Battery Drain

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Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 31 Jan 2021, 05:58

If a Chair is left On but not used - sitting - with 105ah in the chair - was full minus 10ah etc, - how long would it take to drain it to the point that it goes bad - damaged cells etc. ?

i feel it would take months - to drain it all the way down - -

reason being - i just realized one of my chairs - was ON - - dont know how long its been on - i think its a few weeks - or a bit more - i realized my chair moved from its spot - and when checking it was on -

i have it parked with a cover over it - covers the chair and JS etc, - what happened is and its not the first time - my cat - she manages to walk over the JS and hits the button turning it on - and then she moves it - i have the chair on very slow so it hardly moves the chair -

i first realized this when i was laying back to listen to some music - had some wine etc, - and out of nowhere - i seen my chair moving in front of me in the living room - turned out it was my Cat on top of the cover on the JS - the cover didnt help because it was pushing the JS also -

so after that day - i slowed it down to zero and left it alone - but i have to keep checking that its off - and just now i realized the chair was moved and checked - it was on -

i checked the volts - 26.1 pack volt - i know it means nothing - but i will check it with the pl8 after i finish with the current Cell -

i am not too worried - cant believe a 105ah lithium pack can be drained that fast just sitting - but with me - never know

when i ride all day and get home - -pack volt is 26v still - so checking the pack really dosnt say much -

whats the deal BM - how long would it take ?
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby Burgerman » 31 Jan 2021, 06:21

At a guess 2 to 3 weeks.

2 with lead if you are lucky. All depends which joystick etc. But dont do it! hanged
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 31 Jan 2021, 17:35

i have rnet on that chair - - so you think 2 to 3 weeks just ON - and it can drain a 105ah pack all the way down ?

i would have though alot longer than that - oh well - will check it once i am done with Cell 3 - discharging still - then recharge it - then i check it

i dont think it was going to be low enough to worry - but i guess 3 week 24/7 constant little drain - maybe - i am going to swap out that JS and put the newer version on it - that used permobil model i showed on here before

that way the power is a toggle and maybe my cat wont get to it as easy - this one has a button on the top - she walks over it and sometimes stops right on it - like the titanic standing at the tip :D shes cute but she is killing my apt - i got to sleep and she goes to work

she did it before on the pilot plus chair also - she stops on the horn button - its ringing and shes looking around to figure out where the sound is coming from - while standing on the horn
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby Burgerman » 31 Jan 2021, 17:38

Dont worry. Just check it every few days. Put a mouse trap on the joystick with velcro.

Last time I measured it was 170ma. So 10 hours is 1.7Ah. So say 3Ah a day. After 7 days thats 21Ah. After 3 weeks thats lead finished. And this was pilot plus. With r-net and seating modules, and gyros, and bright coloured screens etc it will be far worse.

If you really want to cnow just do the following. Turn it on. Use a CLAMP ammeter like the little red one that we showed you agaes ago on ebay. Over a battery cable. It will read in mA. Then you can do the adding up in your head. Every chair will be different. You can tell it in programming to go to sleep or suspend after x time I think. I am not sure how much that reduces the drain. Theres still 7 to 20mA drain even when completely off. Its why you should fit an anderson kill loop that you can take out on every chair. Then you can charge lead/lithium after 4 to 5 months.
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby LROBBINS » 31 Jan 2021, 19:37

On Rachi's new chair I used a lever-trip circuit breaker mounted on the back of the chair and when parked and not being charged I cut drain to 0 by tripping the breaker.
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 31 Jan 2021, 20:06

i even do have a breaker on that chair under my seat on the front frame - but i didnt get the one with the push button to work the breaker stopping the flow - i was worried if by accident it was touched or hit etc, at the time i wasnt sure where i was going to mount it - i was thinking inside - but then figured better outside so anyone can reach it if needed -

and thats what i did - but then i had to run wires - thats fine - but i didnt take into account when you pull the tray out all the way - so the wires are not long enough to do that - good thing i didnt have to open that box for past 5 years - but if i do - i have to remove the breaker wires first -

i am thinking of using a breaker again - not sure yet - but will leave it inside so wires are shorter and no issues if i remove - or run them out again closer location under seat 0r use a fuse - i have the fuses and fuse holders - breaker i would have to get - unsure yet
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby steves1977uk » 31 Jan 2021, 20:50

My 1980's chair that I use daily has an on-off switch on the battery box which cuts power to the PM. I always get my Carer/Family to flip it to the off position while it charges since it will help the LiFePO4 cells to balance better.

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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 31 Jan 2021, 21:08

i have a question - little off topic -

on the F3 - is there a switch of some sort that would cut power off to the chair ?

i have someone call me - she has a F3 and yesterday the chair worked fine - today it dosnt power on at all - one of her workers cleaned the chair - lifted seat up etc, and now it dosnt power on - i will go take a look later - person lives in my building

so if anyone knows - can tell me where the switch may be if its there - i can check that first - next would be the cables and after that - nothing i can do - i dont think anything is really wrong with the chair -
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby swalker » 31 Jan 2021, 22:21

My guess is that a cable got disconnected.

