group 4 chairs

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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby swalker » 17 Feb 2021, 05:11

Expresso,

I think it is more about the people involved than the actual company. NuMotion was fine until 1.5 years ago when the good staff left.

I had a C500 wheelchair damaged by Southwest airlines in January and February of 2020. Southwest arranged for NuMotion to come to my house and do the repairs. After 9 months and many visits, NuMotion declared the wheelchair repaired. I knew that it was not. Southwest arranged for a second opinion visit by National Seating and Mobility.

It took the National Seating and Mobility tech less than a minute to confirm the damage I knew had not yet been repaired (the brake/gearbox/motor assemblies were damaged). Tomorrow, National Seating and Mobility will make their 5th visit to my home to try to repair that wheelchair. So far, NS&M has made one visit to assess, one visit with the wrong parts, one visit with the right parts, but unable to replace them so took the chair with them, another visit to deliver the chair, and tomorrow a visit to replace a part they damaged during the previous repair. It has been over a year since the damage occured and that wheelchair is still not operational!

Through all of that, I discovered that one of the good techs that left NuMotion is now working at National Seating and Mobility. I plan to continue to try to work with NS&M, rather than NuMotion, for repairs going forward.

Steve
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby expresso » 17 Feb 2021, 05:24

thats a shame - should never be that way - so called techs are idiots - most are - not all - i have one good tech i use only - i dont bother with the rest - i ask for this one tech and thats it - if he left numotion and went to another vendor - i would follow -

numotion is only as good as there tech are - i am surprised its taking so long to figure out a issue - normally they just replace parts - no one does a repair really -

now i had a friend who was with HME - and they keep changing batteries on her chair - died in a week or two - they just changed new ones two or 3 times - now - any idiot would know to check the connector wiring etc.

anyway i had her change to Numotioni and after stressing to them - it turned out to be the wiring - it was green inside - they had to change the wiring connector - thats it - new batteries and done -

i would complain to the top guys at numotion - ask Rolling if you want him to do it - most time - the top guys just dont know what is going on - so it seems as if everything is fine - when most Numotion locations are going down hill fast

i used to talk good about them and get users to switch - now - i dont care - i say if in home repairs is that important to you - then numotion if you dont care about that - then try another vendor -

HME or that one your using - in home repairs is the only thing keeping me with Numotion today - and that one tech - other than that - i couldnt care less - - rolling can help you if you want - hes ready to jump in -
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Rollin Positive » 19 Feb 2021, 00:49

swalker wrote:Regarding a Group 4 wheelchair, Rollin Positive said:
Rollin Positive wrote:
When the orders were sent to Medicare they review it then send it to my insurance (Aetna Medicare Advantage) and it was approved 100% in 2 weeks!


I think the fact that Rollin Positive has a Medicare Advantage plan is a very key difference.

For those who don't know, in the US, Medicare is a government health insurance program available to qualifying folks over the age of 65 or who are sufficiently disabled.

Medicare has several options. Loosely stated, the base portion, called Part A and paid for by the Government, only covers 80% of the cost of treatment and then only for treatment provided in a hospital setting. An optional portion paid for by the patient, Parth B, provides coverage outside of a hospital setting, subject to a deductible.

A Medicare Supplement policy is an optional policy provided by an non-government insurance company, paid for by the patient, that provides varying degrees of standardized coverage, depending the option selected.

A Medicare Advantage policy replaces Medicare and must provide the same coverage as Medicare, but can optionally provide much more.

Most folks would either get a Medicare Advantage policy or get Medicare Parts A and B along with a Medicare Supplement policy (and potentially other options I have not mentioned)

Rolling Positive apparently has a Medicare Advantage policy, and his insurance company is apparently more lenient about which wheelchairs they will fund.

I have Medicare Parts A and B along with a Medicare Supplement policy. Neither Medicare Parts A and B nor my Medicare Supplement insurance company willingly cover a group 4 wheelchair, unless there is a medical necessity for a capability only available on the group 4 wheelchair. This must be a medical necessity for carrying out essential Activities of Daily Living (ADLS) inside my house.

So, why don't I have a Medicare Advantage policy if they appear to provide better coverage? Because none are available that would allow me to see doctors within 100 miles of where I live. So, I am essentially excluded from the Medicare Advantage policy market.

It is a confusing mess, but the bottom line is that getting "Medicare" to cover a group 4 wheelchair is quite the challenge, and in my case would have been 4 to 5 times more expensive than buying a used one.

