seat tilt sensor switch

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seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 18 Dec 2020, 19:08

Hello everyone
I have a permobil c300 chair. I tilted the seat (not back. whole seat) and as always seat indicator turned yellow but now when I turn it back all the way back to normal straight position it wont turn green and it's stuck in turtle mode
how can i know what the problem it might be?
where is the sensor switch is located? maybe if i push it with hand it turns back green
unfortunately i don't have accesses to repair shops or programers
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Burgerman » 18 Dec 2020, 19:21

Never had anything to do with permobils for a number of reasons (such as this).

Usually its a microswitch on the seat frame on most normal chairs. Permobil being permobil will have done something more complicated. And it may be built into an actuator or something. You will usually find that instead of bothiring to fix it, its easier to disable that inhibit in programming so it doesent display any snails and works normally regardless of seat position. But again, permobil on modern stuff at least use their own seating modules that make this all but impossible. So it all depends.

Check for trapped cables or something preventing the seat going fully down before panicking though. And look on the parts manual to see if its easy to spot. Look also with seat fully tilted. And lifted a bit if posible.
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 19 Dec 2020, 07:46

I'm now panicking. last night i could tilt the seat even the indicator was yellow but now without doing anything it won't move and i just hear a click

it's and old c300. 2009 i think with 2g seat
w1.JPG


now i can't even access the switch below the seat
is there anyway i can disable the turtle mode without programmer or going to repair shop?
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby swalker » 19 Dec 2020, 08:23

Several things could cause problems with the seating actuators.

There could be a problem in the ICS switches (mounted near the joystick module), in the cabling, in the ICS master control module, or in the actuator itself. The C300 has changed over time while keeping the same model name. Depending on which variety you have, there could be an extra electrical box or two involved as well.

In trying to diagnose the problem, you will probably eventually need to figure out what kind of actuator your wheelchair has. I have been able to do this by calling Permobil with my wheelchair's serial number. They have a database where they can lookup the configuration of the chair as it left the factory and how it has been modified by authorized repair centers that notify Permobil of any changes made.

I would start by checking the cables. Make sure that every connection is good. I would clean each connection with an electrical contact cleaner.

If that did not solve the problem I would do a calibration. The ICS technical manual has a procedure for doing this. The procedure you use depends on what type of actuator you have (soft pot vs smart actuator). You can download the ICS technical manual here: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/14736 ... l-Ics.html

I once had my ICS system fail when water made its way into the ICS switches. We used a hair dryer to try to dry it out, but it took several days for it to thoroughly dry out. Until it was dried out, many things failed.

I have also had the ICS master control module fail. That was replaced (about $1,000) which fixed the problems I was having.

I have also had an actuator failed. I was able to buy a used actuator off of ebay to fix that problem. Getting the right part was a bit tricky, as there are so many varieties of actuators used in Permobil wheelchairs.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 19 Dec 2020, 09:08

Thank you both for taking your time and answer me
I try to explain my situation. i live in Iran and there are no permobil shops over here. i got it second hand from someone who imported it himself

at the moment i dont care about the tilt function
i have severe SMA and i cant push joystick all the way. now with turtle mode on, the wheelchair is literarily a turtle. i just need to get rid of turtle mode.
in some videos i've seen the actuator and the switch are connected to a board on the back of the seat.
w2.JPG

https://youtu.be/GojxcvkXMCs?t=335

is there anyway to disable that switch altogether? what happens if i remove switch socket from the controller? or do a short circuit?
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Burgerman » 19 Dec 2020, 09:37

Again another perfect example of why to avoid buying permobil powerchairs. A nighmare to fix. And almost always a one off permobil problem/part.
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby swalker » 20 Dec 2020, 00:01

From your pictures, it looks like you have an older wheelchair with an early seat than the Corpus 3G seat that I am familiar with.

I don't know how Permobil's ICS system works with your older seating system.

I still recommend that you inspect all the cables in your system and clean the contacts at all connections with an electrical contact cleaner.

