Better batteries than these C5004XXXFO Batteries 12Volt 18Ah

[jehan]

okay… The PL8 is currently hooked up to a PC.....

where do I find the file you posted? I can't see it in the last few posts

[Burgerman]

I forgot to upload! This has a 12A limit so can safely be used with XLR connector if you make a lead. Set to 8A right now.
If you want one that can go beyond 12A I will modify it. These are a few of the dozen settings you have no access to.

Remove .zip.

[jehan]

thanks…
But I can't unzip this file in Windows Explorer …it says cannot open folder…folder is invalid

and When I tried an online service..... one online service says that the folder is empty and the other does not recognize the format.

I change the filename and had the same problem

Please check and resend… Soorrry for the bother

[Burgerman]

No need. I just downloaded it on my laptop. And on my PC.

Removed .ZIP from the file name, as stated. It isnt a zip... You cant unzip it!

And loaded it as preset 1 in the PL8s PC software. Its fine. Worked as expected. You are doing something odd. It needs to be called xxxxxx.PL8

[jehan]

even after changing the name to xxxxx.PS8 it doesn't show up in the open file to preset 1 window…

that doesn't work for me…

please send me the file without the .zip at the end …

[jehan]

even if I remove the.zip at the end… My computer continues to see it as a zipped file

[Burgerman]

It cant unless you have associated .PL8 with a zipped format. Or your PC is set up in dummy mode with file extensions hidden... And in any case thats still irrelivant. Stop trying to open it!!!

OPEN the PL8 software, import the file as a position 1 profile.

IF it cant see it or load it from the PL8 software then you have not removed the .zip from the file name because you cant see it with your computer set up in dummy mode.

even after changing the name to xxxxx.PS8 it doesn't show up in the open file to preset 1 window…

that doesn't work for me…

please send me the file without the .zip at the end …

[Burgerman]

The board doesent allow any file extensions other than .jpg, .gif etc.

So if sending any oher file we just add .zip to the name. And you remove that on your desktop. So it says file.PL8 instead.

[Burgerman]

To make your PC work properly and take it out of dummy mode you must open a window in explorer and choose view, etc to tell it to:

Show file extensions
Show hidden files
Show system files

Then click apply to all folders.

Only then will you see all the files on the computer. And the three letter extensions on the end of the file names. Now, delete the .zip from the end that you think isnt there!

[foghornleghorn]

Dropbox link. Without the .zip confusion.Lead AGM 8A W chair XLR Plug.PS8

[jehan]

many thanks foghorn..... I just figured it out with all the settings in Windows Explorer like BM suggested… But I'll use your file too.

[jehan]

I have finally installed the Anderson connector on the wheelchair in a position that I can access to plug-in.

IMG_20170508_171635.jpg

I need a clarification on the Anderson connector wiring to the 4 batteries on the chair??

Woody had suggested to wire either left or right bank of batteries and the other bank will be connected through the internal wiring

Simply wire your 24v charging Anderson across one pair of batteries ...the other pair will be connected to it by the chairs wiring

however, my local electrician suggested to wire just positive and negative of 2 batteries (marked in below image)…because it was easier and didn't have to pull the whole thing out

Anderson connectors.jpg

have charged it overnight and everything seems to be working fine with the float voltage completing at 27.2.

please advise if this wiring is all right for Charging and balancing all 4 batteries?

thank you

[/quote]


I’m on the 3rd set of 4 x 12 V 18 AH batteries… And on each of the sets, 2 batteries are stay good while 2 batteries fail within 3 to 6 months.

On the 2nd set, after 3 months, 2 batteries hold 6000 AH charge each and 2 batteries charge only 1000 AH and 3000 AH (discharging to 2 V per cell)

Now the batteries don’t even last a whole day of indoor use…..

I’m replacing 2 batteries under warranty and the new batteries are charging to 6000 AH also

Do I need to set up a balance charge for the 4 x 12 V 18 AH batteries on the PL8? Will that help to prevent the batteries from failing

[Burgerman]

I am lost in this thread.
What charger?
What settings? ALL of them! Send me your settings file...

And.

What EXACT batteries? Are they suitable? Or some other thing...
And were they all brand new, charged as one in parallel at 14.4V before installing? Or individually?

And...

History, how many cycles?
But if you ask me your batteries were way too small for the job regardless. And this is exactly what happens.