Steve


Great explanation I am very lucky I dont go to the doctor much one or 2 times a year for a cold etc. so for me at this last 4-5 years mobility was my important thing so I did my choice backward I picked an advantage plan that used NuMotion for a DME and picked a new doctor which ended up being a great doctor

I also agree that advantage plans are a big win for us as they are much better run then Medicare a government program
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Rollin Positive » 19 Feb 2021, 01:03

expresso wrote:https://icsny.org/disability-advocates-praise-new-york-state-medicaid-changes/

means outdoor chairs can be billed allowed - means group 4 - i am sure insurance may still push back - its new and they all will be notified by the state - if they deny - fair hearing will approve anyway - so if you doing a chair today -

and you need a group 4 outdoor chair - insist on one with the vendor - who ever it may be - if they say no - show them this and if they dont want to place the order - find another vendor and report them - file a complaint etc, -

change always take some time for all parties to get used to the new norm. :thumbup:


I would not go there in less you did the research I was talking about...outdoor chair doesn't mean group 4 just means outdoor which can also include group 3 chairs..
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby expresso » 19 Feb 2021, 01:11

of course group 3 can go out doors - group 1 can also - but up till now - the wording didnt include community use - means outdoor -

was always indoor use - i agree dosnt mean group 4 automatically - i feel its going to be easier to get - if a good letter of justification is made to warrant one chair over another.
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Rollin Positive » 19 Feb 2021, 01:22

swalker wrote:Rollin Positive, I am glad things worked out for you. They have and will continue to not work out for me. Here is why.

1. Medicare Advantage is not practically available to me. The closest doctor would be 100 miles away. I must do something else, and in my case that is a Medicare Supplement policy.
2. NuMotion was slow but got things done 3 years ago. About 1.5 years ago, there was a turnover in the local staff. Most of the good folks are gone. Those that remain are just not able to get things done.

The closest NuMotion office to me is 100 miles away. I worked with them for 9 months to try to buy, for cash, a new wheelchair. No insurance was involved, no approvals were needed. After 9 months, I finally gave up and tried to switch to a different NuMotion office that is 150 miles away. I was told I could NOT switch, because it is like a car dealership. Once I start working with one salesperson, that salesperson owns the commission on that wheelchair, so no other salesperson will help. I could not switch to a different salesperson no matter how hard I tried.

So, what am I supposed to do? NuMotion is so broken that they cannot serve my needs. There is only one alternative provider within 200 miles of me, and I am not convinced they are any better.

That is why I have decided to bypass the new wheelchair market and buy used wheelchairs. Once I find a wheelchair I want it can be mine in a few days. I drive just as far (typically about 100 miles) as I would to work with NuMotion. Instead of making 5 trips to NuMotion and not get a wheelchair, I only have to make one trip to buy a used wheelchair.

The system is broken in the US. Medicare certainly needs to change their rules, but in my opinion, NuMotion is the real culprit. They are a monopoly player, having bought up or driven out of business their competition (at least where I live). They behave like a monopoly, which makes them difficult to deal with.

Steve


Forgot to tell you when we chatted did you get the x8 I sent you its a good price dont worry if your not in to the camo I can teach you a simple color change its cool product I worked with the company its $12 cost and it sprays on and when your done and want to do a new color it peels off super durable

NuMotion has super high turn over and if you have issues with a employee its simple to change just as the gm of that store.

I did it once no problem

If you are far from a NM they come to you for everything from ordering to service


Are they perfect hell no but so much better then mom and pop dmes


Oh also it didnt go well my new Permobil F5 had problems so I demanded under the AT Lemon law it be replace new F5 coming 2 weeks!

State: AZ
Title of Act: Assistive Devices Warranties Act
Year: 1998
Types of AT Covered: all assistive devices, except hearing aids
To Qualify as a "Lemon," the AT Must Have Been Repaired: 2 times within 1st year
-OR- The AT Must Be Out of Service for: 30 days cumulative
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby swalker » 20 Feb 2021, 00:03

Rollin Positive wrote:
did you get the x8 I sent you its a good price dont worry if your not in to the camo I can teach you a simple color change its cool product I worked with the company its $12 cost and it sprays on and when your done and want to do a new color it peels off super durable

Oh also it didnt go well my new Permobil F5 had problems so I demanded under the AT Lemon law it be replace new F5 coming 2 weeks!



I did not go after that X8 for 2 reasons. First, I am not going to be wheelchair shopping until I get a COVID vaccine and the COVID menace has subsided a bit. Second, It is an older X8 with the Dynamic Controls rather than RNet system. I am looking for one with RNet. Camo is not a problem for me. My X4 is camo.

