New wheelchair...

[Burgerman]

Dietz?

I just had a sunrise rep, and a NHS Wheelchair services rep here for 2 hours.

I explained why I needed what I need. And why whatever chairs they were interested in supplying were not suitable in very graphic detail. Now they are looking at a 120A, 4 Pole, rear drive, Dietz Sango with lift, tilt, recline, centre power footrest, etc. I think that they brought a sunrise rep with them for support! ut because HE understood exactly what I was sayng, and agreed with it all then it sort of leaves them with nowhere else to go. I explained that only the Magic V4 rear drive with 120A power module as option and the Dietz Sango Advanced fitted the bill... I also explained exactly what was wrong with the sunrise Q chairs. They didnt want to hear it but sort of agreed once I explained in detail. It was very hard work.

So you CAN get what you want if you argue your case properly. At least I hope so, as I now have to wait to find out.

[martin007]

So you CAN get what you want if you argue your case properly.

Some people don't want to listen to other people's arguments.
There are too many of those people.
Other people don't know how to process other people's arguments.
Also there are too many of those people.

[Burgerman]

It all depends on how you structure your arguments.

First of all I took charge. They wanted to start by asking me a lot of question. I didnt allow that. I began with a list of my clinical needs. And explained why at each point whay that mattered and exactly what that meant in the choice of wheelchair specs.

Then I showed them that all of my 5 existing chairs, going back 25 years. And explained exactly why they all had 100 or 120A power modules, and a 150A one on the BM3 chair. I also explained why non of their chairs steered properly, and why all of mine used 4 pole motors. And showed them why every one had the centre footplate, and seat relocated back some. And that took about an hour to explain how hat all worked together. Then I explained exactly why the q500r chair wouldnt work or allow this. Casters too close together. And then showed them that there were exactly 2 rear drive chairs that would make good candidates. The magic V4 rer drive. And the Dietz. And then explained in detail exactly why I didnt want linx controls or prides control systems. For programming reasons. Next I explained exactly why I needed lift, tilt, recline, and power centre footrest. And a roho quadra cushion. And a canvas tension adjustable back with headrest. And no push handles or any other scaffolding sticking out the rear.

Then I let them ask questions. There were not many. They seemed to take it all in, althouh seemed a bit bewildered. Well the rep didnt, and he agreed with me.

Then I showed them a few lithium batteries, and tubeless fa tyres etc and explained why those were way better.

Then they left to have some discussion. Lets see.

[Raro]

Well, in the backrest part, I think that due to force, the electric actuator will have to be carried, let's see what measurement of the seat to the floor is left with all the electric options to the floor.

[Burgerman]

Dont understand.

[martin007]

I think Raro is confused in conversation...

[Raro]

I understood that maybe you buy another chair?

[Burgerman]

No. I was assesssed by the UK NHS Wheelchair Services as its their job in the UK to supply wheelchairs. They are generally useless. But we will see what happens!

[Burgerman]

Question for rover especially and anyone else that may know!

Does the Dietz Sango Advanced chair allow easy seat relocation, centre power footrest option, 120A r-net, 4 pole motors, and lift, tilt, recline, and a canvas tension adjustable back and headrest?

Basically the spec I would want. I think it can be done. If so then that may be my next wheelchair services chair.

The sunrise rep that came to my house with the WCS assessor woman, as I think she was a little scared. For support. I already told them not to turn up with someone that knows nothing like the typical "assessement" OT. The rep looked at the destroyed BM1 (and BM2) with bent casters, bent rear swing arms and angled rear wheels wih totally bald tyres (all 4) and said what happened to that? And I told him thats what happens with heavy lead bricks when you jump curbs etc. His comment to the OT assessor was "he will destroy the Q500". This was after I already complained about its flimsy seating system and told him that the old Salsa was a much better stronger chair and seating system. At least with the removable single post arms. And that it was the exact same 185KG.

So theres that!

[iainsherriff]

have you stopped using a PWB payment ?

[Burgerman]

I havent. But they changed the rules. So they want me to have a voucher... Buy a chair from their "list" etc. That wont work for me. So instead of fighting them (as I normally do) I decided it would be fun for me to let them assess me, (that went well! ) and supply a chair instead to see what happens.

