NHS WS told me they would take away their chair. Programming

[Dan]

So I got a Quickie Q500M from my local Wheelchair Services, its not quite what I wanted but its OK for indoors. They did forget to install a seat raiser like we had agreed. So they arranged to have it taken back and changed.

In the time that I had it I obviously changed the programming, mostly turn acceleration/deceleration, turning speed. Just some basics.
When they returned the chair they were not happy campers. They told me in no uncertain terms that if I changed the programming again that they would take their chair back! They said the chair was unsafe, I told them that I had done thousands of miles in a power and never had an accident or hit anyone. How many miles have you done? They had not done any.
I think it took them a month to change to programming back. I now have a chair that steers like an oil tanker.

[Dan]

Q500m original settings.

[Burgerman]

Stock settings are DANGEROUS.
Setting turn acceleration etc to 100 makes it behave in a controllable linear predictable way. So that you never need think about it.

They are idiots.

What can I say.

Oh yes. THEY ARE IDIOTS. Did I mention that they are idiots?

Oh..
When the sunsise commercial rep was here with the WCS boss, I explained all that and told them in no uncertain terms hat it would be reprogrammed he same way all my chairs are or that it would be unusable. They didnt care. Why would they? Thats what THEY are supposed to do for you. They do not know how.

[steves1977uk]

Dan, I would suggest they try driving a stock setup powerchair VS a properly programmed one. They'd soon change their minds.

If it ever had to go in for repair again, I'd set all the OEM settings to 1% just to pi$$ them off! Because they only have access to Dealer level software.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Just tell them to get stuffed.

How the hell can they take away your chair!
They told me the same when I said I was going to saw the footrest off the original F55. So I did it while they were there. They ran off in a panic and came back with a disclaimer for me to sign. Which I filed under B1N.

In the end they give up trying to lecture you. Or to control you. Because they figure out that you will just do exactly as you please.

As I already mentioned. They are IDIOTS.

Your stock settings are exactly those that I call "hovercraft" mode. It means its impossible to tell where the hell the chair will go and wont safely go through a door or up a narrow ramp. Or even stay on the footpath. Its DANGEROUS! And 99% of every chair in the public space is this way!

[LROBBINS]

Take 2 chairs, one with factory programming one with correct programming and do the following. On a reasonably flat smooth floor drive in a wide circle (at something other than a crawl, but needn't be fast), pick out some "landmark" off the circle and when you get there take your hand off the stick. Where is the chair pointing when it stops?

[Burgerman]

Me me me!! Sticks hand up...

On my properly programmed chair it points exactly where it should. Becaue it stos turning almost instantly as I release the stick. Accurate to better than 1 degree. And that applies regardless of speed or smooth floor or the exact opposite half way up a ramp.

On a stock chair with stock programming its really anyones guess but could be within about 30 degrees of where it should be. Or not even that good...


But thats ony the start of the full story and doesent demonstrate the real more serious issues.

This means that you have to "correct" its continued turn in your circle, caused by the turn deceleration being set too low. You cant help this natural response as the thing isnt going where it should. And you cant actually fix it because that correction command doesent happen until the original turn command you were holding to go in the circle has decayed away around 2 full seconds later. And now because of the turn acceleration also taking 2 seconds to fully kick in. And because of the lack of initial corrective response you have now naturally added a bigger opposite correction. When this eventually kicks in fully you now get a huge over correction because it did nothing initially and so you naturally increased the command. That you now also cant stop happening in the opposite direction for a couple of seconds. Which again you try in vain to correct... Rinse and repeat. The result is one delayed over correction after another and the inability to stop the thing from continuing to turn in every case.

The result is called pilot induced occilation caused by a control system that doesent respond in real time. And its dangerous. It results in chairs smashing into door frames at best. And falling off narrow ramps or high curbs or train platforms at worst. But generally its just highly frustrating to try and navigate even your own house accurately. All of the time. And people do not know that it can be so different. So they think (and are told and taught) that they "have to learn" the new chair. Eventually they sort of get used to it and drive around like my grandma barely knowing where it will go. With the occasional panic as they approach a door. When its a stupid programming problem and EVERY single chair is sent out this way? Why? Baffles me entirely.

[fishinjunky]

yea I would be pissed !