[jehan]

It's charged off a mobility charger from another wheelchair which can do 4/2 A

The batteries were all brand-new but not charged individually before installing…

About 90 cycles so far, discharged to 25.5 V

https://www.quanta.in/products.asp

Yes the batteries are too small… But I'm trying to figure out why some batteries are getting ruined and the others are fine?… Is there something wrong with the wires?… The wheelchair must be about 10 years now

Will send you the charging parameters shortly

[woodygb]

I’m on the 3rd set of 4 x 12 V 18 AH batteries… And on each of the sets, 2 batteries are stay good while 2 batteries fail within 3 to 6 months.

On the 2nd set, after 3 months, 2 batteries hold 6000 AH charge each and 2 batteries charge only 1000 AH and 3000 AH (discharging to 2 V per cell)

It sounds like only one pair of batteries is being heavily used ...check the connection between the two pairs and/or add in another cross connection between them.

Note :- That you should consider the 4 batteries to be a complete unit ...Replacing just one pair is NOT good practice.

IF you have the money you could consider purchasing 4 off Odyssey PC625's.

[woodygb]

Question ... Is it always the same set that get replaced or is it alternating ... e.g ... Replace pair A ...then pair B ...then repeat?

If so then you are I.M.O simply ruining each pair as they are never ALL matched .

[Burgerman]

Those batteries have no spec available and are designed for standby service or telecom use and long term float. And are designed for low currents, and advise very low charge voltages with the ACCELERATED charging being just 13.8V. A mobility charger will finish them off fast. They are not suitable anyway as far as I can tell.

And

A. How do you know what voltage they were discharged too? Measuring after use will only show a depressed voltage that depends on the Amp lever of the recent discharge. 5 mins before you measured them they may have been 22V. And over the next 12 to 24 hours this will rise, to a higher level. And this still tells you nothing useful even if you DID wait! Because the impedance and peukert is the thing that sends your battery meter low, and that stops your chair! And thats due to high impedance batteries. So what do you think that snapshot of voltage can tell you?

B. You mention that these batteries have in your words:
I’m on the 3rd set of 4 x 12 V 18 AH batteries… And on each of the sets, 2 batteries are stay good while 2 batteries fail within 3 to 6 months. On the 2nd set, after 3 months, 2 batteries hold 6000 AH charge each and 2 batteries charge only 1000 AH and 3000 AH (discharging to 2 V per cell)

First 3 to 6 months is about how long I would expect those 36Ah UPS batteries to survive.
And... Battery capacity, Ah, can only be measured over a known 10 or 20 hours, at the correct controlled discharge rate in amps, from a correctly charged battery, to either 10.8V or 11.2V etc depending on what the manufacturer specifies. Discharging to 2 volts per cell (12V) CANNOT tell you anything useful whatever, not even if one battery is better than another. And obviously it will only be partly discharged anyway. And the amount it is actually discharged at 12V (2VPC) depends on the amount of peukert recovery time it has had, the discharge RATE, the temperature, and very much on the the length and thickness of the wires, CHARGE HISTORY, etc.

For eg, I can easily discharge a full battery to 12V and get say 10Ah (which is 10,000mAh) from it measured accurately over 10 hours. Or I can discharge it after full recharge at 10x that RATE and it will almost instantly drop below 12V in a matter of minutes due to its internal resistance which depends on battery type, history, etc. And show maybe 1Ah. or less. So its impossible to do what you are saying.

I suspect that all 4 batteries are ruined. By incorrect charging, of the wrong battery type, and over discharge in use every time you use the chair, both in depth of discharge and in actual current pulled from too small batteries, of the wrong type.

But I am wasting my breath (typing digit!) because nobody listens.

It is possible that some expert has wired it incorrectly and you are only using 2 batteries. But your measurement method cant tell you that. And if you did not equalize all 4 new batteries on initial instalation, and just fitted them. Then its entirely possible that you ruined them all over the next few charges ... Details matter!

How to really find out capacity.
USE PL8, set correct charge settings and charge.
Then set to a discharge rate that matches the batteries 10 hour? or 20? hour capacity rating. 18Ah battery at 10 hour rate is 1.8A discharge. Set termination point to 10.5V for 10 hour, 10.8 to 11V for 20 hour rate. Start discharge and leave the PL8 till it ends. Read Ah. Do each battery in turn.

Now you know. And this still wont help you,other than to see if all batteries are similar, because if they are high resistance, and most UPS (cheap AGMs) are then you may go 1 mile and the internal resistance and peukert combined meand your stop and are out of fuel. And as you wait the voltage climbs again over the next half a day or so...

[jehan]

Hi Woody… Always good to hear from you…

The connection between the 2 pairs came with the wheelchair… So about 10 years old… Shall I just check the resistance between the wires?… What should it be

I’m in the process of building a lithium pack… I’ve already got the revolectrix PL8… Now I need to order the cells… That’s why I haven’t ordered the odysseys.… And using these cheap batteries to understand a little about wiring and the charger and stuff.