Since everyone says that you cant get a decent chair that way. So well I am finding out! I have demonstrated what works, what wont, what my clinical needs and preferences are and why that is the case yesterday. Now I will see what they do, say or offer. I think the fact that I already have 3 chairs in the kitchen and 2 in my bedroom, and one in the garage and more brand new spares than the manufacturers, had them a little bewildered too. As I told them I was expecting a budget and then I could rebuild an old chair, maintain the rest, and keep everything fully "as new", since demonstrably this ends up by far the best solution for me. I have a Salsa chair here that is ABSOLUTELY as new, been using that for 7.5 years. Because I rebuild better than new periodically. Enen paint, bolts, motors, loom, upholstery, tyres, bearings etc. I also have an almost unused 7 mile old Q700R in the kitchen, etc.

The rest are in need of an AS NEW rebuild. What I dont really need is more chairs! But thats the way they will have to go if they will not give me a free budget. Then I will sell the 700R and use the money for all the rest.

Hence Dietz...

[foghornleghorn]

//snipped//

So you CAN get what you want if you argue your case properly. At least I hope so, as I now have to wait to find out.

You've got nothing at all until you are actually sat in it.

Dealing with the wheelchair service is the slowest process ever and I don't think you will have helped yourself by showing your fleet of unused chairs. In their mind you will now be a low priority as whatever needs you have are already covered.

[martin007]

//snipped//

So you CAN get what you want if you argue your case properly. At least I hope so, as I now have to wait to find out.

You've got nothing at all until you are actually sat in it.

Dealing with the wheelchair service is the slowest process ever and I don't think you will have helped yourself by showing your fleet of unused chairs. In their mind you will now be a low priority as whatever needs you have are already covered.

I wouldn't have shown that collection of powerchairs...

[Dan]

What I dont really need is more chairs! But thats the way they will have to go if they will not give me a free budget.

There is a chance they might not offer you any chair.
The way WS work here is that they offer chairs from a list, thats about it. I had a long argument just to get about 70% of what I wanted. Then when the chair arrived they had forgot to put the riser function on it. They have had it back for over a month trying to 'fix' it, its going to be at least another month.
They don't do four pole motors or the 120amp controller. They tried reall hard to fob me off with a Invacare TDX SP2.
Without a backup chair I would be lying in bed. I have no words to explain just how fucking useless WS are. When I was assessed there were three OT's there and a sunrise medical sales person.
BTW about 50% of the total WS budget gets spent on their wages.

[martin007]

BTW about 50% of the total WS budget gets spent on their wages.

It is similar in other countries.
They say the welfare state is the best.
They're really just defending their salary...
And if I talk, there's even some idiot who says to shut the fuck up.
On one occasion they came to tell me that I had to thank them because I had a plate of food.

[Burgerman]

Thats just the Wheelchair services department. Theres at least 20 layers of beurocrats on big money thinking up ever more ways to add more layers of people to make their own jobs easier. Thats where most of the NHS money is wasted. Different ways to push the responsibility to someone else. Socialism at its finest. Theres little of that helicopter money left by the time it reaches the ones that actually treat people or supply equipment. So their jobs turn into ways to not supply what you need but to make their own lives easier over time and you the one needing the equipment or treatment are last in the que.

[Luciett]

Would love as a reference how you explained that those chairs they were supplying weren't suitable in every folical of graphic detail. About the battery for longer lasting and perhaps quicker charging, the 120A power module which I'm still figuring out, the 4 pole motor on how it's superior
to the 2, the lift, tilt, recline, and centre power footrest, as well as being rear drive because you needed both indoor and outdoor usage.

I ask because I also want to be a pain to my private insurance getting the best available from what I can get in the USA.

