Invacare gb motors

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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby woodygb » 31 Dec 2011, 16:17

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Sterzo correct.JPG
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby LROBBINS » 31 Dec 2011, 16:17

Woody,

My understanding is that in Dynamic systems the "brain" is actually in the joystick box. It not only sends instruction packets to the PM or CLAM, but also receives packets from them. So, for example, if the CLAM's packet includes a "slow" inhibit because an actuator is moved, the joystick "brain" receives, interprets the % slowdown as programmed, and then sends that as a packet that is received, and acted on, by the PM. If the "brain" were in the PM, as I think it may be in P&G systems, the joystick box would have a more limited role. Actually, every module on a CAN bus can both receive and send, but some don't do much with received information while others do - as is the case for the main microcomputer in the "master control remote = joystick box". The attendant joystick module is a "dumb" joystick and there has to be a "master control remote" somewhere else in the system. (Dynamic does store a backup copy of the program parameters in the PM, in case the joystick module fails and a new one is put on, but the brains are in the "master control remote".) I think JoeC could correct me if my memory has failed me on this.

A possible problem in Denis.B's setup is that the joystick analog that feeds the rear PM may be only a joystick so that the slave system actually has no main computer and the PM gets only raw joystick information, without the modifications that would be applied by the programming. (That could also create situations where the two sets of motors are fighting each other causing problems with regeneration as well as turning.) I don't know if that is true, but until the master and slave systems are isolated it's hard to know what's going on. If the joystick analog is like an attendant joystic, one solution would be to add a second "master control remote" between it and the rear PM - a good one might be the no-longer-manufactured SCR (specialty controls remote) that has no joystick pot, but has a brain; I think Martin actually has a used one in his shop.

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby denis.b » 31 Dec 2011, 16:27

Here are some photos of the wheelchair.
As I told you is yet to be completed.
Missing cover the Recaro seats, the new arrangement of the wires out from the engine by removing the connectors and other things.
The problem I solved by using the steering circuit (three operational amplifiers) as shown in the picture.
The wheelchair will usually work with front-wheel drive, steering rack and pinion driven.
The rear electric brake control unit is powered from the front.
With the wheelchair stops all the wheels are locked.
I select the all-wheel drive only when necessary to avoid unnecessary consumption.
IMG_1404.jpg
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IMG_1408.jpg
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IMG_1410.jpg
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby woodygb » 31 Dec 2011, 16:41

It maybe better to reconfigure with one control module per side.

Here's another pic ...I'll delete some of the others.
Sterzo correct.JPG
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby woodygb » 31 Dec 2011, 17:00

So you have got mechanical steering!

My mistake.
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby LROBBINS » 31 Dec 2011, 19:02

Denis, non ho ancora guardato il circuito da vicino, ma se funziona hai già risolto il problema!

Visto che avevi lo stesso problema di sterzo sbagliato in retromarcia quando stai usando solo i motori anteriori (dando la risposta alla mia domanda nel messaggio precedente), il problema risiede nel quadro per quel paio. Quando ho cambiato (da 180o) l'orientamento del PM di Rachele avevo lo stesso problema. Stasera controllero i parametri del programma per scoprire cosa avevo cambiato per rettificarlo. Forse la scheda aggiunta non sarà necessaria.

Denis, I haven't yet looked at your circuit diagram, but if it works the problem is solved!

Given that you had the same steering problem in reverse when using only the front motors (the answer to my question in my last message), we now know that the problem is in the controller for the front motors. When I changed the orientation of the PM in Rachi's chair (by 180o) we had the same problem. Later tonight I'll take a look at the parameters in her program to figure out what I changed to make it work correctly. Maybe the extra circuit board won't be needed.

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby woodygb » 31 Dec 2011, 19:27

but if it works the problem is solved!

If Denis is satisfied ..then GREAT!

This is how I have imagined the combined setup to be.
Sterzo correct2.JPG
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby shirley_hkg » 01 Jan 2012, 07:56

denis.b wrote:
but going back to the steering is reversed by turning left goes right and vice versa.



;) It is absolutely normal that I pull my joystick left and back ; IF I AM BACKING TO MY RIGHT.
.
Did you mix up something ? It's a wheelchair , not the same as a car.
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby Burgerman » 01 Jan 2012, 10:23

Thats what I said about 20 posts ago! Joystick controls rotation of vehicle seen from above. The opposite from a steering wheel. Which rotates the other way when reversing.
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby Martin O Refurbisher » 01 Jan 2012, 10:34

I agree with Shirley.

