New Wheelchair Time!

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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Feb 2021, 23:06

The speed is a concern for me as my m300 has the 7.5/8 mph motors. Would 1.5-2 mph make that much difference?


Its an exact percentage. Same motor (actually its more importan same conroller amps) then a motor thats 2x the speed has half the torque.

The 8mph motor has then 25% more speed compared to 6mph motor. So about the same amount less torque. And will take 25% more from the battery at every manoever and at every acceleration and speed.

Or do you mean does it feel that much slower?
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Feb 2021, 23:15

Its also not so simple.

A 6mph chair may be faster or slower than this nominal figure. Runflat tyres for e.g take more pushing and so slower. And also are usually a little smaller than many aftermarket tyres we fit. So that too makes a difference. Not to mention the weight of the chair, and user makes a difference. A basic chair, no fancy seating may be 90KG. A fully loaded rehab chair may be more than double this at 190KG. Then there are 7 stone users and 23 stone users. So the all up weight of a chair can vary by 300% or more! That totally changes its speed on the flat. And then theres batteries. They vary too. Some are low impedance and have litle voltage sag in use. Others are terrible and can lose 2 or 3 volts after a few mins loaded up in use. All of these things, affect actual speed. And thats on 1 make/type of chair. Different manufacturers use different motors. Some are rated very conservatively. Some are not. Batteries allowing, you can add a little speed by increasing max voltage slightly. Or a couple of volts with lithium. So rated speed is at best a guide.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Rollin Positive » 07 Feb 2021, 01:38

garriew wrote:
Rollin Positive wrote:If your looking for a chair that is really robust then Frontier is your chair!

Is there an option for faster speeds? Do you have the docking pin?

I wish they had a lithium option.


No I never liked docking pins never liked them but have heard of people installing them.

Same for Lithium but also know people that have done there own and or like expresso do add ons.

No speed it set to maximize torque for off road.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby expresso » 07 Feb 2021, 01:43

it would still be nice to have an option for 8mph motors for many users who like the chair but dont go off road - i understand for wood off road the slower motors are fine - but for city streets etc, too slow - other wise a nice chair the RWD V6
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby garriew » 07 Feb 2021, 02:49

Burgerman wrote:Or do you mean does it feel that much slower?
Feel.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Rye » 07 Feb 2021, 05:01

garriew wrote:I'm in the market for a new wheelchair and I'm looking at the Magic Mobility V6 "hybrid".

Any experiences? Other suggestions?

I currently have a Permobil m300.

MTIA



garriew, can you tell us a little about your disability and how well you're able to function independently?
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby garriew » 07 Feb 2021, 18:15

Rye wrote:garriew, can you tell us a little about your disability and how well you're able to function independently?
I have Spinal Muscular Atrophy type 2. I have limited strength and trouble turning 90degrees () but I believe that's partly due to JS position & programming..
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Rye » 07 Feb 2021, 22:11

Do you have clonus, muscle spasms, and/or muscle tone? I ask because I do and I have a Magic V6. I would not recommend the V6 to anyone with spasms. The way the front swingarms lift make the chair very jumpy. It's always setting off my tone...to the point I found and bought another used chair so I wouldn't have to be in the V6 indoors when I was moving back and forth a lot. The wheels lose traction constantly also. The only thing the V6 has going for it is driving straight over bumpy terrain. All the CONS far outweigh the one PRO. I prefer FWD because there are no castor wheels to hit your ankles and the larger drive tires are out front absorbing the shock (you have to use pneumatic tires to get the benefit of shock absorption though).
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby garriew » 07 Feb 2021, 22:31

Rye wrote:Do you have clonus, muscle spasms, and/or muscle tone? I ask because I do and I have a Magic V6. I would not recommend the V6 to anyone with spasms. The way the front swingarms lift make the chair very jumpy. It's always setting off my tone...to the point I found and bought another used chair so I wouldn't have to be in the V6 indoors when I was moving back and forth a lot. The wheels lose traction constantly also. The only thing the V6 has going for it is driving straight over bumpy terrain. All the CONS far outweigh the one PRO. I prefer FWD because there are no castor wheels to hit your ankles and the larger drive tires are out front absorbing the shock (you have to use pneumatic tires to get the benefit of shock absorption though).

