Personal wheelchair Budget?

[curiouscat]

Hi,

hope everyone had a good Christmas and New Year?

So I rejigged my letter and got this reply today after chasing. Where can I point them to to show that the money option that BM describes actually exists? All case studies show chairs being provided by WCS.

Here is the letter.

Thank you for your letter dated 20/1/22

I am sorry that we have been unable to provide a wheelchair within the NHS range which you feel meets your needs. Unfortunately, with the personal wheelchair budget scheme there is not the option for the funds to be paid directly to the individual. The payment is made to the supplier of the wheelchair.

We are unable to advise on a wheelchair for you to try if you choose this third-party option. You would need to arrange for an assessment with the supplier to identify a wheelchair which you feel meets your needs.

Although we provide a list of suppliers which we work with who will accept a personal wheelchair budget, this is not limited and there is scope for you to utilise alterative suppliers if they can meet your wheelchair needs. You would need to send us the information for this to be considered.

The cost of the cushion is not included in a personal wheelchair budget as we will continue to provide a cushion for your wheelchair whether it is NHS or not. If you find a cushion which you feel meets your needs that is within our range of equipment, we can order this for you if you provide us the details.

The only other option we could offer is to see if we can modify the footplate of the TDX low rider to give better support. We could see if it would be feasible to make a larger footplate. This is the only wheelchair we have within the NHS range which you have felt has been closest to meeting your needs. Please let us know if this is something you would like us to look into.

Reasonable as far as it goes. any pointers? Thanks.

[Burgerman]

So I rejigged my letter and got this reply today after chasing. Where can I point them to to show that the money option that BM describes actually exists? All case studies show chairs being provided by WCS.

Thats easy. Theres been a couple on here. No I dont know how to fing them. And I also posted my bank statements on here when someone told me that I was lying!

Of course thay tell you that. You have to make a case to show that you have a better outcome if you are allowed to do everything yursels. Buy, maintain, modify, sell, add your own funds etc if needed. Then they can give you a direct payment...

[Burgerman]

I am sorry that we have been unable to provide a wheelchair within the NHS range which you feel meets your needs. Unfortunately, with the personal wheelchair budget scheme there is not the option for the funds to be paid directly to the individual.

Lies... They produce this bullshit as a get out of jail free card. A way to do their job which is not to help you, but to spend as little as possible on you.

They BASE their funding on a salsa. To my spec. Against my own personal detailed assessement. At least this particulat year. Then I use it £££ however I see fit. We long ago got past their voucher scheme, and there "3rd party" schemes. That was no use to me. And I showed them this a decade or longer ago.

For e.g heres one letter I scanned that I just found, theres more and for 7k 6.3k etc too but not on my laptop, but this one says it all...
I have a newer one for the Q700 funding somewhere. In the past they based it on various chairs. I built BM2s. BM3 etc. And bough used/sold/rebuilt, bought spares, lithium etc. 3 yearly budget. I dont actually buy chairs every 3 years, I may rebuild 2, save for a new one for 5 years etc.

Anyway they CAN and do pay directly into your account... As several others on here alone have said too.

[Burgerman]

Non of this matters if you cannot identify why its better to give you the budget to spend in your own sweet way however you choose. Thats the only way to get a cheque. They dont have a clue what things are in direct contrary positions!

My budget AMOUNT is based on a chair they would need to provide if they were supplying. I may have no intention of buying that chair, or any chair. Thats how they work out how much to give me. I then decide what if any chair to buy. Or to rebuild one. Or to order spares such as 3 complete sets of motors, full r-net systems, wheels, tyres, bolts, wiring hardware, seat cushions new or used... Or an eBay chair like the Q700R.

[Burgerman]

Heres 2 recent ones...

[curiouscat]

Thanks BM,

Do you mind if I use these? I worked out my arguments. Is there someone, in particular, I should be addressing this to? At the moment I'm dealing with the OT at my local WCS. I did tell her if others need to see the letter to please forward it on but I doubt she has.