I am sat in a Sunrise F75S (with Recaro) [same electronics as F55S] using P&G, and it behaves exactly that way!

Joystick back, goes back; joystick back and to a side - chair turns in the opposite direction to the joystick pull; pull the joystick back and left; chair goes back and right!

Best,

Martin
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby malamar » 01 Jan 2012, 11:25

Comunque, per mé, quella centralina la dis, la dis che l' é malata..per non mangiar polenta.. :cry:
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby Burgerman » 01 Jan 2012, 11:37

Can I get chilli sauce on mine? 8-)
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby LROBBINS » 01 Jan 2012, 11:43

I think that Denis was complaining that the mechanical steering on the 4WD chair WAS behaving like a car, and not like a wheelchair. He wanted it to behave the same as a wheelchair, stick right = nose right whether going forward or backwards, rather than as a car, steering wheel right = nose right going forward, nose left going backwards. He has achieved this by electronically flipping the signal to the steering gear motor (a fifth motor!) when driving in reverse.

Penso che Denis brontolava che lo sterzo meccanico della 4WD si comportava COME un'automobile invece che come una carrozzella. Voleva il comportamento uguale alla carrozzella tipica: joystick a destre = "naso" a destra sia muovendosi in avanti, sia muovendosi in dietro, invece che come in una machina: volate a destra = "naso" a destra andando in avanti, "naso" a sinistra andando in dietro. E' riuscito a farlo invertendo elettronicamente il segnale al motore dello sterzo (il quinto motore!) quando è in retromarcia.

Ciao,
Lenny

P.S. Non ho controllato i parametri del quadro di Rachele poiché mi sono reso conto, finalmente, che sono non pertinenti per un sistema che non utilizza la potenza differenziale per sterzare. Tutto è diverso quando i motori motrici rispondono solo al X, e il serve sterzo risponde al Y.

I didn't check the programming of Rachi's system because I finally realized that they are simply irrelevant for a chair that doesn't use differential power for steering. Everything is different when the driving motors respond only to X and a separate steering motor responds to Y.
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby woodygb » 01 Jan 2012, 11:59

I think that Denis was complaining that the mechanical steering on the 4WD chair WAS behaving like a car, and not like a wheelchair. He wanted it to behave the same as a wheelchair, stick right = nose right whether going forward or backwards, rather than as a car, steering wheel right = nose right going forward, nose left going backwards. He has achieved this by electronically flipping the signal to the steering gear motor (a fifth motor!) when driving in reverse.



So it seems ... but I have a feeling that "fixing" this may throw up other problems.
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby malamar » 01 Jan 2012, 12:00

No Bm! If you just know a little about that war song of the Alpini troops at Alpi Dolomite, you' ll ask more correctly for jam and sausages, as an accompanying treat to polenta :evil: denis sure knows

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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby denis.b » 01 Jan 2012, 17:08

"Penso che Denis brontolava che lo sterzo meccanico della 4WD si comportava COME un'automobile invece che come una carrozzella. Voleva il comportamento uguale alla carrozzella tipica: joystick a destre = "naso" a destra sia muovendosi in avanti, sia muovendosi in dietro, invece che come in una machina: volate a destra = "naso" a destra andando in avanti, "naso" a sinistra andando in dietro. E' riuscito a farlo invertendo elettronicamente il segnale al motore dello sterzo (il quinto motore!) quando è in retromarcia."

it is so!

The steering problem I solved it with a circuit that detects when the wheelchair goes back automatically reverses the steering from left to right.
Another thing I would ask you where to buy two oil shocks absorber with adjustable load long approximately 19cm.
IMG_1409.jpg
IMG_1409.jpg (96.6 KiB) Viewed 4231 times

What you see in the picture is too rigid (1250lb) and has no oil shock.

I wish you all a happy new year!
thank you
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Re: shocks

Postby Martin O Refurbisher » 01 Jan 2012, 17:29

The F55 shocks are made by:

http://www.hagon-shocks.co.uk/

Best,

Martin
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby LROBBINS » 01 Jan 2012, 20:09

denis.b,

penso che sarebbe d'interesse per te seguire gli esperimenti di Burgerman con l'uso di batterie LiFePO4. Per te, l'alta tensione che lui sta per usare non sarebbe d'interesse, ma potresti assemblare batterie di autonomia molto più ampia e di meno peso allo stesso tempo. Visto che questa carrozzella non è adatta al trasporto aereo, non dovresti preoccuparti del divieto che è un ostacolo insuperabile per noi. Sono care, ma la durata ripagherebbe più del costo iniziale. Se intendi continuare con le batterie al piombo, suggerisco una lettura delle pagine di Burgerman sulle diverse tipologie disponibili. Con l'use delle Odyssey invece delle Varta potresti usare 2WD in molte delle situazione in cui ora devi attivare il secondo paia di motori. (I prezzi per Odyssey in Italia sono assurdi, ma si può ordinarle dalla UK a prezzi raggionavoli.)

