Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Power wheelchair board for REAL info!

POWERCHAIR MENU! www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerchair-stuff.htm

Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby benjamin » 19 Jan 2021, 00:48

Hello everyone. Found a local seller looking to unload a loaded two year old F5 (non-VS). Chair will require some adjustment to work for me, but I would like to have a spare that I can check with the airlines and leave at my second home. However upon testing the chair, I saw that the top speed was only 6 MPH, not the standard 7.5 MPH. I called Permobil with the serial number and they weren't of much help, in fact their rep told me 6 MPH is the standard for the F5 :?

Does anyone know is this likely due to programming that can be resolved through my DME or are there F5s (with anti-tippers) that are limited to 6 MPH by the factory? I know units without anti-tippers are limited to 6.0 but this unit does indeed have them. The power recline actuator also got stuck when in the furthest position (switch box was blinking red). Is this a major concern? After a few minutes, power cycling, and the seller giving a nudge the actuator went back up but I am worried I am buying a money pit since the chair is off warranty and I will be paying out of pocket.

Thanks as always.
benjamin
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 06:11
Location: Boston/New York

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jan 2021, 02:07

Should be 7mph (7.2 approx) how are you measuring it?

Use GPS on your phone for true speed measurement. The joystick can read anything they program into it. If its slower than 7mph on a level surface it needs some programming...
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 54275
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby johnbae1980 » 19 Jan 2021, 02:26

use the file as i attatched if you have a dongle.
Attachments
a_324602 F5_Corpus_APE base 12kmh v6.zip
(3.44 KiB) Downloaded 20 times
2020 Permobil F5VS, 120ah LifePo4
2019 Permobil M3, 85ah LifePo4

-Previous chairs
2016 Permobil F5VS
2013 Permobil M300
OttoBock B500
Invacare Torque
johnbae1980
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 30 Jan 2020, 09:02
Location: South Korea

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby swalker » 19 Jan 2021, 02:28

I have had 2 Permobil F5 wheelchairs. The I bought used and the second I bought new. Both were 7.5 miles per hour. Both mine came with anti tippers, but those were the first things I removed. If someone were to buy used 7.5mph F5 wheelchairs from me, they would come without the anti tippers installed.

There will be a data sticker on the left (US driver's side) of the wheelchair kind of behind the cowling. That sticker will provide the serial number and date of manufacture.

With the serial number, Permobil will be able to tell you exactly how the chair was configured form the factory, including its top speed.

I recommend buying a used wheelchair that has low mileage. I have bought a C500 with 26 miles, a C350 with 36 miles, and an F5 with 125 miles. I was nervous about buying the F5 with that many miles on it.

You can find the chair's mileage pretty easily. It varies depending on the type of joystick, but is easy to do. There are many sources online showing how to do this.

Wheelchairs motors wear out. Power modules seem to have a somewhat limited life, as do ICS master modules. Actuators do fail, but can be replaced. So, low mileage is better.

The recline actuator error you encountered could be a bad actuator, ICS switch box, ICS Master Module, ICS General Module, Cables, or even the RNet Power Module. All of those can be found used on ebay, but even the price of used items can add up! Odds are that it is a bad actuator (really a microswitch built into the actuator), but there is no way of knowing without doing some diagnostics.

I would certainly look at the diagnostics screen on the joystick (presuming it has an LCD display). You can also review that information on a computer if you have a dongle and appropriate software. That may give you some idea of problems with the wheelchair, including the recline problem. Note that some of the "errors" are just normal operation items, such as disconnecting the battery or releasing the freewheel lock.

I am in Colorado. Things might be a bit different where you live.

I paid $3,500 for my used F5 wheelchair that had about 125 miles on it. It had a custom seat back I had to replace, which mean that I needed to buy a new seat back shell, back cushion, and seat cushion (Roho for me). It had power legs, tilt, recline, and seat elevate. I spent about $1,500 buying used parts to get it fitted perfectly for me (thigh supports, thoracic supports, headrest, etc). I bought all the upholstery items new (as I usually do). It was a great wheelchair!