Sorry you had to return the F5. What were the problems with it that caused you to invoke the lemon law?

Steve
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Rollin Positive » 20 Feb 2021, 19:07

swalker wrote:
Rollin Positive wrote:
did you get the x8 I sent you its a good price dont worry if your not in to the camo I can teach you a simple color change its cool product I worked with the company its $12 cost and it sprays on and when your done and want to do a new color it peels off super durable

Oh also it didnt go well my new Permobil F5 had problems so I demanded under the AT Lemon law it be replace new F5 coming 2 weeks!



I did not go after that X8 for 2 reasons. First, I am not going to be wheelchair shopping until I get a COVID vaccine and the COVID menace has subsided a bit. Second, It is an older X8 with the Dynamic Controls rather than RNet system. I am looking for one with RNet. Camo is not a problem for me. My X4 is camo.

Sorry you had to return the F5. What were the problems with it that caused you to invoke the lemon law?

Steve


Makes sense...

Electronics wont go in to active reach that is the 20% forward motion, I also have power adjustable foot plate keeps changing positions when I use none footrest gestures on switchbox.

Seat back as it lowers grinding big time

Have had 5 + service calls even replaced the joystick no go

New chair should be here on the 9th a bit of a delay with the weather
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Burgerman » 20 Feb 2021, 20:13

Those are programming settings in the non R-Net parts of the system that we cant program for ourselves on permobils. Because they are permobil parts instead of proper R-Net parts.

And apparently they cant program their own parts properly either! And thats why you are getting a replacement. Cant fix it? Swap parts at random till it works. Or swap the full chair. What will you do if this new one is the same?

And this is one of the reasons that I personally wouldnt have a permobil. It isnt user programmable meaning you must rely on others that appear not to be capable. Because on almost any other R-Net chair such as my own Salsa and Q700R, or the Magic mobility chairs, or Amysystems, etc; I could fix those issues myself in a few minutes without a need to even call dealers/permobil. Better still, I can choose all the seating settings to do exactly what I want/need. And if you were to get yourself a programmer and ask a few questions on here so could you!


Have had 5 + service calls even replaced the joystick no go

Why on earth would they replace the joystick! :cussing
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby swalker » 20 Feb 2021, 22:26

I am sorry you had such problems with the F5. I agree that some of those issues are programming, but at least 2 of them are not. Returning it under the lemon law was certainly the right thing to do.

The grinding noise is surely not a programming issue.

There is an interesting interplay between the mechanisms for moving the various seat actuators. On the F5 I returned, I discovered that various actuators would start slowly oscillating under certain conditions. After enough trial and error, we (the NuMotion ATP, the Permobil regional rep and I) identified a pattern. The Permobil rep claimed that it is a problem with how Permobil integrated the R-Net system with Permobil's proprietary ICS system. They had never seen it before, but identified it as such and said it cannot be fixed. I have confirmed this issue exists on a different F5 as well, so believe it is a problem in all F5s.

Knowing what the issue is, I can easily work around it and that issue alone would not keep me from getting another F5.

I returned my F5 because of unacceptable caster flutter (which cannot be adjusted with the new caster brake arrangement) and repeated failures of the power module.

I fear the version of the F5 Permobil introduced in 2019 is a big step backwards and unsuitable for my kind of use. Too bad, because I really like the earlier F5s.

Steve
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Burgerman » 20 Feb 2021, 22:39

It can be if the programming puts the anti sheer in a wrong position so its catching something it shouldnt when operating other functions. Maybe back too low when reclining or whatever. And it can also allow it to hit the end stops if used to go beyong its permitted travel and causes damage. On R-Net these are normally detected by current rise, and its adjustable for various parameters such as max Amps and others. But its all done by the permobil seating electronics/parts so we cant configure it ourselves to straighten it out. Again we must rely on them. I dont like having to rely on others. Esp when they have a record of never being able to do anything other than substituting obviously incorrect parts (joystick above for e.g.) and endless waits for another go...
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby ex-Gooserider » 23 Feb 2021, 03:40

Rollin Positive wrote:I hear you, I dont think myself in the US its any one group or person but I do think that the mobility industry as a whole is broken and run by non disabled so it makes it hard because they are all about selling units so if they can fund a group 3 faster and someone is making commission of those sales its a proven fact that when money is involved it dictates behavior

Are we talking Mark Smith?