[Burgerman]

If you want. I dont mess around with OTs they are clueless and powerless. They use the "system" and follow their training, which is to make no decisions that might be more expensive than their standardised deckchair. Whoever runs the WCS is a start. If that gets you nowhere then go above them. Hospital administrators, and to the health minister and the local MP in my case. I had a limo with a bunch of execs from parliment, the health ministers personal secratary, and a guy from the local authority that ran the direct payments scheme all drinking tea in my BBQ area in the sun. I had a couple of numpties from the WCS there too, who I took apart and showed why they were so incompetant and why they couldnt assess me or much else, and that they were clueless about chairs. At that point they set up a new pilot scheme of 1 initially, and sent me a cheque based on the cost of a chair that I forget. A handicare one I think. Around 7.5K. And agreed 3 yearly because I was very hard on chairs. I was sat in a BM2 tipped back onto the 2 main wheels as I was talking to them.

Needless to say the WCS dont much like me. And I dont much care! They (not WCS!) set up this budget for me because I showed how incompetant they were, and PROVED that I could do better for myself with less money. Thats what it took originally. It was supposed to be available to all years back. But they refuse to accept it and keep telling people its called a PWB when they are talking about their olde voucher and other schemes...

They dont and wont accept the idea that they are cut out of the loop. They like all gov/socialist/institutions want to be in charge wasting millions and restrictng your opttions. They are scared of being left as redundant idiots while the end user gets the powr to buy/sell/build/modify or decide for themselves.

[steves1977uk]

They are SLOWLY getting round to implementing the PWB, as seen here... https://www.norfolkcommunityhealthandca ... nt-service Click on Personal Health Budget section.

Steve

[Burgerman]

The Personal Health Budget Scheme (formally the Voucher Scheme) is available to anyone who meets equipment provision criteria and would like an alternative to the wheelchairs our trust provides.

They STILL dont get it though. Its NOT "formerly the voucher scheme" They really are either idiots or fighting the system. It was supposed to run ALONGSIDE the voucher scheme and allow both options for years. They think that it IS the voucher scheme by a different name...

[Burgerman]

The Personal Health Budget Scheme (A NEW METHOD OF FUNDING YOUR POWERCHAIR NEEDS WHERE WE GIVE YOU THE MONEY -- CALLED A PERSONAL POWERCHAIR BUDGET -- TO BETTER DECIDE HOW & WHAT YOU SPEND IT ON, AS YOU SEE FIT FOR YOUR OWN MOBILITY NEEDS) available to anyone who meets equipment provision criteria and would like an alternative to the wheelchairs our trust provides.

Thats what it SHOULD say. Thats what I get. Thats what was intended.

[steves1977uk]

I know that BM, but try telling that to the CHC providers. Either they don't get what a PWB actually is, or they are refusing to believe the end user can spend the money more efficiently than they can hence they think it's the same thing. They should read this... https://www.england.nhs.uk/publication/ ... r-budgets/

Steve

[Burgerman]

Well the reason powerchair budgets exist is because I proved to them that I could do better with the same money. Much better! And that it allowed me the flexibility to do things my way. My maintainance. My backup chairs. And my BM2s at that time. With my OWN money. For a fraction of what the crappy 2 pole 4mph motorised breakdown a lot deck chair efforts they were doing in 97...

They coudnt really argue. Hence big arguments, and eventually gov sanctioned pilot budget trial of 1. As a direct payment. Because I demonstrated that I had a better outcome, and outperformed the hopeless WCS in that meeting.

[Burgerman]

I ask them a simple question. If and when they visit. They get a guided tour.

Using their low amount, thats the 5.6K they give me, could they provide me 5 chairs, inc a couple that are brand new, unmarked, with all my small modifications, 6mph+lights, 4 pole, 120A power, lithium on a couple, wider tubeless tyres, 2 of which are lift, tilt, recline, and inc 2 way power centre footrests, as well as a huge assortment of complete control systems, ready programmed up for plug and play, spare new/almost new motors, a wall of whheels/tyres stronger arms, etc. Because all my chairs were paid for by the money they give me. And my own sensible buying power, and personal skills.