Good luck with your search for a backup wheelchair. I bought my first backup over 5 years ago and now have 6 wheelchairs!

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
Magic Mobility X4 with 176 Ah LiFePO4
swalker
 
Posts: 391
Joined: 23 Jul 2018, 22:57
Location: Vail, Colorado, USA

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby ex-Gooserider » 19 Jan 2021, 02:39

Permobiil is tricky in regards to programming. While it claims to be R-Net, Permobil adds a bunch of proprietary hardware and electronics that makes it not work nicely w/ the standard programming software, and you can't get access to the Permobil specific software....

Speed is a function of the motor gearing, and the battery voltage. As others have noted, the display is NOT a good indication of speed, as it can be set to read anything... However the speed CAN be set to less than maximum in programming.

The actuator is possibly more concerning, especially if you plan on using it, and not just leaving it in one position... The actuator stuff is part of the difficult to program aspect, and is a proprietary part that can be hard to find replacements for (if it is the actuator and not something in the control electronics, wiring, etc...) If the price on the chair is right, I might be tempted to buy it anyway, but it is a reason to be wary or bargain harder...

ex-Gooserider
T-5, ASIA-B
Jazzy 1100
Jazzy Select 6
Quickie Q-7
Invacare Mariner
Want to make / get a better chair, ideally one that stands.
User avatar
ex-Gooserider
 
Posts: 5536
Joined: 15 Feb 2011, 06:17
Location: Billerica, MA. USA

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby Fusiongoat » 19 Jan 2021, 03:50

benjamin wrote:Does anyone know is this likely due to programming that can be resolved through my DME or are there F5s (with anti-tippers) that are limited to 6 MPH by the factory?

I think it's just programming. Take a look at the left side tables on pp.2-3 of this document https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_doc ... 191874.pdf
Note that they list two motor packages for the Q700-UP M but only one motor package for F5. Ignore the info on F5 VS, unless you're curious. I believe there are no 6 mph motors, but I am not certain.
Fusiongoat
 
Posts: 62
Joined: 22 Jun 2019, 02:03

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby benjamin » 19 Jan 2021, 16:10

Thanks everyone. Yes I am more concerned about the recline actuator. The chair is a 2018 and has 120 miles per the joystick odometer and is in fairly good condition. I will need to get a new cushion, add gel arm pads, and replace one of the headlights (not sure if it’s the bulb or the fixture got busted somehow). The seller is saying $3500, but I’m trying to get below $3k given all the investment I will need to make, uncertainty about the batteries, and recline actuator. They’ve been trying to sell for about five months, but I don’t want to come across as greedy or pushy as the seller seems to need the money and lost her quad son. Trying to balance being sensitive, compassionate and looking out for myself.

Does anyone think having my DME do an inspection like cad buyers do is a good idea?
benjamin
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 06:11
Location: Boston/New York

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jan 2021, 16:53

Only if it comes with a (cheap) warranty that includes parts. What can they possibly tell you other than it works/doesent work?
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 54275
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby benjamin » 19 Jan 2021, 18:28

Good point I’ll skip it. But trying to get one for $3k or under isn’t overly aggressive is it?
benjamin
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 06:11
Location: Boston/New York

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jan 2021, 18:39

In fact thats likely your best bet. When you buy a used powerchair its usually not nessassary as you can get the odd part you need on eBay cheap or buy it from a high street dealer. Thats relatively simple to do on say a sunrise medical quickie chair. But permobil are a law unto themselves. Its often only them that can fix it or supply parts to their own people. And they dont do sensible fault finding or repair and replace whole $$$expensive parts till it fixes the problem. And they have no OEM software available to their dealers etc. And many parts are not generic but are permobil only. So if I was buying permobil (I would not for a bunch of reasons) I would definitely want an aftermarket warranty. Theres many options offered in the UK. Make sure the one you use uncludes parts! And doesent require "servicing" contract etc.


