orthofab electric wheelchair made in quebec

[yeshelp]

HI everybody.

I messed up tonight. I made a short spark trying to take the volt mesure inside a redel connector that made lightning so I have to transfer batteries to a back up chair . My first backup chair is not ready to use since I am wainting for stainless steel bolt ... so I have to use this chaire that is my second back up.

There is something suspicious about this chair . I think it drains batteries when not in use like a lot. I would like to have you opinion about how severe or dangerous the drainage have to be to decide not to use it.

some info
So I received this chair , it was working inside the appartment I is used from people that seemed honest and has probably never even seen the rain. I could not do road test since the snow had begun. I was able to charge it . I left it turned off for 1 2 or3 nights and when I tried to turn it on it was not working. I called the manufacturer and they said it is a battery to be changed problem. So I took my gelmat batteries that was working well enough for couple kilometers in and the chair worked again. So ok I stored it in november . tonight I remember I have to charge the batteries from time to time . So I connected the charger that showed a red flashing light. I read on the net that it can mean batteries too low to be charged so I took the multimeter and tested the volt at the cable where the joystick plugs in and it showed 3.07 volt . I thought this does not make sens. So I unplugged the batteries and tested their voltage. left battery1.373 and right battery 2.57v. Woo I thought my voltmeter might be broke so i wanted to test it on my functionning wheelchair and wanting to save time i tried to take me mesure at the redel cable where there is so little space, I did not think about the short possibility.

1 correct me if I am wrong but in 3 month of not charging the batteries , the voltage could go down to 20 volt but never to 3.07 volt. It seems abnormally high discharge. The chair has a tilt on it but Is that supposed to drain voltage when off? I dont know. I dont have the expertise to open the chair and search for what could be the drainage. I have to evaluate if the drainage is so dramatic not to use the chair or how to deal with it .

2 Anyways, now I feel some pressure since I need to have a chair working rapidly. This orthofab was the ready to use (apart from the tires I will have to change during the night) until the doubt juste raised in my mind about this suspicious high drain when not in use.
The gelmat batteries were not new so it is a lost but not the end of the world. NOW my current GEL MK batteries are not old, I dont want to damage them. As it is going I will install them on the chair and hope I get and answer in the morning if I wake up about how to mesure the drain or deal with this possible high drain chair.
So my question how to use this chair without the risk of it draining the batteries so much.? I guess I could unplug it everytime it is not in use or being charged but that is not very convenient.

3 Would taking mesure of voltage in an evening and taking them after 12 hours of chair being off and not charging give me a good idea of the rate of drainage or how bad the drainage is because we could say it has broken 2 pairs of batteries already and I dont want to damage my good gel batteries.

Any other ideas welcome
thanks

[Burgerman]

1. You should charge every 2 weeks overnight. Even if you never move the chair. Dont forget!!! Because the battery will be damaged long term if not. Even if the battery does not seem to be discharged. They must be kept 100% charged in storage. Not 99%.

2. ALL LEAD BASED BATTERIES discharge INTERNALLY without any chair over time. They will discharge FASTER if they are also fitted in a chair. So if a battery is fitted and connected to a chair, even when turned off, it needs charging every 2 weeks to keep it 100% full..

3. If a battery is healthy, like your MK batteries? and it is DISCCONNECTED electrically from the chair, by removal, or use of the breaker, or by disconnecting a battery connection physically then charge it (them) with a 12V charger seperately every 2 to 3 months.

Is your chair actually faulty? Theres only one way to find out:
MEASURE the residual current when the chair is turned OFF. It should be less than a few mA.
You cannot tell just by charging and leaving it overnight... Because a battery voltage will always fall to around 12.8v AFTER CHARGING from an initial 13.2V or so anyway even without a chair and it is still 100% full.

Is there anything else connected to these batteries? Such as a USB power system or anything? I suspect you actually left the chair turned on. And it discharged the battery to a low figure. And the natural self discharge on an old set of batteries did the rest. But theres is no way to know unless you MEASURE THE CURRENT while turned OFF.