They can only provide a barely usable powered deckchair that doesent work for me. And have no spares. Expect me to use a manual chair while they order the wrong parts... Weeks of inaction. I can order parts and have them overnight in some cases, or a week at most. Special order parts may be a little longer. But I have FIVE chairs and a room full of all the parts that fail! And crap loads of tools, chargers, etc.

When they suggest that they can do the same for me, for that same amount I will let them.

When the wheelchair services guy saw a boot full of r net parts and motors all new in my van a couple of years back he thought I was "made of money"... Until explained how my buying power from the budget, and some end user buying common sense meant that in a decade I had built up a wall of parts, as well as 5 fully serviced ready to rock 6mph powerchairs. Inc 2 new ones. At much higher spec than he ever saw or works on. The SAME money. And that means a better outcome for the SAME budget as they would have wasted. Also my way meant I wouldnt have to wait for him to order the wrong stuff and take weeks giving me my chair back!

[curiouscat]

Thanks, I writing my response now but not sure how I get out of corresponding with the OT. I need a hammer!

[Burgerman]

Do 3 or 4 coies, address to all those higher up in the chain.

[curiouscat]

Excuse such a 'dummy' question but how do I find out who is in the chain? I've searched the internet and found Social Services hierarchy in the process but no WCS.

[Burgerman]

Ask them. And ask the hospital receptionist who runs that hospital. Get names, address, and send copies recorded delivery. Above the WCS. And follow up on it... Its not just a battle its a war! You need to be very firm, and use facts, logic, their own rules against them, and dont be angry. It takes time. Accept nothing less than your own detailed prescription needs, and matched to a chairs prescription form, inc any mods needed. and your own personal budget. A direct payment.

I ended up writing to the health minister at the time. A mr lansley. And the direct payments administrator in my town, and the WCS wee only invited to the meeting to answer MY quesions and out of politeness. It was all conducted over their heads while I made them look incapable. And ineficient. Hence personal budget. £££ in my account to do as I saw fit. I showed them that I could do much better myself. With the same budget.

[curiouscat]

Thanks. It's not a hospital but someone must run it, I hope

[Burgerman]

WCS is a part of the hospital. The NHS.

[curiouscat]

I’m with you, thought you were referring to an actual hospital

[Burgerman]

In many parts of the country the WCS is at the actual hospital. The hospital administration (the 56% of NHS staff that push paper around, and employ layers upon layers of managerial hugely overpaid staff to do each others jobs) all "manage" the various hospital deprtments. Like the head of diversity, or heads of "lived experience" on 90k a year. In there somewhere are the heads of the funding, the WCS admins, etc. They do their best to avoid all contact with the public. Your job is to hunt them down.

[Dan]

Thanks, I writing my response now but not sure how I get out of corresponding with the OT. I need a hammer!

You must make a formal complaint. They will not listen to you any other way.
The NHS wheelchair services you are using will have a complaints procedure, you can normally find out about it on their webpage. Or you may have to e-mail them and ask them about it.

Google (the place you live) wheelchair services complaints procedure.

Think about what you think has gone wrong, like maybe you don't believe you have be assessed properly, or why you have not been offered something which you are entitled too. You must know why the chair they have offered you is not suitable for you. About the way they have treated you. You might think they did not take your concerns seriously or ignored you.
When you work your way through their complaints procedure if you are still not satisfied you can then take your complaint to the Ombudsman.

[Burgerman]

You must make a formal complaint. They will not listen to you any other way.

I didnt.
Its all internal. Like the police investigating themselves.
And I started the whole personal budget thing.
I did explain what went wrong, and wasnt very polite about it. But not to the WCS at all.
But it might make them pay more attention in this case.

[Dan]

Complaining to WS OT/management will probably be a waste of time but you never know BUT I have found the Ombudsman to be an very professional independent body.

[Burgerman]

The problem with an ombudsman, independent or othewise, is that they arbitrate between you and the WCS "rules"... Which cant chang any of them. Which is why I didnt bother with any of that. And the NHS complaints procedure is not indpendent as far as I know. I tried that with my doctor over their incompetance. It went nowhere.