I got a warranty free on my new (unused but 2nd hand eBay) chair thrown in. I have not actually looked at the details. Because I dont need it. I have a spare for anything that can fail, and an OEM programmer already... So all pretty pointless for me and a sunrise chair. Your situation may be different.

I bought an unused but 3 month old (less than a couple of miles) Q700R.
And included a centre power footrest in place of these shown here https://www.sunrisemedical.co.uk/powere ... -sedeo-pro as well as lift/tilt/recline/centre power footrest/120A power module, 4 pole motors, gyro (stupid! Not needed), brand new batteries, latest advanced colour joystick, 12 month warranty, delivery and set up to my door. And a 10A charger...

Also included all the expensive options on the prescription form. Total was £12.5k retail, I offered and paid £4400 inc a warranty delivered. The tyres still have all the little bobbles on, everything is unmarked and basically unused. Was sold in August, was on sale 1st september after it was returned.

There are bargains out there. Dont jump. Look around. And if permobil or you cant do own maintainance get an aftermarket warranty inc parts.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 54275
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby Burgerman » 19 Jan 2021, 18:49

This is the actual chair I bought. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114503365602 ... 4503365602
I agreed with the seller to swap the seperate leg rests for a brand new centre power footrest and a 4400 price.brand new batts. Fully loaded and then some.

This includes an aftermarket warranty paid for by the seller which is the important thing in your case.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 54275
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby swalker » 19 Jan 2021, 21:57

I like the Permobil F5 and would not hesitate to buy one.

In the US, wheelchair prices are skewed by our peculiar health insurance system. You will find that a new Permobil f5 will cost around $25,000 (if you pay cash and negotiate). A used F5 (not a VS) in good condition with low miles will cost $4,000 to $5,000. You can pay more or less, but that is the range I typically see them going for.

Essentially, the used power wheelchair market seems to track the price folks pay out of pocket for a new wheelchair. The market is influenced a bit by supply and demand. So, used standing wheelchairs, which are scarcer, seem to go for more than the initial buyer's out of pocket costs. Because most folks pay $4,000 or so out of pocket for a new wheelchair, that kind of sets the price for used wheelchairs.

If I were to buy a used f5 with known issues, I would reduce the price I paid by the amount I estimated it would take to fix it along with some reserve in case I estimated poorly.

Used Permobil parts are readily available on ebay. I have bought actuators, esp module, ICS general module, joystick module, swing away joystick mount, backrest shell, seat plate, arm rests, thigh supports, lateral thoracic supports, wheels, etc. on ebay. They are readily available, but sometimes I have to be patient until the right flavor of a part shows up at a price I am willing to pay.

I purchase new tires, seat cushions, etc. from other vendors, such as Spin Life.

I can also get all these new parts from NuMotion, but the prices are outrageous. For example, I needed new snow tires for a Permobil C500. They quoted me a price of just under $1,000! It turns out they wanted to sell me the wheels and the rims as an assembly. I can buy a pair of tires elsewhere for about $100 and a pair of rims for about $100 on ebay. I have had similarly outrageous quotes for backrest shells, cushions, actuators, etc. from NuMotion.

If I were buying a used F5 with 120 miles and, power legrests, tilt, recline, and seat elevate that had the actuator error you report, I would pay $3,000 or less in Colorado. I might go up a bit if I had been searching and had not found a better deal within several months.

Be sure to budget for new batteries ($500 for MK Group 24 Gels) and various bits and pieces to have it fit you right. This has been around $1,500 for the used wheelchairs I have bought.

Based on my experience buying new (2 wheelchairs) and buying used (4 wheelchairs), I never want to buy new again. The reason is that I am pretty much done with DMEs like NuMotion. The cost to me is about the same (after insurance pays most for a new wheelchair), but the transaction is just so much faster and smoother when I buy used.

