Is there a way to copy settings from old chair to new one?

[loky]

I recently had the opportunity to ride Permobil and Quantum on factory settings and both of these chairs behaved, to put it mildly, like heavy boats. The Quantum guy changed a few settings for me (using the phone app via bt) and the results were optimistic, but of course far from ideal - there was too little time to digg dipper. I will see him again in a while and I wi have the opportunity to test another chair, but mainly it's about making sure I can set it up the way I like. The main problem is that everything has to be done within a certain time (2-3 hours), because the guy lives on the other side of the country and rarely comes to my area.

I have been using the Quantum Q6000 for over 10 years and I would probably keep using it because I like it, but for various reasons I have to replace it. I have a PG Drives Remote Plus controller on it (D49670/03). My chair reacts much faster than the ones I mentioned at the beginning, turns faster, stops without delay, etc. - you know what I'm talking about. I know that many of you have used PG electronics in the past and programmed your chairs in your own way. It must have been simpler then...

Maybe someone remembers what the factory settings were then and how they differed from those in modern chairs? Maybe thanks to this I would waste less time the next time I see the guy from Quantum and I will have more time for small corrections and to ride the chair.

I know this guy almost certainly only has partial access and then none of this makes much sense.

[Burgerman]

You said it. Last sentence.

All the important settings that actually allow you to tweak the chair to get properly linear real time control are behind walls that limit what is possible without OEM access. This is even worse on modern permobils as the complete algo that steers their chairs is different and located in a different place on the menue too. All the normal speed and turn settings are set to some crazy values and you are not meant to change them. Those are then fed to their own gyro. Which uses the new set of setting that are in the gyro section for control. And again the gyro prevents you ever getting proper control anyway.

It WOULD be possible on the quantum if you could get access to the OEM level programmer but thats kept under lock and key.

This is the very reason that I wouldnt even look at any chair that I couldnt get access to an OEM level programmer for. So since almost every system is now locked down, that means only chairs that use pure R-Net components. So in the US thats extremely limiting. Basically Ami, sunrise (quickie) and magic mobility.

So you are fighting a battle. As for copying some settings you can plug n a programmer and save the settings file to a PC. And write that to your other chair. And then it WOULD drive like the old chair. If it were not for things such as different seating, and different motor load compensation settings that would also be transfered and those may need to be different between chairs.

[loky]

Thanks, that's actually what I expected

Leaving aside the numbers - what could you say about the factory settings in old chairs in relation to new ones? I also encourage others to comment on this.

I also have this interesting fact - none of the settings that my Quantum guy had access to had any impact on the chair's reactions when the seat is raised to 'ilevel'. The chair doesn't stop moving literally 2 seconds after it supposed to

[Burgerman]

Dont know.. There wont be much difference. EVERY chair regardless of brand I tested at shows, people I know, the spinal injuries unit, etc are all basically undrivable. And all very similar.

The continuing to move and turn long after you release the joystick is called turn deceleration. And at low speeds its called MINIMUM turn deceleration.
This must be set to 100% to remove all the delays. More below.

Generally the motor compensation is set for "safety" around 10% too low on every chair I tested. Real acccurate response without any jerkiness can be improved by increasing this a little and testing. So this also needs to be tweaked once you also removed the "turn acceleration" "turn deceleration" and minimum turn acceleration" and "minimum turn deceleration" delays. By setting each to 100. And then in some systems it SAYS 100 in a dealers programmer when its really much less (e.g dynamic). Because of the OEM settings limiting the actual rates allowed and this needs setting in the turn accel scalar.

In R-Net it simply doesent allow these to be set in most cases unless you remove the walls. Depends on the manufacturers default OEM settings. Turn acc for e.g is limited to 70 max in sunrise chairs unless you first remove the "walls" which needs OEM access.

Only then will any chair steer properly. If its too "sensitive" then configure torque (super slow speed response) and reduce "minimum turn speed" and "turn speed". Leave all turn accel and decel settings at 100.

