Programing issue

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Programing issue

Postby Burgerman » 07 Feb 2024, 20:40

Cainey wrote:Hi John, some years back you programmed a chair for my Dad Joey, and i have been useing it since he died.I have brought a near new Sunrise Q700r and the settings are so bad i can hardly use it, as it is so slow to respond the steering when you move the joystick, it has a delay so bad then when is starts to go after about 10 seconds it is so fast and when you remove your hand it keeps going for a time before the brake works.

John have you any settings that you could send me to reset this chair to your spec please. Thank you Cainey


Burgerman: I just moved this here from the PM section. So others can benefit.

Why? This is the same problem EVERY chair has. Every brand, every model, every price, every supplier that has ever been supplied since all the modern computerised programmable systems were invented. So at least 2 decades... And I have fixed this for so many people over the last 20 years that I lost count. So since most people think that they are SUPPOSED to be like that, have no knuckles left, and damaged doorways etc. And are ignorant of how good they can be I thought it best to do this on here rather than in private if you dont mind?
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Burgerman » 07 Feb 2024, 20:44

OK.
Can you tell me the EXACT spec. So motors for e.g, 2 or 4 pole? (unless its a motobility supplied one it will be 4 pole) 4 6 or 8mph? Power module 120?
And any seating options?
Does it have a gyro? If so then we need to disable that in rograming too. As I never managed to get any chair with one, to steer properly.
And do you have a programmer?
Is it OEM (B) or Dealer (A) version?

It should be relatively easy, depending what programmer you have. And if you can email me a copy of YOUR settings file?
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Burgerman » 07 Feb 2024, 21:23

Quite apart from the stupid programming issues that make all chairs unsteerable and dangerous as you describe, the Q700 R in common with many others have other CG related issues.

These are several ADDTIONAL problems with the Q700R chair beyond just programming:
1. The front casters are very close together. Designed by someone in the marketing department. Along with the "boat" swinging axle rear suspension. It means that even with an (essential) centre mount footrest you cannot move the seating system far enough back without a massive fight as the rear edge of he footrest cannot fit back slightly between the wheels as required. Why is that important? Because as stock, most of the users mass (your weight) sits hanging over the front end. This heavily loads up the front casters. So the chair doesent want to turn. When enough stick (and time with stock programming) is applied it eventually makes enough torque and "unsticks" the casters at some point, and then shoots left or right suddenly and not under control. As you foundout. It also rucks up carpets due to the huge amount of rear wheel torque required and on slippery or loose ground makes the rear wheels slip instead of you actually turning. Especially on uneven ground. Frankly its rediculous. This isnt the only chair configured this way. Most rear drive chairs are. But it makes the steering situation and proper control even worse! So you MUST try and mitigate this by fitting the same small diameter front tyres (like rollers) that I did, and removing the front fender/mud guards. This allows a centre plate to come back at least some of the way. It isnt a total fix but it is a massive improvement. It allows the seat/footrest to go back around 3 inches or more depending on where it is right now. Bin the curb climber its in the way.

2. Gyro. Many Q700 chairs have one as stock. Its not actually possible to make a chair steer in fully accurate linear controlled fashion. Now on the front drive version, its needed. But those cannot ever be made to steer properly whatever you do so it is what it is. On a mid, drive its way better without. On a rear drive its completely rediculous unless you are using alternate non proportional controls. But fixing this is simple. Just turn it off i programming at the same time as we set all the turn settings properly so the damned thing turn WHEN its told. By the exact amount that its told. And stops turning the instant you tell it to! Thats easy. Remove a few walls, set a few parameters and it will steer like your dads chair did. And what a relief that is!