[curiouscat]

Thanks Both,

I think they are trying to help in their limited way. I'll see what reply I get to my latest letter and go from there. I have set a reminder in my phone to nag them weekly. That way I don't need to give it much headspace in between times.

Do you have a WCB Dan?

[Burgerman]

I think they are trying to help in their limited way.

If that were true they would reply to you same day, no need for any of this to take a year. And they would have explained in full detail what was happening, daily. You wouldnt need a reminder in your phone to call them at all.They should be calling you! But thats what would happen in a private company that ade its money from you, and its results. No this is a socialist structure that gets its money sprinkled in by helicpter and pleasing its customers doesent affect their income. To the contrary, the less they give out, the better they respond to your needs, the less there is to share out between their layers of staff and paper pushers. And they may have to deal with things on their own instead of groups, in "meetings" that achieve nothing. But at least they get cake and coffee.

No their job is to keep putting everything off till you either go away or accept a daft offer or accept their old system, renamed or their will. Their job in a socialistic NHS is not to help you, but to APPEAR that they are. And to spend as little as possible on customers case. And especially to be very sure that they are involved as much as possible in pretending to be busy in "meetings" panels, assessements, etc or the NHS may realise that they are an unused uneeded spare parts.

This is the nature of socialist style organisations. Over the years they find ever more inventive ways to pay themselves more to do less, and have less individual responsibility. Thats why we now pay almost 200 billion a year, (a monsterous 20.5% of gross national income) and you cant get an ambulance, a bed, with 8 hours ques for both! And theres 10 million people waiting over 2 years (in some cases over 10 years) for treatment. Its why you now cant talk to most doctors never mind get an apointment as they work 1 or 2 mornings a week. And are on the golf course. Its why the WCS are not interested in your chair/budget outcome other than to be sure it doesent eat into their budget. Its all used up on wages, buildings, offices, vehicles, etc.

[curiouscat]

You're right but if I don't be seen to give them a chance a responding then they can block me that way. I've found the complaints procedure and will be sending one next week.

[curiouscat]

BM, I received this letter on Tuesday, Advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

[Burgerman]

Write back. Tell them you dont care what their standard reply letter says. And that the whole cost of a chair thing is fine. PROVIDED that they send that sum to you. To your account. s they do me. At which point its no longer their business. So that you can spend it in YOUR OWN way to your best outcome regarding your own mobility. Thats why its called a pernoal budget. Not a select a chair from a list budget.

And that the very reason this budget exists in the first place is because I proved to the health department that I (ME) could do much more and had a better outcome doing things my own way. than relyingon the incompetant WCS. They BUDGET on a specific chair that meets my clinical and holistic needs. Based on my own self assessement. They then give me that sum, to spend on whatever I choose. I build, (BM1, 2 and 3) and maintain, repair, rebuild or buy and sell. As I see fit. Be that complete one off chair(s), a set of lithium/fat tyres, or whatever. Also I buy chairs used (q700r) new (salsa trade) as and when the proce and my choice decides. Making a nonsense of your standard form reply letter. I told you they dont like change. You must drag them kicking and screaming into 2023. Been doing this every THREE years since 2008.

For e.g my last budget was just over 5k. Thats 3 yearly.
I used that to pay for a Q700R that I had bought 5 months previously... For 4.2k including 6mph, 4 pole, 120A power module, 80Ah batts, lights, tilt, lift, recline, power centre footrest, gyro, and one of those (£700) switchboxes. Inc 12 month warranty. This was an eBay chair, had single digit miles and had never been used. I then used some of the remaining budget for mosd like smaller front tyres, FOUR lift off arm uprights. wider alloy rear rims and tyres and adapter etc. So I ended up with a MUCH better chair than they thought they budgeted for. And oney left over for repairs. But I am still using the salsa I bough trade brand new 3 years previously. So now in 2 years I already have a perfect chair, as well as a backup one. THEY can do that wih their system. So a modified 14.5K chair, for 5.4K total budget!

This is why you want the freedom to allow you to use your own brain. Not the borg collective socialist one they have. And this is why this scheme was invented. It wasnt to buy a chair, specifically or from a list! It was to let the USER decide whats best for them.