You could load the stock settings back in the chair only when they are going to work on the chair or have it in their possession for any reason. It is inconvenient though.

In the U.S
The "adaptive technology specialist" that I worked with to get my chair was absolutely awful he tried to tell me that Linx doesnt make a programmer until I showed him . I absolutely refused to listen to him . He actually retired after dealing with me Stupid insurance requires an ATP to evaluate you for only an hour an tell you what to get an if you dont agree with them they get really annoyed an think that only they can tell you whats best for you after spending just one hour with you But they know me now an dont mess with me because i dont take their bullshit

[Burgerman]

Ditto. And you HAVE to be this way or the alternative is to have zero control, stupid options such as stock hovercraft steering, or completely the wrong chair.

The ones that I feel sorry for are the normal easy going masses. They just accept what they are told or given. I dont suffer fools at all well. And they soon find this out. You end up with a reputation as a "problem". When the reality is that THEY are the problem. Through ignorance, lack of knowledge, etc.

[biscuit]

How did they know you had changed it??

[Burgerman]

Probably shocked that it went where it was instructed.
At least if he programmed it as i do. But we dont know how it was programmed. Doesent matter though. Its a personal thing thats why you CAN program them...

[Dan]

How did they know you had changed it??

After they had taken it back to change a part they also had to reprogram it. I guess that's when they noticed or when they moved it.
They had it for two months and never even charged the batteries once.

They seemed not to understand what turn acceleration/deceleration does. I said it would be like driving your car with a delay on the steering wheel. They still did not get it.

Im sure that there are some people out there that need the less reactive setting on their chair but thats not me. I do have really good joystick control and years of practice.

[Burgerman]

Having a delayed reaction to any conrol inputs. And worse, having a delayed response to REMOVING that input, causes the exact same over-control and inability to steer properly REGARDLESS of the users abilities. Its plain stupid, and dangerously so.

If a user wants a less sensitive chair because of control or hand coordination issues, then they need proper linear control even more than you or I do! It even harder for them.

The CORRECT way to make a chair less sensitive or less responsive is to reduce the turn speeds. And the minimum turn speeds. So the joystick response is very insensitive. NOT by introducing an exactly the same fast response but delayed for sometime after the command! That just causes huge and impossible to predict control response problems. For EVERYONE...

The fact that they are using turn acceleration and turn deceleration to try and make a chair less "sensitive" just shows that they have a massive fundamental lack of understanding of what it does. As I said its very hard to deal with these idiots.

[Burgerman]

Your car for e.g takes around 10 full seconds to 60mph. You need forward and reverse acceleration settings.
Your car steers left or right INSTANTLY. It does this at exactly the same time you turn the wheel. As it must! Its directly connected to the steeringrack and the wheels.

You are on a busy road at speed. If your car didnt turn when told, or by the amount you instructed it to, and then the turn rate increased over time without you moving the wheel, and so turn got tighter 2 seconds after you turned the wheel, you would crash. Especially as that now you are heading off the road in an ever steeper turn EVEN THOUGH YOU ALREADY TRIED TO CORRECT THE PATH! But the turn deceleration stops your correction working. So you now add yet more in a mad panic. And then it decides to actually turn into the traffic coming the opposite way and the delays will not let you prevent it!

How many cars do you think would be written off all along the route?
You simply couldnt safely drive that way. Yet all powerchairs are shipped this way! And 99% stay that way forever. Its a crazy world. Why?

[biscuit]

As wheelchairs substitute for walking I can't imagine the NHS as a corporation having much sympathy for wheelchair users wanting to ride at more than walking speed. Though they would no doubt overlook a case or two provided that no individual's attention is drawn to the fact that publicly provided equipment has been modified.

I doubt very much that the NHS would accept any suggestion that the equipment they provide needs modification for safety reasons. They would listen to some reasoned and well-presented arguments in favour of any theory, though, and ultimately accept their own professional advice to ignore those arguments.

Those with an appetite for conflict may test whether or not that applies in their experience.

[biscuit]

Dan, I'd say you best be political here, agree with everything they say and next time do not return an improved chair, just reload the original programme before they get their hands on the chair!

Else take it to court, it would be a public service to advocate the individual's right to correct the NHS. You would not be the first to sue the NHS for something other than malpractice, and people do succeed now and then. They do need shaking up.