I will elaborate later. I need your settings file. And I need to know you have normal hands, and correct joystick technique. Ie, hold(cup) the joystick side, use finger and thumb for control. You may need to move and adjust the joystick position to be able to do that.
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Cainey » 07 Feb 2024, 23:17

Hi John, the chair is a Q700r 8 MPH Built with Rise and Tilt. I need to find someone to help me and help change the settings as no one wants to know in my area of Norfolk.
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Re: Programing issue

Postby biscuit » 08 Feb 2024, 10:52

Is the controller r-net or VR2, Cainey?
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Cainey » 08 Feb 2024, 11:45

biscuit wrote:Is the controller r-net or VR2, Cainey?

Hi , it is r-net
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Burgerman » 08 Feb 2024, 13:19

You need to answer more the questions!
120A power module and 4 pole 8mph motors, right?
ONLY tilt/lift?
Gyro?
Centre mount footrest, CG?

OK.
Can you tell me the EXACT spec. So motors for e.g, 2 or 4 pole? (unless its a motobility supplied one it will be 4 pole) 4 6 or 8mph? Power module 120?
And any seating options?
Does it have a gyro? If so then we need to disable that in rograming too. As I never managed to get any chair with one, to steer properly.
And do you have a programmer?
Is it OEM (B) or Dealer (A) version?

It should be relatively easy, depending what programmer you have. And if you can email me a copy of YOUR settings file?


Or upload it here.
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Cainey » 08 Feb 2024, 15:54

John, i dont have any type of Programmer or anything to test anything with and i have never used anything as i dont have a clue how to do it.
8 mph 4 pole
gyro
no centre footrest, had electric legs but i took them off as they was to heavy over castors, and replaced with lightweight standard legs to enable to move the seat and base back to alter the balance of the chair. Other than that i know nothing else about the chair, all i need is for someone to reprogram the chair so i can use it and i will pay anyone cash to do it and i can deliver to them.

CAN ANYONE ON THIS FORUM REPROGRAM THIS CHAIR FOR ME . CASH WAITING :thumbup:
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Burgerman » 08 Feb 2024, 16:40

Well that makes it awkward.
You really need a programmer. Its possible to get it ball park (better) but will never be right in one single guesswork attempt. Takes me weeks to fine tune mine to suit me.

Where are you?
Even if you find an "expert" I doubt that they will have a damned clue. Its 1 in a 1000 that seems to get it. And most just fudge a few settings and run.

One option. Post me your power module... Then I can program it here. And post it back. But then if its wrong we are in a world of pain. Also, if you are using swing away legrests its probable that its still way too nose heavy. 8 mph motors do not have adequate torque in that situation. So they dont move when they should turn in place reliably, then they suddenly jump... You must get the seat back, needs smaller casters, mudguards gone, centre mount footrest to achieve.

See: https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... 33#p171026
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Cainey » 08 Feb 2024, 19:14

John, i will try to get some person to help get the module off the chair and post to you as when you did Dads chair it was perfect. Perhaps you could PM Details of address and what money you need. Thank you.

ps. might be about a week to get someone to help get it off, but i will tell you when i get it posted to you. :thumbup:
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Burgerman » 08 Feb 2024, 20:15

Dont need any money. Thats not what I am about.

I might need the shipping though...

The issue is that if you get it back and its non operative, or left is right, or you cant get on with it then what?

I can only try!

Where are you? Maybe someone like steve or rover on here are close? I am in Grimsby, near hull. The end of the world!

PM me for my address.
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Cainey » 09 Feb 2024, 11:12

John , i am in DOWNHAM MARKET, NORFOLK. Kings Lynn is the main town, but i can deliver it no problem. I will pay for the reprogram, i dont expect it to be done for free.
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Burgerman » 09 Feb 2024, 12:22

Steve has an OEM programer and is also near kings lynn...

So that may be easier?

https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/ ... ile&u=1011
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Re: Programing issue

Postby Cainey » 09 Feb 2024, 13:17

Ok John, i will try to contact him. :thumbup:
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Re: Programing issue

Postby steves1977uk » 09 Feb 2024, 20:54

Downham Market is about 39 miles from me. Cainey, are you able to travel with your chair to my home? Melissa (my PA) prefers me to do programming at home since it's easier rather than trying to do it on a laptop in a public place.