Who else appeared in virtually every issue of New Mobility as their "Power Chair EXPERT" and general commentator on mobility tech???

As to the industry - I originally got my first manual chair through "Hudson Seating and Mobility" (later became part of NSM, and may have been at the time, not sure) because they had a sweetheart deal with Spaulding where I did my rehab that gave them a sales office in the hospital, and patients were taken to "The Wheelchair Clinic" to be measured and fit for their new wheelchair... It was never explained that this was a distinct company from the hospital or that there were other vendors and options.... You got sent to the clinic where you were told what options your insurance would cover and got measured, etc.... As a newly injured person who had never dealt with this stuff before, I didn't even know what kind of questions to ask....

Hudson / NSM was a disaster to deal with - wouldn't return phone calls, techs showed up with no parts, or the wrong ones (despite having the original order form that listed the right parts) one broke a plastic bushing on my chair and told me it wasn't an important part and that Sunrise had just put it on for the h... of it.... (I called Sunrise tech support, they did not agree...)

I have switched to Numotion, and they aren't all that much better... My latest round was some minor repairs on my manual and shower chairs - Nothing I couldn't have fixed myself, but the only way to get insurance to cover the parts is to call in the tech.... I think I first called in the problem in November last year, (I can't find date on calendar) I got the work done on Feb 10... They called Christmas week and said they had gotten the parts for the shower chair, (turned out to be defective STEEL wheel bearings as the main problem, RAZ said they had spec'd SS, but their supplier sent some wheels w/ plain steel and they didn't catch them) but not the parts from Sunrise, but they were "being shipped".... If one is to believe Numotion, it took over a month for the parts to get from Sunrise to their office. (talk about SNAIL mail....)

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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Rollin Positive » 23 Feb 2021, 18:21

ex-Gooserider wrote:
Rollin Positive wrote:I hear you, I dont think myself in the US its any one group or person but I do think that the mobility industry as a whole is broken and run by non disabled so it makes it hard because they are all about selling units so if they can fund a group 3 faster and someone is making commission of those sales its a proven fact that when money is involved it dictates behavior

Are we talking Mark Smith?


Who else appeared in virtually every issue of New Mobility as their "Power Chair EXPERT" and general commentator on mobility tech???



ex-Gooserider


I have to tell you being friends with him on a personal level the looking back after defriending him he was a man confused and 100% caught up in his celebrity!

He said he was for the people but more was used by many for parts and free batteries

He also lost track of what endusers wanted and needed and was way to fast to defend Pride power chairs vs listen and take critical feedback

To kick enusers off his website too was an interesting way to deal with people that had other ideas different then his

I can remember him being so behind the Edge series chair that had small nf22 batteries why would any mobility manufacture put that small of a battery in a power chair and limit you rider to 6-8 miles?

banghead
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Burgerman » 23 Feb 2021, 20:17

Because things like smaller 2 pole motors, smaller batteries and smaller power controllers save a lot of $$$. At the same time hey save 2 inches in width between wheels. So great for marketing. It means that your group 1,2,3,4 insurance thing, has a new lowest priced chair they can sell more of. If they can fool the masses they make a lot more money! Judging by the amount they appear to have sold...

22NF is not adequate unless you are a ballerina or sit at home drinking coffee most of the time. They may have the range to get you to the shops initially. But that tortures the battery and then it dies and has less range within weeks due to inadequate mobility chargers and too high average depth of discharge, and higher Amp load per Ah. Its a perfect storm.

With modern 185KG fully loaded rehab chairs, and an average weight user group 24 batts now suffer the same fate. Things got heavier and greedier. The batteries now get charged worse than with the old style chargers too. So batts dont last, and dont give adequate range. And this spirals rapidly. But there are ways to keep them healthy if you are bothered.
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Gnomatic » 23 Feb 2021, 21:51

Rollin Positive wrote:
I have to tell you being friends with him on a personal level the looking back after defriending him he was a man confused and 100% caught up in his celebrity!


Agreed. Once he got hired by Pride things started going south on his website. He banned many on here. He did not appreciate people more knowledgeable than himself, let alone tolerate them on his board. It was all "Mark knows best." and "Sent you some free replacement batteries. Thank you."
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Rollin Positive » 24 Feb 2021, 02:01

100% agree Pride would create a problem that really wasn't an enduser problem (they still do this (Pride))

Then create a marketing campaign around it like it was an amazing creation?

Then they would put Mark in the chair and run him around the country.

On several occasions he would flat out lie to me about the miles available per charge but always had a reason why I never came close.