As for having the wheelchair inspected by a DME, go ahead, if you want. If I had done so 2 years ago at my local NuMotion, I would have had capable folks looking at it (and likely the same folks who had been maintaining the wheelchair). But, over the last 2 years all the experienced repair techs have left, so I would have no confidence in what anyone there says now.

A sobering thing I found when I first became a wheelchair user is that often folks selling wheelchairs and wheelchair adapted vehicles are doing so because of someone's death. In hindsight, I have rationalized that I am doing them a favor by taking the item off their hands and paying what I believe is a fair price for it. They have the comfort of knowing that the medical device will be going to someone that has a legitimate need for it.

Steve
Permobil F5 Corpus 3G
Permobil C500s VS
Permobil C500 Corpus 3G
Permobil C350 Corpus 3G
Magic Mobility X4 with 176 Ah LiFePO4
swalker
 
Posts: 391
Joined: 23 Jul 2018, 22:57
Location: Vail, Colorado, USA

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby benjamin » 20 Jan 2021, 20:35

swalker wrote:I like the Permobil F5 and would not hesitate to buy one.

In the US, wheelchair prices are skewed by our peculiar health insurance system. You will find that a new Permobil f5 will cost around $25,000 (if you pay cash and negotiate). A used F5 (not a VS) in good condition with low miles will cost $4,000 to $5,000. You can pay more or less, but that is the range I typically see them going for.

Essentially, the used power wheelchair market seems to track the price folks pay out of pocket for a new wheelchair. The market is influenced a bit by supply and demand. So, used standing wheelchairs, which are scarcer, seem to go for more than the initial buyer's out of pocket costs. Because most folks pay $4,000 or so out of pocket for a new wheelchair, that kind of sets the price for used wheelchairs.

If I were to buy a used f5 with known issues, I would reduce the price I paid by the amount I estimated it would take to fix it along with some reserve in case I estimated poorly.

Used Permobil parts are readily available on ebay. I have bought actuators, esp module, ICS general module, joystick module, swing away joystick mount, backrest shell, seat plate, arm rests, thigh supports, lateral thoracic supports, wheels, etc. on ebay. They are readily available, but sometimes I have to be patient until the right flavor of a part shows up at a price I am willing to pay.

I purchase new tires, seat cushions, etc. from other vendors, such as Spin Life.

I can also get all these new parts from NuMotion, but the prices are outrageous. For example, I needed new snow tires for a Permobil C500. They quoted me a price of just under $1,000! It turns out they wanted to sell me the wheels and the rims as an assembly. I can buy a pair of tires elsewhere for about $100 and a pair of rims for about $100 on ebay. I have had similarly outrageous quotes for backrest shells, cushions, actuators, etc. from NuMotion.

If I were buying a used F5 with 120 miles and, power legrests, tilt, recline, and seat elevate that had the actuator error you report, I would pay $3,000 or less in Colorado. I might go up a bit if I had been searching and had not found a better deal within several months.

Be sure to budget for new batteries ($500 for MK Group 24 Gels) and various bits and pieces to have it fit you right. This has been around $1,500 for the used wheelchairs I have bought.

Based on my experience buying new (2 wheelchairs) and buying used (4 wheelchairs), I never want to buy new again. The reason is that I am pretty much done with DMEs like NuMotion. The cost to me is about the same (after insurance pays most for a new wheelchair), but the transaction is just so much faster and smoother when I buy used.

As for having the wheelchair inspected by a DME, go ahead, if you want. If I had done so 2 years ago at my local NuMotion, I would have had capable folks looking at it (and likely the same folks who had been maintaining the wheelchair). But, over the last 2 years all the experienced repair techs have left, so I would have no confidence in what anyone there says now.

A sobering thing I found when I first became a wheelchair user is that often folks selling wheelchairs and wheelchair adapted vehicles are doing so because of someone's death. In hindsight, I have rationalized that I am doing them a favor by taking the item off their hands and paying what I believe is a fair price for it. They have the comfort of knowing that the medical device will be going to someone that has a legitimate need for it.

Steve


Steve thanks for the very detailed, articulate and sage advice.