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Re: Programing issue

Postby Cainey » 10 Feb 2024, 15:44

PM you Steve. Cain. :thumbup:
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Re: Programing issue

Postby steves1977uk » 10 Feb 2024, 16:39

PM received! :thumbup: Going to post your message and my reply here so BM can advise...

Cainey wrote:Hi Steve, Burgerman sorted my dads chair to how he sets up his own chairs, and i have been using dads old f55 since he has died, but i thought i would buy a newer chair, i have a 2022 Q700r 8mph but it is so bad i cant use it. I can get it over to you as i have a friend who would bring it it you, can you give me your contact details etc and when you want the chair, I will pay you cash for fixing the settings as i dont want it done for nothing. How long will you need the chair ?? Thanks Cain


steves1977uk wrote:Hi Cainey,

Let me speak to my PA first as she's the one who has to connect the R-net dongle for me. I can load John's settings onto your Q700r, but ask him if they would suit your chairs setup, e.g. Does it have tilt and recline, and also a seat lift? I'm asking because when you're not in the normal seating position (raised/tilted/reclined), the chair goes into turtle mode. This can be programmed out if you wished so.

Kind regards,

Steve


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Re: Programing issue

Postby Burgerman » 10 Feb 2024, 17:21

No.
Save a copy of his settings. Different seating options, different motors etc. Even different switch it seating controls. My profile is very different.

First set the gyro to off across the board on every profile if its got one. (It makes the chair snatchy and horrid). And means you must set turn acceleration too low. Half the problem... Its not possible to get good response and linearity and feel with a gyro enabled.

Set turn accel, + min turn accel to 100.
Set turn decel, + min turn decel to 100.
You may need to change the "walls" set up to allow this in the engineering section.

Then set the turn speeds to whatever suits him. Min turn and max turn speeds.
Set all settings, to this below: (as a steady starting point)
Then test.
You MAY need to add 5mOhm max, to the motor load compensation lastly - then test again and see if he prefers it. Esp if it is as nose heavy as I expect.

You only really need 1 profile. The 2nd one shown here.
Set the other profiles to off. One profile will do everything from super slow to full speed in good control.
Then it should do exactly as its told.
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Re: Programing issue

Postby steves1977uk » 10 Feb 2024, 18:30

Cainey said it would be his friend bringing his chair to me, so he wouldn't be able to test drive it here to see if the new settings suits him. I can do the programming, no prob!, but it's difficult to guess what settings would suit him. I'll backup the settings from the PM first, then make the changes you suggested BM. :thumbup:

I've also got to re-program Miss Biscuit's chair as she's getting a Salsa M which came with stock programming. czy But she will be coming to my home with it so she can test the settings which suits her. :thumbup:

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Re: Programing issue

Postby Burgerman » 10 Feb 2024, 18:32

Use the same ones I show here on the 6mph salsa.


If its 4 pole also definitely increase compensation by 5 if rear drive. If its 2 pole, no idea I gave up smoking those years ago!
The settings aboveare my "standard" starting point for rear drive r-net powerchairs. It results in a very smooth controllable chair. It might need some fine tuning to suit those that dont hold the joystick properly. Which is most...

Control problems come from programming, AND the following..
Gyros...
Nose heavy rear drive chairs (thats all of them! So modify, centre footrest etc)
Weak batteries
Weak motors (2 pole)
CG too far forwards...
Weak controller (needs 100 plus A)
Fast motors (8mph)
They *must* have the hand cupping the joystick side, and thumb and forefinger controlleing the joystick to stand any real chance of proper control. Most joysticks are not in the right place to even do this. Causing big issues to start with. Modify!

Its always some combination of these things above.
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Re: Programing issue

Postby biscuit » 10 Feb 2024, 19:59

Salsa M2 Mini. Different beast altogether, though from Sunrise. Very basic chair, suits me.

I'd have to test, I'm still tweaking my current chair's settings some years later.
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