Permobil parts

[Burgerman]

While this is a pain to use it gives part numbers for permobil parts. And may allow you to order parts In the UK at least. If they wort ship directly then any permobil dealer should order the part number from here https://order-uk.permobil.com/en/content/exploded-views

At least I think so. Its likely to be guesswork as to whats wrong, and open wallet surgery but at least in this country it appears possible.

[martin007]

A good contribution for Permobil users.

[slomobile]

That is a huge help. Thanks.

For what it's worth, Permobil has recently released chairs with a modified R-net control system called power platform.
The "Master Module" is gone, replaced by what looks like a combined ICS hub, Rnet hub, and USB port on the back of the seat. The ICS LIN bus appears to be integrated into a new style of Rnet cables with Orange male ends instead of yellow and they have 2 extra pins. I've been hands on with it but not long enough to take it apart and see what makes it tick. Looks like the old yellow ended cables will plug into the new female ends, but the new orange cables probably wont plug into the old female ports.
The joystick screen has a slightly revised user interface.
Here is someone else's video of an example new chair.
https://youtu.be/sW8G-kmSV6s

[Burgerman]

Looks like they "permobilised it $$$" even more. It will be more locked down and impossible to figure out and get parts for that work than before.

Next he says they reduced the typical permobil 14 modules and the boiler room full of connecting cables to 7! Thats amazing not. My own full R-Net generic parts chairs have a total of JOYSTICK, POWER MODULE, and SEATING/LIGHTING MODULE. Thats 3 when I last counted. And that requires just 2 bus cables and the motor and battery connection.

They are making everything more customised away from pure R-Net. Thats got to be a bad thing.

And it looks like its got a phone connection maybe a sim? But they are locking the programming down to make it impossible to get OEM level, almost garanteed. And so far only by phone/dealer or OBP which is all pretty crap! It may be that all R-Net will go this way. They are alsway trying to find ways to lock out the end user from proper programming tools...

Now has a "permobil" odd power module. But weird to understand what part is still R-net?
And still has more connectors and wires and different modules than a nuclear power station by the look of it.
Well thanks for the video link. But no thanks for the chair. Its all over permobilised and over complex and locked down. They do it on purpose to stop anyone from being able to fix, modify, repair, or program properly.

[Burgerman]

This is all thats required as a full generic r-net system as used by most manufacturers. All common parts that you can program, and get on ebay or from various chair manufacturers.

Full system all thats needed for 120A power, lift, tilt, recline, power centre footrest inc angle and length adjustment and lights and indicators and horn.

This shows the THREE modules, and 1 of the 2 bus cables. Thats all of it! Inc the seating loom. Plug each actuator into the connectors and good to go. Theres no need for it to look like an explosion at radio shack. And no reason to be tieed into permobils infrastucture or bespoke parts.

[slomobile]

I agree that fragmenting R-net even further is probably a bad thing unless all OEMs adopt the new system too. Frankly, I think Rnet needs an open source competitor. Lenny and BM script for Roboteq, and Lenny's new control system might be that.

It is yet to be seen if usability of chairs will improve with these new Permobil parts. We also do not yet know for sure if they will be further locking down programming. It is one possibility. With the Colorado US "right to repair" law, manufacturers are required to allow Colorado wheelchair users to purchase OEM programming tools, including access to firmware. Rather than having different policy depending where they sell a chair, they might make the decision to finally open it up for everyone. Would anyone from Colorado like to test this?

If we get full access, we probably lose the ability to win lawsuits against the OEM for injuries related to changes we make. I'm ok with that. Routing programming only through the OEM with SIM cards is probably a way for them to track the changes each user makes, so that they can disclaim liability, or prohibit the change if they feel it is unsafe. I don't like that because I like to experiment and find the edges of what is safe for myself. But it could be a good thing for many. If I could sign a waiver to get full access, I would be all over that. Absent that option, I'm building my own chair for one of Lenny's modules.

I think permobil makes great chairs ergonomically and mechanically. I have been able to make some extreme modifications to my F3 because they designed many of the parts to be reversible, or use common bolt spacing. The only bad thing is the weird programming, made necessary because Rnet did not allow the complicared coordinated actuator motions for their VS. Fingers are crossed hoping this change is a net positive.

I participated in a customer feedback session at Permobil factory while this was under development. The feedback I provided was that some icons were too small to read, and the base drive profile was very good and responsive on straights but slowed down way too much on turns. I havent driven one since so cannot comment on the default drive profile, but it does appear they enlarged the icons from what I saw. They were also demoing 3rd party accessories like Luci, cameras, and scooterlike attendant controls. Hindsight, probably verifying compatibiliy. One interesting thing they asked about the camera was if I would prefer the camera image on a separate screen or the joystick screen. I would prefer the image on an OMNI screen if I had one, but seperate screen if I had a CJSM. They wanted to know about any perceived actuator and motor noise or the slightest vibration. I probably just violated an NDA, so we'll see how that goes.

[Burgerman]

The only bad thing is the weird programming, made necessary because Rnet did not allow the complicared coordinated actuator motions for their VS

I doubt that. The advanced CxSM module allows toal mapping of 8 channels with feedback sensors etc and is all R-Net. It can do exactly what the prmobil stuff does natively.

Why does permobil feel the need to make a permobil version of the switches? The (cut down smaller darker screen and buttons missing) CJSM2, use their own frankly worse gyro (their stability system, with non standard programming) etc etc? Its all about cheap to manufacture their own systems and long term it means you are tied to the for everything.

If we get full access, we probably lose the ability to win lawsuits against the OEM for injuries related to changes we make. I'm ok with that. Routing programming only through the OEM with SIM cards is probably a way for them to track the changes each user makes, so that they can disclaim liability, or prohibit the change if they feel it is unsafe. I don't like that because I like to experiment and find the edges of what is safe for myself. But it could be a good thing for many. If I could sign a waiver to get full access, I would be all over that.

You wont get full access!
As for a waiver, and getting full access, I already have full access just by using R-Net components and OEM software. At least as full as I would ever need. I think that goes for almost everyone.
I could dump all the electronics from a permobil stander. And refit with much simplified pure R-Net and just 3 modules and program it fully with its existing actuators to do everything it does now. Inc memory positions. timers, speeds of actuators etc. Only I wouldnt need a explosion of modules and enough plugs and cables to wire a house.

[DSmidgit]

Permobil always had their own weird actuator system. According to them this was because of the vertical stand chairs. Now they just intergrated it all into 1 module. I feel it has just to do with $$$$$. Permobil alway was, and still is, very expensive.

[Burgerman]

They seem to do a lot of non standard things, to make themselves and their stuff unique and impossible to deal with easily. Its all a big job creation scheme. You are forced to use them, their services and their parts. Generic r-net parts are easier to source and to program etc. Which means they would $lose $out.