[yeshelp]

Hi
is there something else connected to the battery? Not directly on the battery but maybe down the river. I see leds for night even thought I dont know how to put them on. I did not have time to take a look at the chair is was a streatch to make it arrive at my place at least to have something the would be kind of ready.

MEASURE the residual current when the chair is turned OFF. It should be less than a few mA.
I dont know how to do it. what tool is needed?
what I find on google is that I would need a leackage clamp meter but my proster does not seem to do it accorting to AI

At the moment I am trying to fit winter tires on the orthofab chair. I installed the good regular gel Mk batteries in it and the weels are turning. But I Still kind of feel it is risky for this chair to over drain.

If the residual current cannot be calculated. Is there a way to at least see that it is not unusually or dramatically draining the chair or i dont know, a way to reassure myself that it is normally draining under control ? My victon connect shows me how many amps has been added for 1 day . If I compare it with this chair will that give a good idea? I always do the similar km with the dog, very low.


The Proster Digital Clamp Meter TRMS 6000counts (800A AC/DC model) is a general-purpose, auto-ranging, multipurpose clamp meter, not a specialized leakage clamp meter. While it can measure current, it lacks the high-sensitivity 
 (microampere) or low-mA range resolution required to detect minute leakage currents (typically 
)

[Burgerman]

If you chair was really draining a battery when off in a short time then something would be either making light or heat. If it isnt then its not. It would be obvious.

Stop using AI its crap!
You need any DC clamp meter and it must measure in the mA range. Over a battery cable.

But you are wasting your time. What you really need is the knowledge that I have in my head! I cant give you that. The real answer to every one of your questions is complicated, and has many provisos and extra nformation needed.

Its also not worth fixing old systems as it costs more than buying say an R-net full system which is easy to get and plug and play.

[yeshelp]

3. If a battery is healthy, like your MK batteries? and it is DISCCONNECTED electrically from the chair, by removal, or use of the breaker, or by disconnecting a battery connection physically then charge it (them) with a 12V charger seperately every 2 to 3 months.

Im interested in this approch. I wonder, If the chair batteries are connected to the chair with the usual anderson connector BUT with the joystick unpluged, does it fall into the number 3 category?

[Burgerman]

No.
The power module is the thing that takes a few mA of power 24/7 even if turned off. Its not much. But it reduces charge level over time. A lead battery DETERIORATES if its stored in any state other than 101% charged.

If a battery is 95% charged, all the chairs lights will light up. It stll LOOKS to be fully charged. Its not. If it is allowed to stay in that 95% state for say a month, you lost 5% of the range. Because that 5% is now not recoverable. Keep doing this, and your battery is soon "smaller" than it was when new. There are other things that murder batteries too. Like crappy mobility chargers. Heat. DEEP discharges, etc. These all happen at the same time.


A battery that is disconnected STILL gradually discharges But it does this slower. So can be charged every couple of months. By charged I mean connect to 13.8V (27.6V) overnight to refresh a battery that is stored. You can do that weekly, bi-weekly if its connected in a chair. Ir every couple of months if stored DISCONNECTED.

These two things are discharging your battery SLOWLY. It is happening all the time when your chair is sat and turned off. You need to keep it FULL!

[yeshelp]

Is there anything else connected to these batteries? Such as a USB power system or anything? I suspect you actually left the chair turned on. And it discharged the battery to a low figure. And the natural self discharge on an old set of batteries did the rest. But theres is no way to know unless you MEASURE THE CURRENT while turned OFF.

It not impossible that I left it open. I think the light on the joystick would be have been obvious to notice so it is unprobable unless the chair can be turned on without joystick lights showing. But lets say I did let the chair on, Isn't the chair auto shuting down after x time or more importantly when the batteries go too low for the chair (lets say between 20v and 23v, ) is not the chair shutting down the same way if the batteries are too low a chair won't start?

There is also this button on the side of the chair(picutre) that I wonder if it could be the drain responsable. It is a button that tilts the chair backward -forward. It was operationnal and remained plugged in just like the joystick remainded pluged in. I read you when you say the joystick does not drain but could this on off switch be the thing that drained the batteries or the connections of the tilt motors themself?

Thanks

[Burgerman]

I have no idea what is in that box with a switch.