Obviously, the circuit breaker could have been thrown. That would be worth checking.

If it will power on, but not move, then check to make sure the freewheel switch was not moved into the freewheel setting.

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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 31 Jan 2021, 22:54

it dosnt power on - where is the breaker located ? or any other switch on the chair that cuts off power ?
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby Burgerman » 01 Feb 2021, 00:00

My guess, someone pulled a bus cable out or partly out.
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 01 Feb 2021, 00:24

hopefully its a cable that can be seen - and not broken ripped - always amazes me - goin back to the IQ - you can tell someone a million times - watch the cables or dont unplug the cords by pulling on the wire - they never listen -

unless your watching every step - cant just leave it up to them - i have to watch when i have someone else do something on my chair -
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby Burgerman » 01 Feb 2021, 00:27

Its not just the chair. Its *everything*.
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 01 Feb 2021, 00:37

yes your right - but it gets too stressful - i cant get too crazy or else i go crazy - but with the chairs - i dont let anyone touch it clean it unless i am there -

you known two of my chairs has a toggle to raise it or lower it - tilt only - and yet no matter how many times - how many years doing it

they never do it correct at the start - tilt chair back - always goes down first - then oh the other way - same with going down -

how many times does it take doing the same thing before you just know it correctly and thats just simple up or down toggle
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby steves1977uk » 01 Feb 2021, 01:05

A simple way to test is to plug in the charger and see if the chair is charging through the pod. If it doesn't then there could be a broken bus cable, blown fuse or bad connections on the batteries. In the past I've had a PM die on me, a rare occurrence but it can happen.

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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 01 Feb 2021, 01:09

shes calling it in for service tomorrow - i will let her know to try the charger and see what it does -

its most likely a cable - or if it has some sort of breaker - i recall those chairs had something like that -

figure someone here with a F3 - would know if they have it or not and where -
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby steves1977uk » 01 Feb 2021, 01:18

Most powerchair users don't maintain their chairs and then wonder why something fails. czy It is important to have a backup chair or two, or at least keep spare cables/pods/motors etc. :thumbup:

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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 01 Feb 2021, 01:54

she is using her back up chair - dosnt have the lift she needs but tilt and it works now

the F3 - there is no power at all - charge shows Red - volt meter at the JS shows NOTHING means no power at all

its either a cable which are so tucked inside things - you need to remove half dozen things to expose them and look -

or a fuse - or breaker which not sure there is one or not - thats what i was asking since alot have a F3 -

its not moving at all - call to tech going in tomorrow - let them take it apart and follow the cables -
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby Burgerman » 01 Feb 2021, 02:10

This is why all users NEED to know how stuff works, the basics, what does what, what connects to what. But most dont want to know. A problem such as she has would have kept me out of action for at least 3 minuts before I knew what was wrong, and or have it fixed or what was required to fix.

Tiny minor technicalities have most users totally screwed. Stuff happend when you are 100 miles from help. You need to be able to figure out what! Frankly all those people that say they dont want to know the details and just want it to work, or expect other people to deal with stuff usually get exactly what they deserve in the end.
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 01 Feb 2021, 02:20

your over doing it now - you cant expect every person to know how to build a rocket - some will most dont

you want a girl disabled cant do nothing - expert that person to rebuild the chair and figure it all out - think about it

i could have taken apart the items i need to look at the wiring if i wanted and she asked me - if it were mine i would have done it

its not mines - and permobil are a pain in the ass from the start - too much stuff to remove just to see the wire -

i think you and a dozen others here can and do some sort of working on there chairs - many cant for many reason

you sometimes forget - we are all disabled - in many different ways - its not one size fits all - but it is good to try make an effort -

remember also the workers - how simple things cant get done like a switch - up and down - never get it right - and you think trying to talk a worker step by step to take apart the panels - etc, your only asking for more problems -
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby Burgerman » 01 Feb 2021, 03:09

Why would every person know how to build a rocket? They dont use a rocket to get about every day.

You do need to understand the basics of a lawnmower. if you use one to cut the grass. You need to understand how to work the central heating timeswitch/thermostat if thats what you use to keep warm every winter. You need to understand a wheelchair basics if its essential to get about in the same way. You need to be able to do basic DIY to own a house or you will always have problems and expenses. If you own a PC you need to know how to properly configure it or fix it. Most dont. Etc You dont OWN a rocket!

Her permobil probem cant be that complicated. It will almost certainly be the connector for the joystick, or the breaker, or a battery connector unplugged or something obvious thats easy to get at that her carer knocked while cleaning. Highly unlikely to be anything complex. So nothing that cannot be easily fixed with some basic common sense and eyeballs! So she should learn what to look for, the basics of her chair. So these types of problems are easily sorted.