I will keep you posted on what I ultimately decide.
benjamin
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 06:11
Location: Boston/New York

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby benjamin » 20 Jan 2021, 20:41

johnbae1980 wrote:use the file as i attatched if you have a dongle.


Thank you...not quite technical enough or sufficiently equipped to change programming but appreciate it.

P.S. believe i have seen your videos on YouTube
benjamin
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 06:11
Location: Boston/New York

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby benjamin » 20 Jan 2021, 20:43

Fusiongoat wrote:
benjamin wrote:Does anyone know is this likely due to programming that can be resolved through my DME or are there F5s (with anti-tippers) that are limited to 6 MPH by the factory?

I think it's just programming. Take a look at the left side tables on pp.2-3 of this document https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/cdrh_doc ... 191874.pdf
Note that they list two motor packages for the Q700-UP M but only one motor package for F5. Ignore the info on F5 VS, unless you're curious. I believe there are no 6 mph motors, but I am not certain.


Thank you.
benjamin
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 06:11
Location: Boston/New York

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby Rollin Positive » 20 Jan 2021, 23:12

Curious...why not just get a new one?

What seat size do you use?
Rollin Positive
 
Posts: 321
Joined: 14 Aug 2015, 01:32
Location: Peoria, Arizona

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby benjamin » 21 Jan 2021, 06:13

Because it is a spare-not due for a new chair for two more years.

Cushion is 18x18, prefer high back. Must have all four power functions, lights, Permobil Connect. Anterior tilt is a nice to have. Lmk if you have leads to any others for sale.
benjamin
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 06:11
Location: Boston/New York

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby Burgerman » 21 Jan 2021, 13:56

If you cannot walk, then I would suggest that everyone has at LEAST one backup chair. Preferably more. Because as soon as your main chair fails, you only have one! A fault or puncture or whatever then, and you are screwed. Plus if you need to maintain, or fix one, like a motor or tyres you still only have a single usable chair.

Reminds me of a guy that was a parachutist. He just had to use his reserve chute as the main one tangled. He cut it loose. Then had a horrid thought. He was very scared, and hesitated to use his backup reserve chute. Because then he had no reserve! czy

And once you have a few good chairs a strange thing happens. You do not wear out chairs very fast. If you use different ones at different times. So when your 3 or 5 years is up, you dont really need a new chair. But get one anyway... So you end up with more chairs than you know what to do with. I have 5 servicable ones and a couple for parts. Again its best to stick to one type or make of chair as the parts are all interchangable. Over the years then you end up with a lot of spares too, and a shelf full of chargers... So for many reasons 1 chair is certainly not enough.
User avatar
Burgerman
Site Admin
 
Posts: 54275
Joined: 27 May 2008, 21:24
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby Rollin Positive » 21 Jan 2021, 20:01

benjamin wrote:Because it is a spare-not due for a new chair for two more years.

Cushion is 18x18, prefer high back. Must have all four power functions, lights, Permobil Connect. Anterior tilt is a nice to have. Lmk if you have leads to any others for sale.


Message me ill give you details

There is one for sale and I bet the guy will lower the cost to what you need if not lower.
Seat size 18 in wide x 18

Its a 7.5 MPH has seat elevation, lights etc.

Shipping to your area is as simple as flying someone in the am and flying it home the same day

I sold a chair to a women in Florida the husband flew out and home less then $300!

He told the airlines it was his chair and checked in at the curb...

Let me know

RollinPositive@gmail.com
Rollin Positive
 
Posts: 321
Joined: 14 Aug 2015, 01:32
Location: Peoria, Arizona

Re: Permobil F5 - 6 MPH?

Postby benjamin » 22 Jan 2021, 03:41

Email and PM both sent. Thank you!
benjamin
 
Posts: 55
Joined: 01 Dec 2012, 06:11
Location: Boston/New York


Return to Everything Powerchair

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], LROBBINS, rover220, Williamclark77, woodygb and 52 guests

 

  eXTReMe Tracker