[ex-Gooserider]

The big pain point in the US is the near complete lack of RWD chair options.... None of the Dietz or Sunrise models except the Magic Mobility are available... AFAIK the only other choices are a Pride or Invacare w/ crappy control systems...

ex-Gooserider

[Burgerman]

Its not that the very same manufacturers - often based in the US - dont make/have rear drive options as we see in other countries. But that for some reason that nobody seems able to answer they do not want them in the USA. Some companies such as Otto Bock, or Dietz are not made in the US. But then that applies to permobil and Majoc mobility, and others and they are selling in the US. Sunrise for e.g have 7 different chairs that are rear drive, and that ignores the older ones like the F55, Groove, Salsa, Jive, and the pumas, handicare etc. Even the US based invacare company had 3 more rear drive chair generations that never saw the US. They are making the things anyway so why?

[martin007]

I think it's very simple.
Economic interests limit the sale of these products in the United States.

[Burgerman]

I disagree. It canot be that because everywhere else in the world they are sold. And popular. At least as many high end rehab chairs I see here are rear drive models.

Anyway since theres no good option available in the US for a decade how would they know?

Look a the number of people on here looking for one from the US/Canada.

[Burgerman]

Would love as a reference how you explained that those chairs they were supplying weren't suitable in every folical of graphic detail. About the battery for longer lasting and perhaps quicker charging, the 120A power module which I'm still figuring out, the 4 pole motor on how it's superior
to the 2, the lift, tilt, recline, and centre power footrest, as well as being rear drive because you needed both indoor and outdoor usage.

I ask because I also want to be a pain to my private insurance getting the best available from what I can get in the USA.

I could. It would be a 20 page essay though.
The real issue is that everything is interelated. So explaining one thing involves everything else! Basically you would need to understand the physics, and be able to explain all that and how it all intereacts to someone with n clue, and only a few minutes to spare.
One of the things I dis was refuse the first couple of appointments because I indsisted that they had a full afternoon to spare, as I know it would take that lont to educate them enough, and to bring someone that ACTUALLY UNDERSTOOD powerchairs and not some OT/PHYSIO that only knew about seating and what the brochure says... Mine was their best "expert" (who still hadnt a clue) so she brought the sunrise commertial rep with her. That already took months to organise. Then when they arrived I showed them what I already had, and WHY I had them configured in the way they were in detail. They were only here 2 hours and that wasnt enough. So we will see where this goes!

[martin007]

I disagree. It canot be that because everywhere else in the world they are sold. And popular. At least as many high end rehab chairs I see here are rear drive models.

Anyway since theres no good option available in the US for a decade how would they know?

Look a the number of people on here looking for one from the US/Canada.

The U.S. healthcare system is peculiar.
In many other countries there is private healthcare, but different from that of the USA.
If the same company controls health insurance and the marketing of chairs can lead to what happens there.
I can't find any other logical explanation.
Powerchair users are hostages of health insurance.

[Burgerman]

Its due to massive levels of legislation, cronyism, and it causes no free market in medical care or insurance etc unlike say beds, cars, fridges, laptops, food, houses, etc. Similar issues here. NHS is a socialist money and time wasting monster that has 10 year waiting lists and millions of cheifs on big money and not enough indians. And the indians they do have all hang around in gangs holding hands and planning meetings, panels, training, cake, new cars, holidays, and anything but actually doing any work. Why? Different reasons to the US, but because they get helicopter money, and you are not the paying customer directly. The helicopter comes regardless and it doesent care if you get your operation, prescription, or wheelchair. So mostly that helicopter money ends up wasted om ever more layers of people making the layer above lives easier.

[martin007]

Its due to massive levels of legislation, cronyism, and it causes no free market in medical care or insurance etc unlike say beds, cars, fridges, laptops, food, houses, etc.

That's what I'm trying to say.
Excessive legislation motivated by the economic interests of some...

[Burgerman]

It boils down to no free market. So you are not waving the money at them. Why would they care about your wishes?

[martin007]

I think the healthcare system is different in Canada.
However (for the purposes of powerchair market) Canada is a U.S. province.
The lack of a free market in the USA affects Canada.

[ballkeeper]

3 years now still waiting for the ws to come for a vist


had to buy me own for now an old 2010 otto boc b400

[Burgerman]

Thats socialist healthcare for you! Marvelous int it!

[ballkeeper]

when we rang to find out more they said its up to 4 year s waiting list. i couldnt think anything nice to say so i didnt say anythink put the phone down