It’s one battery from the left bank and another battery from the right bank that fail

I usually cannot go up a ramp when the batteries have discharged to 25.7 V … I can only go on flat ground and at that point.

[woodygb]

It’s one battery from the left bank and another battery from the right bank that fail

Ah ..So two batteries of each 24v pack measure as failed ( you cannot tell their exact condition without following B.M's method ) when in in all likely hood ALL the batteries are completely fudged and your cross connection is fine..

If you MUST get 4 more cheap batteries ...balance them ALL by connecting them together in parallel for 2 days .
Clean and check all connections before installing.... then you might get an extra month or two of usage compared to your previous install.

[Burgerman]

It’s one battery from the left bank and another battery from the right bank that fail

No its not. At least theres nothing that you have done that could determine this. They will all be "failed" as you call it, by different amounts. Because you charge in series, and one or two cells from the 12 in each bank will be damaged faster by sheer luck than the rest. And these may be in any battery. But the way you are teying to measure them wont tell you anything useful.

I usually cannot go up a ramp when the batteries have discharged to 25.7 V … I can only go on flat ground and at that point.

Thats the voltage of a 95 to 97 percent fully charged battery.
HALF of 25.7 for one battery, so 12.85V is:

THE REAL PROBLEM, as I keep trying to explain, but apparently nobody listens, is that your batteries are both TOO SMALL to provide the current (AMPS!!!) that your motors draw, because of their IMPEDANCE, and because of the related PEUKERT effect. It means that the voltage collapses fast every time you try to load them highly. Like when you turn or move!!! A battery is not a fuel tank. Wrong batteries. Worse they die faster still because you are murdering them due to size. I am only surprized that they last months rather than weeks.

Again you wont listen... Theres nothing wrong, other than wrong batteries, and too small for purpose. And no idea how to test. I give up.

One last go. Charge fully overnight + 6 hours with your mobility charger.
Put a voltmeter on each battery in turn. Reverse to a wall. And pull the stick back, so that the chair is pushing against the wall for 10 secs. The battery voltage will drop to around 9 volts. The controller wont allow them to go lower so your chair power is reduced instead. This is because of batteries that are incorrect, too small, damaged, too high impedance, and so not working even when over 90% full!!!

[jehan]

This is because of batteries that are incorrect, too small, damaged, too high impedance, and so not working even when over 90% full!!!

Dear BM, I get all of what you’re saying… But this is what I have to work with… So help me make the most of it..... Will buy you a whole bunch of s to make up for the trauma !

So, from what you and Woody suggest

1.start with a fresh set of 4 batteries
2. Parallel charge for 2 days (at what voltage? 13.8V , trickle charge ?)…. To balance the batteries
3.run against the wall test

Some Questions:
A.what voltage should I charge these Amaron batteries at?… I’m currently charging at 2.4 V/cell (28.8 V)… Do I need to bring it down to 2.23V/cell (27.6 V)? According to datasheet float is 13.4 to 13.8 and boost charge is 14.1 to 14.4

B. would it help if I set up a balance charge with the PL8 on a nightly basis 10 to 12 hours?…

C. what am I trying to see when I run against the wall test?

[Burgerman]

You do not understand. It doesent matter what you have to work with. They will NOT work.

Dear BM, I get all of what you’re saying… But this is what I have to work with… So help me make the most of it..... Will buy you a whole bunch of s to make up for the trauma !

So, from what you and Woody suggest
1.start with a fresh set of 4 batteries

I did not suggest those batteries. You are wasting your time, wrong battery type, too high impedance, voltage will collapse under load NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO!!! But yey, NEVER add new batteries to old.
And 3 months from now you will be back with the same problems, and will have dismal range and performance from day 1 due to impedance and too small battery.

2. Parallel charge for 2 days (at what voltage? 13.8V , trickle charge ?)…. To balance the batteries

It doesent matter. Those batteries are not suitable. But if you must fit them, then do it at 13.5V for 48 hours. You should not trickle charge lead batteries. You should float charge them at a lower CV float voltage to ensure all are equal and full.
3.run against the wall test

Some Questions:
A.what voltage should I charge these Amaron batteries at?… I’m currently charging at 2.4 V/cell (28.8 V)… Do I need to bring it down to 2.23V/cell (27.6 V)? According to datasheet float is 13.4 to 13.8 and boost charge is 14.1 to 14.4

Doesent matter what you choose. They will not work, voltage will collapse under load. But charge at 14.4V until current falls to 1000thC or 8 hours, which ever occurs first at 20C. Lower to 14.2V if its 30C.