Total B@#Z S@#4

He had no problem no answering people when they asked legit questions

It got so bad they closed both websites Wheelchair Junkie and Prides enduser website because so many people went on both to complain vs praise the equipment

Feel bad for the guy because I don't think he realized for him it was about Pride loyalty vs being honest and fixing true issues on the next chair vs repeating them.
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby ex-Gooserider » 02 Mar 2021, 03:55

Rollin Positive wrote:
ex-Gooserider wrote:
Rollin Positive wrote:I hear you, I dont think myself in the US its any one group or person but I do think that the mobility industry as a whole is broken and run by non disabled so it makes it hard because they are all about selling units so if they can fund a group 3 faster and someone is making commission of those sales its a proven fact that when money is involved it dictates behavior

Are we talking Mark Smith?


Who else appeared in virtually every issue of New Mobility as their "Power Chair EXPERT" and general commentator on mobility tech???



ex-Gooserider


I have to tell you being friends with him on a personal level the looking back after defriending him he was a man confused and 100% caught up in his celebrity!

He said he was for the people but more was used by many for parts and free batteries

He also lost track of what endusers wanted and needed and was way to fast to defend Pride power chairs vs listen and take critical feedback

To kick enusers off his website too was an interesting way to deal with people that had other ideas different then his

I can remember him being so behind the Edge series chair that had small nf22 batteries why would any mobility manufacture put that small of a battery in a power chair and limit you rider to 6-8 miles?

banghead


Junkie-Wheelchair is the ONLY site I've ever gotten banned on in over 40 years of being online - (My first modem was 2400 baud, and I was using it on a variety of BBS sites (TBBS, WWIV, etc) long before there was any such thing as a publicly accessible Internet...) OTOH I've been a moderator on at least a couple of sites...

Mark banned me after I called him out as being Pride's "Token Gimp" just like some companies had "Token" black (or female) employees back in the early days of affirmative action.... He claimed engineering chops, but I never saw much sign of them, however Pride made sure to roll him out front and center at Abilities Expos and other such events.... After I met him in person at one of the expos, I became (as far as I know) the only banned user on WCJ to ever get "resurrected". (I was tempted to change my user name to Jesus.... :P ) I never really posted much after that though as I had found WCD, and didn't see much point in doing anything on Mark's fan-site....

BM also may still have a link to that rather odd thread where Mark appeared to be posting as a different user complaining about how mad he was that Mark had arranged a bunch of new parts and repairs (free of course) but wasn't willing to replace his entire chair... BM traced the IP addresses, and it seemed to be coming from Pride or close to it....

Mark was a decent enough guy in person the few times I met him at expos, but I don't think he did the wheelchair using community any good overall....

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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Rollin Positive » 02 Mar 2021, 19:04

I agree as a person nice guy would give the short off his back to help

As a positive spokesperson for our community he could sperate his Pride connection to true valid advice and direction.

I remember that posting and when you google searched the I.P. it took you right to the parking lot of Pride in PA!!

Opps...
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Burgerman » 02 Mar 2021, 19:11

He was rather an odd person.
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby DSquare » 06 Apr 2021, 20:01

I started the process and made an appointment for a new evaluation for son. The eval is not till two weeks from now but I started emailing the DME provider about getting a group 4 chair. They are adamant that insurance would only cover group 3 chairs. Only in extreme rare cases when the stars align just right that will a group 4 get through insurance. They weren't even willing to call and find out for themselves.

I took it upon myself to call and after getting to a department that understood the different groups of power chairs I was then informed that as along as the doctor says it is medically necessary a group 4 will be covered. So at least it is a start in the right direction.
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Re: group 4 chairs

Postby Fusiongoat » 06 Apr 2021, 21:21

DSquare wrote:I started the process and made an appointment for a new evaluation for son. The eval is not till two weeks from now but I started emailing the DME provider about getting a group 4 chair. They are adamant that insurance would only cover group 3 chairs. Only in extreme rare cases when the stars align just right that will a group 4 get through insurance. They weren't even willing to call and find out for themselves.

I took it upon myself to call and after getting to a department that understood the different groups of power chairs I was then informed that as along as the doctor says it is medically necessary a group 4 will be covered. So at least it is a start in the right direction.

Also, you can always switch Dmes. They all suck, so it is not the end of the world if you have to go to a new one. Do you have a list of chairs yet? Maybe the Quickie S-646 SE is the easiest fast chair to deal with. I don't like them, but not for any reason you should care about. :)
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