My particular worry is
[quote]Its a personal thing thats why you CAN program them...[/quote]
the NHS would no doubt dearly love to rid itself of this difficulty.

Though seeing the complexity of this issue, I don't give much for your chances in court.

[Burgerman]

You dont need court.

Those with an appetite for conflict may test whether or not that applies in their experience.

biscuit
Top

Been there with 2 things in particular.
a) I assessed myself and got a 7 day demo for my original F55s that they refused, so I bought it myself and sent them the bill and a soliciters letter explaining their incompetance, and too slow timeline even for an assessement and they paid up, and just made me pay 200 towards it as it was 6mph/lights that rhey wouldn cover. And post assessed me same week...
b) While here, I sawed the swing away footrest mounts off, and started bolting my own DIY made centre footplate on. Thy made all sorts of noises and were running around in a panic and teling me I couldnt do that! They were wrong I just ignored them. They tried to get me to sign a disclaimer, carefully typed out and the same day! (so they can move about when they choose to do so.) I screwed it up and threw it away. They left and never bothered me withtheir opinions again. When I ignored their nonsense they were at a loss as to how to do anything about it. So since there was no bottle to remove a powerchair from a paraplegic, as they knew that it would look somewhat "difficult" when I took them to court, they decided to let me get on with it.
c) when they refused to supply me with a similar decent chair 3 years later I just told them carefully by letter that I would build a better chair myself. And for the next 6 or 7 years I did. Then decided to see if they had improved any... Many arguments and meetings later I figured out that they were stil useless time wasters. They hadnt so I threatened to sue them for being incompetant and inadequate. And wrote to the health minister. Who sent his personal secratary to my house and aranged a meeting of all the hospital adnministrators, direct payment bosses etc. And they decided that since I could do much better with the same money than the slow incapable WCS can, that they would fund me directly. And they did. Thats how the wheelchair direct payment scheme began. Personal budgets.

But they hated that idea obviouly so the WCS gradually destroyed it over the next 12 years or so and now its the voucher scheme under a new name...

So socialism destroyed a great system as it destroys everything. Now I am currently being assessed... Partly for a laugh. Well to be fair I assessed myself in front of the boss of WCS an OT and a Sunrise medical rep. And they just listened. No arguments. And I made a point of explaining that it better be a full afternoon assessement as I had much to teach/tell them. And they cancelled one apointment,ment and made a longer one. I explained why the sunrise reps chairs were now useless, and pointed them at a 4 pole 120A R-Net rear drive, power centre foortrest, 10 inc casters, tilt, lift, recline, etc. And thats what they are doing. I dont think they can stomach another argument with me because I do not take their usual ignorance or "system" lightly!

[Burgerman]

I might add that if I dont get a chance to examine the prescription/order form and if they order something that doesent suit what I want they will have 3 chances to remedy the situation.

Ditto with configuration.

After this if it doesent suit y needs and preferences I will eBay it without mentioning it to them and get something that does! You may not believe me but I assure you that I will and simply dont care about their "rules". Not my fault if they are incompetant. Lets see. SO FAR they seem to be doing OK albeit in a totally different rate of speed compared to the real world. I am going to call them again today..

[biscuit]

Clearly you are an intimidating opponent, Burgerman. I would point out that your ability is unique and most disabled people (and actually just most people) would not have the chutzpah to take on any national system.

However, I point out that despite the merits of a budget system over those of a voucher, the voucher system has been the winner during the last decade, be it because of socialism, incompetence, stupidity or sheer cussedness.

Further, I would say that you place a lot of faith in your own understanding of the NHS's workings which could in fact be put down to a happy coincidence between your intentions and theirs.

they were at a loss as to how to do anything about it. So since there was no bottle to remove a powerchair from a paraplegic, as they knew that it would look somewhat "difficult"

this is a proof of your ability to hold your own in a conflict, not proof of your absolute accuracy. The NHS thrives on bean counting and it is cheaper for them not to argue with you. But in general, they would be quite happy to devastate real opposition.

[biscuit]

I'm completely pessimistic about our public services and try as much as I can to keep them out of my life. Smart people make use of those services as much as they can. Fair enough, since this country aims to be civilised.