You need to MEASURE to see if it drains.

But lets say I did let the chair on, Isn't the chair auto shuting down after x time or more importantly when the batteries go too low for the chair (lets say between 20v and 23v, ) is not the chair shutting down the same way if the batteries are too low a chair won't start?

A battery is basically dead at 22V. And will soon die and be permanantly damaged if left that way for months.
The chairs system will not turn off unless the battery goes super low. Below 16V.

[Burgerman]

If you cannot DISCONNECT the battery. And want to store a chair. Go on eBay and get a couple of these. They are only tiny, cheap, 2A, and you can set to a fixed voltage like 26.6V indefinitely and just leave it on. Or set 27.6V to refresh OVERNIGHT once aweek. Or 27.2 for a full 24 hours weekly or bi-weekly.

These things are about £8...
You need to solder an XLR connector to it.

I use these all the time set to around 26.5 to 26.6 and leave connected 24/7 indefinitely.

[yeshelp]

good to know thanks!

[emilevirus]

I have no idea what is in that box with a switch.

It's for seat tilt. Lights have a separate switch as well. It's govt funded so they're too poor to afford ISM module.

[Burgerman]

So lights can be turned on then forgotten?

Now we know how.

[emilevirus]

I mean, they only have 0.5W LEDs. It would take ages to discharge a battery. You'd notice before it took 1Ah out of the battery.

[Burgerman]

4 of them?

Thats 2 watts.
At 24V thats 0.084A.
In 10 hours thats 0.84Ah
So in a day thats 0.84 x 2.4 = 2.16Ah per day.
So 74Ah div by 2.16 = 34 days to 100% dead battery.

But they may not have been healthy to start with? Maybe 50Ah instad of 74. So approx 22 days.
And they may not have been freshly charged either so maybe half charged? So now we are talking about say less than 1 to 2 weeks. And he parked it and left it for months.

But its likely a lot worse than that. Why? Because LEDs are diodes. They are a fraction of a volt. That reduction is normally done with a resistor on most cheap LEDs. So while an LED light is probably 0.5W (and a fraction of a volt or it will die), that same current goes through a resistor and wastes 23.x volts while producing no light... So eating ten times or so as much current. Your 0.5W LED Light might be consuming 5W each. So 3 days from full to empty.

[yeshelp]

I mean, they only have 0.5W LEDs. It would take ages to discharge a battery. You'd notice before it took 1Ah out of the battery.

HI do you know where the light switch would be? I m sure the lights for traffic where not on so it is still a mystery.

I would think the lights open via the joystick since you dont hide a light button from the user, if it is not visible it is probably controlled by the joystick . But it is the first time i have one like this so it might be a bit hidden

But it is good to know where the switch is for the next time Ill put batteries in. The orthofab does not want to send me the user manual can you beleive it. And it is a purchased chair(from the person I bought it from(died so his wife)). Still Orthofab refuse to send me the pdf.

it is a G2 from 2014 . the ancestor of Oasis.I have the number of the chair too .

[emilevirus]

Why did you say it uses Pilot+. If it's a 2014 there's no way it's Pilot+. It must be R-Net. There must be a switch box somewhere for lights. Usually velcro'd near the joystick. Or it's been removed. That switch NEVER works. I don't know what switch they use but it needs to be replaced every 2 months.

[Burgerman]

Why do you say its not pilot plus?

[emilevirus]

He says the chair was made in 2014.

[Burgerman]

12 years ago thee were still chairs sold with pilot plus as far as I know.

[yeshelp]

Why did you say it uses Pilot+. If it's a 2014 there's no way it's Pilot+. It must be R-Net. There must be a switch box somewhere for lights. Usually velcro'd near the joystick. Or it's been removed. That switch NEVER works. I don't know what switch they use but it needs to be replaced every 2 months.

Hi Emile, I dont remember saying it is a pilot plus. I dont know for sure what it uses.

[Burgerman]

It doesent matter much what it uses. We are trying to revive 2 dead 12V batteries. And its hard to see any way a switch can cause that.

Leavng controller on can.
Leaving lights on can.
A controller fault with a small drain current could, (measure it).

Thats about it.