No spasms or anything similar. A youtube guy added a permobil gyro to help with steering. What causes it to lose traction?
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Burgerman » 07 Feb 2021, 22:49

The real issue with all powerchairs steering doesent need a gyro to fix it. It just needs programming properly. By which I mean remove the walls, set turn acceleration and turn deceleration and minimum turn acceleration, and minimum turn deceleration to 100. Then set all the other things like turn speed or turn rate to whatever feels about right for you. You need OEM for that And then if it doesent track straight acros uneven ground increase motor compensation a touch till it does. If it gets jumpy around small stick movements as you start/stop/turn from stationary reduce the torque setting. I have a gyro. Its disabled! On every profile. Its not possible to get a chair to steer in a linear intuitive easy with natural feel with a gyro enabled.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Jay_x » 07 Feb 2021, 23:33

expresso wrote:it would still be nice to have an option for 8mph motors for many users who like the chair but dont go off road - i understand for wood off road the slower motors are fine - but for city streets etc, too slow - other wise a nice chair the RWD V6


Exactly. Even if you do a lot of off road stuff, I am sure there are plenty fo time the average user is moving on smooth paved surfaces and a little speed is always nice in those situations. Adding an 8.5 option wouldn't require a full re-engineering or anything either.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Rye » 08 Feb 2021, 01:25

The chair loses traction CONSTANTLY because of the bogey bars (swingarms) and the way they lift when turning or changing directions. It's good they lift when on soft ground and terrible because it makes the whole chair kinda twist on its horizontal axis one way or another depending on which way you're turning. I was excited to get it a year ago and then I spent a week in misery. It wore the tires out in under 6 months. I put new deep tread tires on it thinking that was the problem, but they have slipped just as bad. The problem could probably be remedied by adding some much much stiffer bogey arm springs or by ditching the springs all together and making the bogeys solid (no lift). I can't recommend the V6 until I fix the issue. I can recommend the Permobil C300 because that's what I spend all my time in on and offroad. Just install pneumatic mini dirtbike tires and it goes on soft ground just fine if you follow the power wheelchair offroad rules.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Rye » 08 Feb 2021, 01:27

garriew wrote:A youtube guy added a permobil gyro to help with steering.



It's not a steering issue. It's the bogey arms causing the the jumping.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Fusiongoat » 08 Feb 2021, 01:30

Jay_x wrote:
expresso wrote:it would still be nice to have an option for 8mph motors for many users who like the chair but dont go off road - i understand for wood off road the slower motors are fine - but for city streets etc, too slow - other wise a nice chair the RWD V6


Exactly. Even if you do a lot of off road stuff, I am sure there are plenty fo time the average user is moving on smooth paved surfaces and a little speed is always nice in those situations. Adding an 8.5 option wouldn't require a full re-engineering or anything either.


But, you can't have both. Either you have a slow chair that can go through the forest etc., or you get stuck in the forest in your fast chair and eaten by wolves :( The real point is that they are owned by Sunrise Medical now, so they don't need to compete with Quickie chairs.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Burgerman » 08 Feb 2021, 02:44

Its not about competing with sunrise's own chairs like quickie but all of the other brands!

If they compete with themselves they win whichever one you buy.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby garriew » 08 Feb 2021, 03:27

It sounds like the v6 might be better as an ebay purchase...

The bounder has some nice features but chain drive concerns me and the looks...

The new Permobil m300 has some nice features but I hate the turtle mode. Plus I'm not a fan of turtle mode when elevated.

What's left? A quickie P-222 SE?
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Burgerman » 08 Feb 2021, 07:53

Turtle mode is just a programming thing on all chairs with a lift or tilt to stop you going base over apex. But on other chairs you can easily just turn it off. As I do on my 2 chairs with turtle... Or set your own parameters/speeds etc. But permobil? I dont think you can...
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Fusiongoat » 08 Feb 2021, 08:13

Burgerman wrote:Turtle mode is just a programming thing on all chairs with a lift or tilt to stop you going base over apex. But on other chairs you can easily just turn it off. As I do on my 2 chairs with turtle... Or set your own parameters/speeds etc. But permobil? I dont think you can...

You can. I've seen it done by Dan on youtube and on an older F5. Dan only shows the result now because Permobil threatened to sue him.I don't know if it can be done on the newest, but I assume so.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Burgerman » 08 Feb 2021, 08:18

It can be done on some. I should have said reliably. It depends on exactly what permobil stuff is installed in place of r-net hardware and on specific firmware used by permobil. But there are definitely permobils around now that refuse any attempt at programming that isnt done with official permobil OEM software according to Rover. So dont count on it. They use their own modified and own versions of stuff. Why? I dont know. But since we cannot access permobil OEM software they are how shall we say, "difficult'...

Totally the opposite way of working than say Dietz powerchairs. They have the OEM software needed for full access on their chairs right there on the website for you to download. So not tying you to them. As permobil do. A refreshing attitude that treats its customers with respect. Rather than poking a stick up your ass and wiggling it about.

https://dietz-power.com/
OEM software. https://dietz-power.com/downloads-dealer-login/
They do not try to take the piss out of the dealer or user.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby garriew » 08 Feb 2021, 17:07

Burgerman wrote:Turtle mode is just a programming thing on all chairs with a lift or tilt to stop you going base over apex. But on other chairs you can easily just turn it off. As I do on my 2 chairs with turtle... Or set your own parameters/speeds etc. But permobil? I dont think you can...