I have 4 Permobil wheelchairs. All of those have the ICS system. On all 4 of my wheelchairs, I can disconnect the cable to an actuator. I can then update the ICS system so it no longer is aware that the actuator is present.

So, if yours works like mine, you might be able to simple disconnect the cable that goes from the power module to the tilt actuator. Shut off the wheelchair before you do this (and, if you want to be extra careful, throw the circuit breaker). Once you have disconnected the tilt actuator cable, you may need to restart the wheelchair a couple of times for the ICS system to configure itself correctly.

If all that works, and if the tilt actuator is the cause of your turtle icon, the turtle icon should go away and you should be able to drive at full speed.

Steve
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 20 Dec 2020, 09:24

From your pictures, it looks like you have an older wheelchair with an early seat than the Corpus 3G seat that I am familiar with.

yes. as I mentioned in previous posts it's an older c300 with 2G seats
i'm pretty sure it's exactly the model you see in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xE1ZToHKjxg

I don't know how Permobil's ICS system works with your older seating system.

sorry for noob question. by "ICS"
you mean this
w3.JPG
w3.JPG (27.04 KiB) Viewed 1660 times


or this?
w4.JPG
w4.JPG (24.37 KiB) Viewed 1660 times


I still recommend that you inspect all the cables in your system and clean the contacts at all connections with an electrical contact cleaner.

I'll try that as soon as I my nephew gets here. the problem is i don't know where are the connectors of the actuator and the switch are connected to. the seat is stuck in flat position and i can't trace the wires
do you know where they are connected to?

So, if yours works like mine, you might be able to simple disconnect the cable that goes from the power module to the tilt actuator

and also please tell me where power module is located

thanks in advance
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Burgerman » 20 Dec 2020, 11:31

The power module will be under the seat, on the seat back, or near the battery on the base somewhere.

A COMPLETE R-net system, as used on most powerchairs is in the picture.

Joystick (various types) and a power module, the big black thing on the right powers the wheelchair and normally stores all the seating and other programming for the whole chair. And a smaller seating/lighting module on the left - which plugs into the seating actuators. Loom is i the picture, and it does all the seating and lighting on the chair. Simple and plug and play. The last part however is not fitted on most permobils. Instead they roll their own problematic and hugely complicated setup that looks like a ships boiler room. That nobody inc permobil seem to be able to understand or fix. This at least should allow you to see what you are looking at. And why its hard for anyone to help you fix.

Anything that does not look like this pic is permobil stuff. Added in place of the usual r-net seating module. And this is where your problems begin.

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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby swalker » 20 Dec 2020, 22:59

If you have not yet done so, I think it would be very helpful to download the ICS Technical Manual (https://www.manualslib.com/manual/14736 ... l-Ics.html) as well as the C300 Service Manual (http://permobilus.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/45.pdf).

In the C300 Service Manual, you will find a layout of the major control components on pages 66 and 67. This will give you an idea of what components are in your system and how they are connected together. It does not show you where they are physically located on your wheelchair, through. For that, you will need to see page 37 (presuming you have an RNet system) for the power module and page 41 for the ICS master control module.

This service manual is for a more recent version of your chair, so there could be a few differences. It is possible your chair is old enough to have a VR2 rather than an RNet system. If so, the Service Manual I linked also covers the VR2 components, though in a bit less detail.

To find how to disconnect the cable for the tilt actuator, first, find the tilt actuator. Then follow its cable back to where it plugs into something. It will probably not plug directly into the Power Module. That is because RNet uses a bus. So, there will typically be a cable from the power module to a junction box. The actuator cables are then plugged into the junction box. Simply unplug the cable going to the tilt actuator from that junction box. After doing that, cycle power a couple of times and things might work OK. Rnet is set up to automatically detect and handle configuration changes. It usually does this OK, but there have been times I have had to tell it what to do. If that is necessary, it can often by done by manipulating the buttons on the ICS control (often mounted just behind the joystick module). The ICS Technical Manual explains how to do this.