[Burgerman]

But in general, they would be quite happy to devastate real opposition.

If they tried to remove a wheelchair from someone that is paralised and cannot manage without they would be destroyed by any even half competant end user or soliciter. And they know it.

As such you can do exactly as you damned well need to do in order to help your own safe sane mobility. This is exactly where we were the last time that they couldnt provide what I could myself and I proved it. Courts run on logic, evidence. Not socialist made up "rules" by them. We have a right to do whatever we need as long as it braks no actual laws in order to make ourselves more independent. It would be impossible to argue the opposite in court.

Hell, even rapists, terrorists, street thugs, shop lifters and violent nutters are allowed by our courts to do all of that. And they seldom even prosecute them or at least sentence or fine them and they DO break real laws!

The socialist NHS make up their own "rules". To suit themselves, Internally. Those are not laws. You have no need to comply with any of them. However they DO have a few that they must comply with. Such as supplying you a wheelchair that suits your clinical and holistic needs in a reasonable time frame. If that includes easily demonstrable dangerous programming that could land you under a train or off a ramp etc then they could easiy be sued by you under the duty of care that they must comply with. And right now I could prove in any court with a bunch of engineers or real world tests that stock chairs programming is not safe!
You worry too much.

[biscuit]

You are correct. You make them do what they are paid to do. I am a bean counting type, not much good with technology and very meek. I do worry too much.
But I do play devil's advocate pretty well.

[Burgerman]

You and the vast majority. Should learn to stand up to inefficient ignorant woke lefty civil servants. They make up a lot of "rules" dont give a monkeys about actually helping you but are very good at organising things so that their lives are easy and well paid while the hold each thers hands and "work" from home. NON of this nonsense is law. So you have to learn to stand up to them/it.

When it comes to the local council, SOME of their nonsense is law. But most of its the same old stuff. They rely on their "system" or their "procedure" or their multiple layers or never being their responsibility. NON of this is your problem. They try to pretend that it is. Becaue most people cannot see the wood for the trees. And are so used to obeying and accepting this crap. I just dont. And ask rather diffficult questions. I am not popular with them. But I am usually pretty successful once I have made them actually do their job. There are one or two that genuinely do want to help. But they too run according to aa script until you explain that a) they dont have to. And b) that its their problem and you dont care about that. One or two can be converted! But when people work in a socialist run organisation like the council, NHS etc they are all kind of conditioned by the system. Most teachers are the same. You just end up with never ending beurocracy layers of paper pushing, pointless rules and a system that is so slow that it just doesent work. Try getting anything done in under a year with a court. Or WCS. Or your LA, or a doctor apointment without jumping through THEIR hoops. Always the same. But in the capitalist free market world I can buy a car, get a carpet fitted, a sofa delivered, a washing machine fitted all NEXT DAY and thats because you are the one paying! They want your money. They fight over you.

[slomobile]

That is one advantage of the otherwise highly flawed US insurance system. Once you have your chair, you actually own it. Except for the firmware apparently.
No one can take it back against your will. Unfortunately if they screw up the order and deliver the wrong thing, they might not take that back either.
On balance, since it seems they don't actually take your chair away, just threaten it, you still come out ahead. Able to order what you need, rather than having it dictated by stupid rules that no one understands.

I finished my clinical wheelchair evaluation recently. She said, for my condition, the prone chair I built is the absolute best thing for me. And if it ever breaks, there is no chance in hell I'll get anything better than a standard group 2, which she acknowledged is completely useless to me and would actually cause nerve damage if I used it. But that is the way the rules are interpreted here.

I asked about perhaps getting my type of seating studied as a potential option in the future. I have radiographic evidence of improved disc spacing now after using it for 1 year. And improved nerve conduction and EMG.
A complete non starter.
A medical professional acknowledges a better medical solution than any other (for my specific conditions) is right in front of her. Something that has never existed before AFAIK. Something she is very interested in on a personal level. She asked if I would consult for her. But officially, there is no way to get anything new evaluated.

[Burgerman]

No one can take it back against your will.

They may say that here. But theres no civil servant brave enough to try. Even if I were to let them in! The repercussions in the newspaper alone would scare them to death. What that is is the classic civil servant/traffic warden overeach mentality. They THINK they have power that they dont..