B. would it help if I set up a balance charge with the PL8 on a nightly basis 10 to 12 hours?…

No it wont help, which is why it cannot balance lead batteries. Charging lead at above the fully charged voltage automatically keeps them in balance. But they will die anyway in a couple of months as the batteries are not large enough or suitable for high currents.

C. what am I trying to see when I run against the wall test?

Its a simple LOAD test. If the batteries were any good they would drop a little, from ABOUT 25.7V by about 1 to 2 volt. But your UNSUITABLE batteries are too high impedance and voltage will fall to around 18 to 20V and worse triggering the controllers protection circuits and stopping the chair. Getting worse as they become discharged, or after damage it causes and deterioration in use in a couple of months. BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT SUITABLE. So in a couple of months you will be back with the same story.

[jehan]

Thanks BM…. I guess you missed this… I AM SWITCHING TO LITHIUM…..

SHOULD HAVE DONE IT BY NOW BUT WAS DISTRACTED……

I’VE ALREADY GOT THE PL8…

I NEED THE LEAD SET UP TO KEEP ME GOING FOR 3 MONTHS TILL I GET THE LITHIUM IN PLACE.

It doesent matter. Those batteries are not suitable. But if you must fit them, then do it at 13.5V for 48 hours. You should not trickle charge lead batteries. You should float charge them at a lower CV float voltage to ensure all are equal and full.

Do I need to charge them individually before parallel charging for 2 days at 13.5 V?

Doesent matter what you choose. They will not work, voltage will collapse under load. But charge at 14.4V until current falls to 1000thC or 8 hours, which ever occurs first at 20C. Lower to 14.2V if its 30C

You've already given me the PL8 file with the settings… The datasheet says it's 20 C… So I'll stick with that

Its a simple LOAD test. If the batteries were any good they would drop a little, from ABOUT 25.7V by about 1 to 2 volt. But your UNSUITABLE batteries are too high impedance and voltage will fall to around 18 to 20V and worse triggering the controllers protection circuits and stopping the chair. Getting worse as they become discharged, or after damage it causes and deterioration in use in a couple of months.

Is the run against wall test just a reference for me to see how bad the batteries are and keep track of deterioration?

[Burgerman]

When you get new batteries, connect all 4 with jumper cables on the bench in parallel. Charge at 13.5 to 13.6 for 2 days. But just being connected together without even charging for 2 days will also level them all up regardless. But they may not be full. So if you do this, then after installing them then charge overnight normally at 14.4V, as normal.

The stalled motor - wall - test is to show you so that you understand the issues, that the reason the batteries wont work is because they are too high impedance. And also too small capacity. It means the voltage collapses to the point the controller reduces power to the inadequate level. They are not suitable. You are throwing money away. They will sort of work for a couple of weeks or so, with very limited range and low torque and control, only if fully charged/new. After then, they are toast.

It shows you WHY:
Once you have used just 2 or 3Ah from your 36Ah battery, it cannot propel your powerchair any longer.
Not because its discharged. Since it is plainly not. But because its RESISTANCE and voltage drop under load increased!

[Burgerman]

Just thought of an easy way to explain your problem to you.

Imagine buying 3 of these:



Connect in series. 3x 9V is 27 Volts. Thats fine for your chair. So fit three of these in place of your lead batteries.

Question. Do you expect the chair will turn on?
Answer: Yes it will, and the battery gauge will show a full battery.

Question. Do you think the chair will drive, even 1 inch?
It will not move at all, the brake will not click, the motors will not turn at all. And the battery lights and all the other lights will go out. When you centre the joystick, they will come back on again. And read full again.

Why?

[flagman1776]

Just to be clear, when you replace batteries, you are replacing all of them, as as set. It's an inefficient set up but made to fit the available space... should have been better designed. It is 2P, 2S. If you connect new batteries with old in the set, the old will such the life out of the new ones. It's hard to believe a better battery plan couldn't have been in the build.

[jehan]

thanks for the replies… I got the message

Still waiting on EV assemble for the last week to confirm shipping lithium to India!

When you get new batteries, connect all 4 with jumper cables on the bench in parallel.Charge at 13.5 to 13.6 for 2 days

Do I need to do this through the PL8 or just directly from a power supply set to 13.5 V?

[Burgerman]

Power supply. Anywhere between 13v to 13.5v. As long as they are linked together really for a long while.

[jehan]

When I charge the wheelchair (4 batteries connected)through the PL8 the Max amps that it charges at 4.5 A… Is that correct or is there something wrong with the wiring?

I thought 4 batteries, each with a rated charging ability of 4.5 A should be accepting more amps?

[jehan]

charging through the Anderson + original wiring 2S 2P