If this all works, it would point to a bad tilt actuator. In that case, you can often find used actuators on ebay for a reasonable price. Be sure to get one that exactly matches the numbers on your current tilt actuator.

If this does not work, it likely points to something else being a problem, such as one or more cables, the junction box, the ICS Master Module, or the ICS control panel. Of these, I have had failures in an actuator, an ICS Master Module, an RNet cable, and the ICS control panel. But, those are not typical failures. I use my chairs a lot and sometimes in really bad weather.

It is all amazingly simple once you take a few parts off your chair. The Service Manual will show you exactly how to remove those parts.

I know you will not be doing the work yourself, but having an understanding of the layout of the components in your chair will be invaluable to you as you guide other people while they do the work.

And, as I have said before, the first thing I would do would be to inspect all the RNet cables and connections and use an electronic contact cleaner to clean the connections.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
Magic Mobility X4 with 176 Ah LiFePO4
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 21 Dec 2020, 07:39

first thank you guys again for complete and with detail answers
and excuse my English

I could find someone to help me. I could see the actuator and the switch but because the seat is all the way flat I couldn't reach the tiny button under the switch to check if it is stuck or physically damaged.
I checked all the wires and actually they are in very good condition for a chair that old
now the good, bad and the confusing part
i traced the wires to the junction box behind the back of the seat and again checked the cables. again everything look normal. cleaned the "two sockets/connectors" of the actuator. NOTHING changed :(
removed the 2 connectors and after 2-3 times of turning wheelchair on/off all the indicators on the ics are green and turtle is gone :dance
the very confusing part is that now even with the connectors disconnected when i turn the chair off and on, the tilt indicator turns yellow again :( :shock: and i have to turn the chair off/on 2-3 times again till the indicator turns green
how's that possible?

i also should mention i connected one of the two sockets of the actuator alternatively and the yellow indicator was still on
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Burgerman » 21 Dec 2020, 18:46

Disconnect ONE wire from the microswitch. What happens now?
Disconnect BOTH wires from the microswitch, and join them together. What happens now. Should have no turtle at any angle.
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 22 Dec 2020, 07:32

Disconnect ONE wire from the microswitch. What happens now?

there is a picture of the actuator and the switch
w7.JPG

do you mean i should cut one of the wires? (blue or orange). they are soldered can't be disconnected

Disconnect BOTH wires from the microswitch, and join them together

what do you me by "join them"? should i cut both wires and connect them together?
sorry if i double check sometimes. i'm trying not to blow up anything
actually i thought that switch connects those two wires when pushed and wanted to do a short circuit for test. i asked a technician and he said no
actually i asked him:
how does that inhibit switch work? does it only connect those two blue/brown wires together? can i short circuit them just for test?
he answerd:
no the inhibits are totally different.. they use other parts of the chair

so by simply connecting those two wires the switch gets activated?
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby woodygb » 22 Dec 2020, 10:10

That pic seems to show a limit switch with a large diode across the terminals .

So ...Your actuator probably has an arrangement like this with an upper and lower limit switch.

Image

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/q ... sing-motor
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Burgerman » 22 Dec 2020, 10:48

Maybe the diode failed. Or failing. Or switch contacts.
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 22 Dec 2020, 13:35

thanks

.Your actuator probably has an arrangement like this with an upper and lower limit switch.

does this mean the actuator have only one switch?
please help me understand how it works. when the seat is flat that tiny button is pushed and the switch stop the current to the actuator. right?
but how does it know the seat is all the way leant back?

Maybe the diode failed. Or failing. Or switch contacts.

could you please answer my questions in my last post?
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby woodygb » 22 Dec 2020, 13:59

The actuator will have TWO switches.... one at either end of it's travel.

So you have found ONE of the two.

What position was the tilt in when you took the photo?