Then all chairs will steer properly and in a linear proportional fashion with easy to drive intuitive natural response.They will all feel MASSIVELY better and all feel exactly the same to drive. The trouble is that as of now this means R-Net only systems and not front drive, and not permobil. So a very restrictive list.

So pure R-Net control system is my starting point of essentials before even considering a chair. For the reasons above. Its the only modern system that still allows us to make it usable.

[Burgerman]

Can you make it "better" than it is? With the dealer level tools?
That depends on the base programming, any walls that are set up, and a few other things. Including if the guy has a clue or will actually do what you ask. Most Dont. And wont and are super cautious. So a firm maybe...
I think the curtiss instrument dealer one is better than some dealer versions (qlogic 1 2 or 3) and will allow some sensible adjustments if not everything you really need..

[Fusiongoat]

The Permobil M3 doesn't have a gyro by default. It's called ESP and you have to order it separately. Of course, your DME company would prefer that you buy it, but who cares? The problem with the M3 is that the suspension isn't very good and the motors are 2 pole. You should consider this chair instead:
https://amylior.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... 06_R05.pdf
You shouldn't have any problem programming the driving functions on a Permobil M3 without ESP but you might not be able to program the seating functions like you could on a Sunrise chair or the Amy chair I linked to. As long as you get the 120A R-net on the Amy M3 the chair should be both good and programmable. Finally, while I don't know for a fact, I would speculate that your dealer will make a smaller profit if you get an Amy Systems chair, so they aren't exactly incentivized to sell it to you.

[Burgerman]

Yes thats true. I forget that perm do mid drives as everyone seems to be all F3 or F5 now.

[loky]

Burgerman, thank you for your advices. I will make a plan on which settings changes to start with.
In the PDF price list I got for Edge 3 and Stretto, in the 'joystick' category there is 'R-net' - price + $200. I don't know exactly what kind of joystick and electronics it is, but I was strongly advised not to chose it Of course, this doesn't change anything.

[Burgerman]

Also order the programmer from the order form for r-net. If they are paying. Its dealer but will work with the OEM software with a little workaround...

[slomobile]

For the Quantum, driving poorly when I-level is detected, perhaps this will help diagnosing the trouble.
https://totallynormalshop.com/product/q ... ass-cable/

[loky]

For the Quantum, driving poorly when I-level is detected, perhaps this will help diagnosing the trouble.
https://totallynormalshop.com/product/q ... ass-cable/

Thanks

[ex-Gooserider]

I don't know, as I've never played w/ one, but I suspect the slow deceleration when the seat is up may well be for safety reasons... (even more than the usual horrible stuff...) As has been pointed out many times, we are basically riding around on top heavy powered bar-stools....

Raising the seat is going to increase that instability because it raises the COG that much more... So there becomes a question of how fast you can stop without doing a face-plant because the bottom stopped and the top didn't...

The manufacturer probably overdid the deceleration rate, but it definitely seems to me like you wouldn't want to be stopping as fast when the seat is up as you could when it's down...

(I'd also wonder about the slowdown w/ a hard back-stick vs. just letting it go...)

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

When it is raised it triggers one of the many inhibits. The inhibit sets all speeds and turn rates to "slow". The "slow" setting also usually means that all the following are set to low aceleration rates.

E.G
-forward and reverse speed, and MINIMUM speeds.
-forward and reverse accelerations, and decelerations. AND MORE IMPORTANTLY minimum forward acceleration and deceleration. These must be set to the same as forward accel/decel.
-turn speed, and MINIMUM turn speeds.
-the most important one - Turn Acceleration, minimum turn acceleration, turn deceleration and minimum turn deceleration. Set these to 100.

All of these will ensure that yu both overcontrol and then wait a week for the input to "go away" if you dont set them high. Especially the minimum and the deceleration ones.

If you do the above, it will only move in close to real time. And STOP MOVING the instant its told. Even when still inhibited. You may need OEM access to do all of this. Depends on the manufacturers OEM settings and walls used. And the specific manufacturer of the control system.