What are yours?

Can the quickie have turtle shut off (by us)?
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Rye » 08 Feb 2021, 19:34

I've turned "turtle" mode off on 2 c350's and a c300. I do not reccommend turning off the seat lift inhibit though. That's a lot of weight on a thin shaft and the inertia could break the mounts (I've done it without being lifted). If that little lift shaft breaks... :thumbdown: .

V6 Bogie Arm Explanation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opx9KfiDyMU

He's right about getting more traction when the bogie arm is up, but what he's not saying is when turning only one bogie arm is up. That means you lose all traction on the opposite side. The opposite side is the one that drives the turn. So if you hold the joystick in the right position, you can make it slip all day and not turn. Watch at 1:19 how the whole chair has a horizontal torsion when he lifts one bogie arm. It does that every time only one bogie arm lifts (turning). You won't find V6 chairs on ebay too often.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Rye » 08 Feb 2021, 19:36

I don't know anything about the newer Permobil programming and turning off "turtle" mode..
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Rollin Positive » 08 Feb 2021, 19:42

The the newer F3 and F5 none stander they now roll walking speed at 3 mph elevated

Older models 1.5-1.2

v6 also elevated 2.5

If you bypass or hack inhibits you also would void warranty and subject to normal hourly repairs if your someone that doesn't repair your own chair


Most interested in Frontier do so because they are super active outdoors and most that want a Frontier because they want to go places a conventional chair cant imagine going.

For those here that have Frontier chairs they will tell you the independence will far out weigh a mile to a mile and half given up in top speed.

Bounder crazy fast chairs but they ride like a tank and minimal suspension and just big and clunky!

Turtle speed is set for indoor use so it has a purpose and its controllable though a programmer to a point but you can turn up some of the settings turning speed, reverse speed, acceleration etc.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Rollin Positive » 08 Feb 2021, 19:59

Way back in the day when life was all about speed and distance I worked with a guy who took my ideas and we made a seated Segway.

Crazy fast at 12 MPH could get 18-20 miles on a charge crazy fun!

But on a practical scale about a 2 of out 10


youtu.be/_8ePUGBeG7g


youtu.be/exFr3EXBI28
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby Burgerman » 08 Feb 2021, 21:00

What are yours?

Can the quickie have turtle shut off (by us)?

Yes.

My chairs are the older sunrise chairs, inc the Salsa (r-net) and and my newer Q700R. But that doesent matter. Anything - any chair with a normal generic R-Net system that uses R-Net (not permobil) components only can be completely programmed and changed in any way you want with an OEM programmer. With permobil you may or may not be lucky.

Unrelated. However:
Incidentally this vid at 29 mins, shows the problems with all front drive chairs regarding stability. In this case a permobil. As long as you continue to use the stock programming that I refer to as pudding steer mode, its almost ok. Because the delays in turn acceleration and deceleration disguise in mostly. But no way I can live with that. Once you know better its abysmal. As soon as you turn up the turn acceleration settings so it responds in almost real time, then it becomes obvious. Anyone that has never experienced a properly configured control system that gives you easy linear and proportional control will tell you its fine as it is. But those that have will never want a chair any other way. But if you do that with front drive the stability issue overides your new control and it all becomes a mess. You cant beat the physics. And when e says the stock programming on the f5 is better he is having a laugh. I have seen the turn acceleration/deceleration settings. To me those settings are what I call "hovercraft" steering... I could simply never live with that. This vid from 29 mins begins to try to show this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r7ywzP_NhQ 29 mins point! And this alone would prevent me ever wanting any front drive chair. I have tried them and its all too much of a compromise on control for me. Also dont like that long chair swinging about behind me battering things in tight spaces and running over peoples toes as you move about in a crowded pub for e.g. Rollin Positive will be along to say it doesent do this. Even though this video plainly demonstrates what I am saying.
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Re: New Wheelchair Time!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 09 Feb 2021, 02:09

Rollin Positive wrote:
garriew wrote:
Rollin Positive wrote:If your looking for a chair that is really robust then Frontier is your chair!

Is there an option for faster speeds? Do you have the docking pin?

I wish they had a lithium option.


No I never liked docking pins never liked them but have heard of people installing them.

Same for Lithium but also know people that have done there own and or like expresso do add ons.

No speed it set to maximize torque for off road.


If you don't have a docking pin / lockdown unit in your van, how do you secure your chair when driving????

I HATE the lockdown pin (I call it the 'tail-hook' as used in planes landing on aircraft carriers) because it constantly gets snagged on stuff, but I've never seen any docking systems that didn't use one except for a few model / brand specific units.... I also don't think straps are a viable option unless you have a handy helper with you all the time to do the strapdown (I've tried, and I can't work the straps to fasten myself down)

Any alternatives?

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