DO NOT START CUTTING OR JOINING WIRES YET.
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby woodygb » 22 Dec 2020, 14:23

actuator.jpg


You need to identify IF there has been a failure of a microswitch or diode .

This can be done with a modicum of understanding and a multimeter.
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 22 Dec 2020, 14:25

The actuator will have TWO switches.... one at either end of it's travel.
So you have found ONE of the two.

i myself couldn't find the second switch. i googled "permobil c300 tilt actuator" and found these

act4.jpg


there is only one switch look like this
act3.jpg


what is this? could it be the second switch?
act2.jpg


What position was the tilt in when you took the photo?

all the way flat

DO NOT START CUTTING OR JOINING WIRES YET.

ok.i'll wait
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby woodygb » 22 Dec 2020, 14:35

All the way flat ...then that limit switch ...( seeing as how it did not appear to be operated ) ...would be for tilt all the way up.

So ...somewhere ...hidden away ...I would suspect that there is the other switch .

If you have a multimeter test the switch that you can see.
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby woodygb » 22 Dec 2020, 14:42

POSSIBLE location of hidden switch.

switch.jpg


Image
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby woodygb » 22 Dec 2020, 15:10

IF that switch in your original photo IS being pressed then it is the tilt flat limit switch.... difficult to see and assess via the net.

Check the diode with a multimeter .

https://www.wikihow.com/Test-a-Silicon- ... Multimeter
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Burgerman » 22 Dec 2020, 18:15

When testing it, be aware that the microswitch may short it out! It may be normally closed, or normally open. So test pressed and not pressed. Or unsolder 1 end of it.
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 24 Dec 2020, 09:27

i'm trying to find someone with a multimeter

in the mean time i thing i found the second inhibit switch. (yellow section)
map.jpg


it's located in the backrest
br1.JPG


there are 2 angle sensors
br2.JPG
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 24 Dec 2020, 09:50

am i understanding it right?

ics is like this
ics1.JPG


seat is all the way flat/up and the actuator is being fully retracted. so it can't be the problem of front switch next to the actuator
w7.JPG


i can't tilt back the seat because something 's wrong with the angle sensor and the controller thinks the seat is already tilted all the way back
am i right?
is there anyway i can disable those angle sensors just for a quick test?
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Burgerman » 24 Dec 2020, 10:47

You can disconnect 1 wire from it? Not sure what that will do. Not sure what type of switches they are. They may be a pot, that gives a resistance reading that relates to angle. Or may be magnetic switches. A multimeter will tell you everything. Provided you understand the basic electrics/electronics.

How all this permobil stuff works is a mystery. Even their own guys just start swapping parts. But is shouldnt be anything too complicated.
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 24 Dec 2020, 12:00

You can disconnect 1 wire from it?

it seems i can cut one wire but i'm afraid i won't be able to reconnect it again
as2.jpg


Not sure what type of switches they are.

they look like this.
as1.jpg

as3.jpg

searched
https://ritewaymobility.com/products/an ... tem-311576
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Burgerman » 24 Dec 2020, 13:16

What happens without those switches? Thats the same as disconnecting a wire...
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Aghajoon » 24 Dec 2020, 13:26

Burgerman wrote:What happens without those switches? Thats the same as disconnecting a wire...

couldn't test it yet.
i'm gathering info for the time my nephew gets here then test them one by one

if disconnecting them wouldn't make any difference, should i risk it and short circuit the wires? is it possible that blow up something?
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Re: seat tilt sensor switch

Postby Burgerman » 24 Dec 2020, 13:33

It depends. If its a switch, shorting them or disconnecting them cannot hurt anything. If its a true angle sensor than it sends a different reading at different angles. The resistance changes, or if its a hall device then it sends a voltage change. So only permobil could know if shorting them will hurt. And they wont know...

It makes trying to fix anything permobil very hard. You end up if not careful having to let them fix it by substituting parts till it works, in a rediculous timeframe and $$$. And it may be some permobil module thats faulty. Not a sensor.
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