Same reason my ex brings her laptop here every time "it" screws up. She will not learn she refuses. To her its a telephone (skype, etc) and a shop. And a huge source of problems and cost. Because SHE screws it up. Been going on years. Actually she is gettin better now after 20 years...
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 01 Feb 2021, 05:41

she wants to keep seeing you thats why - the laptop is an excuse to see you all the time - :thumbup:

yes i know what your saying but no its not like that in real life - if you cant do it - you just cant do it - dosnt matter what the need is used for - not everyone is able to get it -

ask any girl to change your carburetor - adjust the timing - etc, and they drive there cars - so they should know - change plugs - tune ups

but they dont know - 1 out of a 1000 may - i am sure its a easy fix also and the worker really didnt clean it as i though - it was just a simple wipe down nothing major or digging in things wiring etc,

the wiring on that chair are not exposed at all - they are routed neatly inside plastic parts etc, - since theres no power - cant lift the seat up to look - but most likely wont see much since they are hidden - you have to remove half dozen panels to trace the wires -
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby Fusiongoat » 01 Feb 2021, 05:42

IMG_0088.jpg
expresso wrote:i have a question - little off topic -

on the F3 - is there a switch of some sort that would cut power off to the chair ?

i have someone call me - she has a F3 and yesterday the chair worked fine - today it dosnt power on at all - one of her workers cleaned the chair - lifted seat up etc, and now it dosnt power on - i will go take a look later - person lives in my building

so if anyone knows - can tell me where the switch may be if its there - i can check that first - next would be the cables and after that - nothing i can do - i dont think anything is really wrong with the chair -


On the F5 there is a circuit breaker switch on the back of the chassis cover an inch under the PERMOBIL label. Should be the same on the F3. This has happened to me a few times.
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 01 Feb 2021, 05:48

thanks good to know - but what has to be removed to reach it ? i am not able to do it - would need to direct someone - and i dont have that person till tuesday -


how does that get touched - if its hidden under a cover - i dont think the worker touched it - but still never know -

i may go check it again tomorrow night - if i can - i see when the tech will arrive - if its soon like this week - i let him do it and see

if not i go check again

so in the rear cover ? what has to be removed - just one cover - or a dozen other items before you can get to the cover - ?

thanks
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby swalker » 01 Feb 2021, 06:46

I do not have an F3. A quick scan of the F3 manual shows that the circuit breaker is in the rear and can be accessed without removing any panels.

Check out here for an illustration of where it is: https://www.manualslib.com/manual/10099 ... l?page=147

Steve
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby Fusiongoat » 01 Feb 2021, 06:52

expresso wrote:thanks good to know - but what has to be removed to reach it ? i am not able to do it - would need to direct someone - and i dont have that person till tuesday -


how does that get touched - if its hidden under a cover - i dont think the worker touched it - but still never know -

i may go check it again tomorrow night - if i can - i see when the tech will arrive - if its soon like this week - i let him do it and see

if not i go check again

so in the rear cover ? what has to be removed - just one cover - or a dozen other items before you can get to the cover - ?

thanks

It's inset. Nothing covers it. It will look the same on the F3. I didn't do anything before I took the picture. Just stick your finger in the little hole and flip the switch. My chair is from 2015, but I'd guess it's the same.
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby Burgerman » 01 Feb 2021, 07:07

Also, you know the joystick cable that you disconnect to add your programming dongle? My carer pulled that wire slightly partially disconnecting it, while swapping my cushion. And then told me he couldnt get it to turn on... 5 years ago. Those cables must be firmly pushed together and again can be pulled slightly with a quick wipe over if not careful. So push that tight together!

These types of things - breaker, joystick cable - are the sort of things that all users should know. Its not the same as fixing the carburettor. (you havent worked on a car for a very long time!). Bit like checking the window washer water, radiator, oil or swapping a blown fuse. If you drive and dont do those things it will all end badly/expensively...

My carer put petrol into a diesel car a few years back for e.g. She relies on her husband to fuel it up normally. Hasnt got a clue and doesent want to know - just drives it. That worked out as predicted. Fortunately he is a mechanic! So fixed it himself. NOW she knows...
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 01 Feb 2021, 17:13

later i will go see if i can see this breaker - the wiring is all hidden under plastic panels etc, along the frame etc, - like i said yesterday

i check as much as i can following the wire from the Joystick - to really check them good - have to remove half dozen items and the rear part to get to the end - i havnt done that - most likely not going to do it - unless she wants me to - but i will check the breaker for sure if its that easy - i never seen it exposed or have exposed on her chair - maybe i just never paid attention
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby expresso » 02 Feb 2021, 01:47

Yes it was the breaker - was off - either it tripped on its own - or was hit by mistake cleaning - its fine now - i showed them where it is so they can be more careful from now on

it most likely was hit by mistake - thanks !!! - :thumbup:
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Re: Battery Drain

Postby Burgerman » 02 Feb 2021, 01:57

Excellent.

Now you can see why a little look around her chair so she knows what is what, when she got it, would have meant the problem would be sorted in a couple of minutes. But she has no interest. So never even read the user manual.
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