I doubt that there are many technicians that have a full grasp of the chairs they are working on.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Burgerman » 08 Dec 2020, 10:16

These are rather complicated machines we ride around on. I doubt that there are many technicians that have a full grasp of the chairs they are working on.

Well I disagree there. I think they are really really simple. They are just batteries, a control system, and 2 old fashioned brushed DC motors.

The manufacturers dont even make the batteries, control systems, or motors! They buy in standardised components.

They buy motors from a small handfull of industry suppliers. Such as AMT, ELECTROCRAFT, LINIX, and others. You will find these across most chair brands.
They buy control systems, from DYNAMIC, PG DRIVES (CURTISS WRIGHT), or CURTIS INSTRUMENTS.
They buy in wheels, tyres, bearings, upholstery, wiring looms, seating, and components like actuators etc. From a similar small group of suppliers.

All they actually make (or have made) is the frame, and its plastic covers etc. And do the bulk buy and assembly. As such many manufacturers dont really understand much about motors for e.g as they just ask the suppliers advice. Same with control systems.

Once you have stripped a chair and thrown all the frame and seating in the corner, all thats left is motors, controller, batteries and wheels... And these are pretty much the same no matter what chair you begin with. Just different power/speed.

The only "complicated" bit is programming. I can explain to you exactly what 99% of the options do. And how it works. In a day.
I can do the same with batteries and chargers.But the manufacturers mostly cannot! They just make the frames and a few plastic trim parts.

Full grasp? Yes. So the real problem is that the sort of people you end up with as wheelchair techs tend to be those that were failed bicycle or lawnmower mechanics. Or the delivery driver that has been on a day course. Its just not an industry that attracts the best engineers. Its not a sexy subject. Most couldnt care less, have no real interest, dont even own the basic tools to program chairs properly and wouldnt know how if they tried. Although many like to pretend they do. Like car parking attendents with the tools to fine you, think they are something important! There are keen, enthusiastic on the ball techs out there. Like rover on here. But they are like rocking horse poo.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Burgerman » 08 Dec 2020, 10:26

THIS for e.g below is the complete control system for a complex rehab powerchair.

It is all you need for a 120A powerchair, with lights, and power lift, tilt, recline, footrests inc length adjustment.

It additianally needs 2 motors (plug right in) and 2x 12V batteries with a simple battery harness that plugs right in too. Thats it. You are done!

Then you have a full system that will work on any chair. Thats all there is! And without fancy seating you dont even need that seating/lighting ISM box on the left in this picture either...
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby rickystyx » 08 Dec 2020, 12:03

Burgerman wrote:
.

Full grasp? Yes. So the real problem is that the sort of people you end up with as wheelchair techs tend to be those that were failed bicycle or lawnmower mechanics. Or the delivery driver that has been on a day course. Its just not an industry that attracts the best engineers. Its not a sexy subject. Most couldnt care less, have no real interest, dont even own the basic tools to program chairs properly and wouldnt know how if they tried. Although many like to pretend they do. Like car parking attendents with the tools to fine you, think they are something important! There are keen, enthusiastic on the ball techs out there. Like rover on here. But they are like rocking horse poo.


You are not kidding - the guy who delivered my new chair (Well it was second hand but had only done 20 miles) didn't know anything about programming and neither did their engineer who phoned me to sort some issues, I had already sorted them by the time he phoned but his comment after discussing the issue and how I'd sorted it was "wow you know so much about these you should be working for the mobility industry - we need folks with your knowledge" I have to say that left me wondering just what sort of techs they really have at these places. They couldn't even adjust the basic chair parts for me - fortunately I can do things like that myself but there are many that can't
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Burgerman » 08 Dec 2020, 12:11

Yes. And thats is typical. The problem isnt any better adressed by wheelchair services. They seem even worse. So its a case of helping yourself, or suffering.

This is a major fundamental problem. Even if they are "trained" its the wrong people, wrong mentality, and they dont grasp most of it. Until the quality of person they use for this changes drastically its hopeless and will never change. And all this isnt helped by the manufacturers locking down easy access to parts, or denying access to the programming tools that end users like many on here require.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Marcelo » 08 Dec 2020, 16:45

LROBBINS wrote:Going 6 mph with speed set at 50% was probably because of the excessively high motor compensation - essentially you had a runaway situation. Motor compensation works by measuring motor current and then estimates back EMF as (current x motor resistance) which is proportionate to load. It then adds that to what the stick is calling for - it "fakes" a higher stick position. So even though your stick was saying "go 50%", with the added excess compensation it told the chair "go full out". As you discovered when you took away the 50% speed limit, too much compensation is a very dangerous situation.

When adjusting compensation always start with a too-low, sluggish moving chair, value and raise it in small increments. As soon as the chair gets even a little bit jumpy then back off a bit. If you adjust it so that it's "perfect", the next day when the temp has changed, or after you've driven some and the motors are hot, or when you rest a while and the motors are cold, it will no longer be "perfect". Less than perfect and the chair will be less responsive, but safe. Being more than perfect is bad news. Motor compensation is a positive feedback loop and if even slightly too high is asking for trouble. It must be adjusted for slightly less than perfect.

Concordo plenamente contigo LROBBINS. :thumbup:
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Clif » 13 Dec 2020, 01:27

So I just got around to reprogramming the other used Quickie chair I bought. This is a S636. The first one was a QM710. Both of these chairs were provided by the Veterans Administration to veterans. They both came from a town in Florida 3 hours away from me. These both have 4 pole motors and both have VR2 90 amp controllers and little to no use. To my surprise this S363 is programed almost exactly the same as the QM 710. It is set with maximum speed of 50% and motor compensation of 130 amps . It goes the full 6mph with the speed set to 50% just like the first one. The max amps was set to 60 for what reason I have no idea. I set the speed to 100%, the compensation to 45% and the max amps to 80 with a boost to 90. I believe there is a person in Fort Meyers Florida who is programing chairs wrong. I also suspect that there might be several houses in Fort Meyers with very damaged doorways. This make 3 chairs I bought used that had maximum speed set very low. Two of them did do maximum speed by way of motor compensation.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby Burgerman » 13 Dec 2020, 06:13

Thats rediculous.
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Re: Reprograming my used chairs

Postby steves1977uk » 13 Dec 2020, 12:59

Clif wrote:... motor compensation of 130 amps....


Motor compensation is measured in milli-Ohms, not Amps. :thumbup:

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