I think it would be worthwhile for you to follow Burgerman's experimenting with LiFePO4 batteries. For you, higher than 24V wouldn't be of interest, but you could assemble a lighter battery with much higher capacity. Given that this chair will never be travelling by air, the ban on air transport would not be an issue as it is for us. They are very expensive, but the much longer life should more than make up the difference. If you intend to stick to lead, an attentive reading of Burgermans battery pages would be worthwhile. Switching from the Varta to Odyssey would let you use 2WD in many of the situations where you now have to activate the second pair of motors. (Odyssey prices in Italy are absurd, but one can order them from the UK.)

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby Ashley G » 01 Jan 2012, 22:06

Martin O Refurbisher wrote:I agree with Shirley.

I am sat in a Sunrise F75S (with Recaro) [same electronics as F55S] using P&G, and it behaves exactly that way!

Joystick back, goes back; joystick back and to a side - chair turns in the opposite direction to the joystick pull; pull the joystick back and left; chair goes back and right!



My Jazzy 1170XL and my NHS thing are both definitely different then :shock: If I pull my joystick back and to the left, both my chairs roll backwards and to my left (my left as I am facing forwards). My feet therefore swing around to the right as I reverse.

It's exactly what happens in a rear-wheel steering vehicles (eg: dumper-truck on a building site) and, to be honest, I had never imagined any other variation would be in use.

In fact, I think that's intuitive, whereas pulling the stick left in order to turn right seems counter-intuitive. My chairs always move toward the direction of the joystick throw, regardless of whether I am rolling forwards or backwards and, although I haven't looked deliberately, I can't think I ever saw anybody else's chair behave differently.

I must be missing something, somewhere :?

Btw - just for clarity, the pictures I was referring to in my last post were the ones at http://bit.ly/sZM0tc.
Some of the later ones went a bit over my head :oops:

Regards

Ashley

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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby woodygb » 01 Jan 2012, 22:32

If I pull my joystick back and to the left, both my chairs roll backwards and to my left (my left as I am facing forwards). My feet therefore swing around to the right as I reverse.



I pull my joystick back and to the left, both my chairs roll backwards and to my left
... If your chair is turning to your left surely your feet follow and turn with you?
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby woodygb » 01 Jan 2012, 22:56

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Invacare gb motors
by LROBBINS on Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:43 am

I think that Denis was complaining that the mechanical steering on the 4WD chair WAS behaving like a car, and not like a wheelchair. He wanted it to behave the same as a wheelchair, stick right = nose right whether going forward or backwards, rather than as a car, steering wheel right = nose right going forward, nose left going backwards. He has achieved this by electronically flipping the signal to the steering gear motor (a fifth motor!) when driving in reverse


After plowing thru the posts again I'm of the opinion that Denis might have done the exact opposite and made a wheelchair into a car .

Perhaps you could confirm the EXACT specs / mods sometime Lenny.

Cheers Alan
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby Ashley G » 01 Jan 2012, 23:16

woodygb wrote:
If I pull my joystick back and to the left, both my chairs roll backwards and to my left (my left as I am facing forwards). My feet therefore swing around to the right as I reverse.



I pull my joystick back and to the left, both my chairs roll backwards and to my left
... If your chair is turning to your left surely your feet follow and turn with you?


Um, no ? Not really.

Let's say I am reversing out of an aisle at the supermarket, and turning to my left, ready to move to the next aisle. I reverse the chair by pulling back on the joystick. I turn left (while reversing) by moving the joystick left. That directs the back of the chair into the left but the front - which obviously has to follow along - will point outwards, to the right. In fact, it's my front end swinging to the right as I turn which is likely to catch other shoppers / the display cabinet and anything else which happens to be in the way unnoticed.

When my right wheel is rotating backwards faster than my left wheel, I'm not sure how that could be any different.

Perhaps I should have omitted reference to feet. I thought it might clarify what I meant by "left".

I'm still struggling with the concept of people pulling right in order to reverse left. I may even need to go visit some people to check that out.

Regards

Ashley

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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby LROBBINS » 02 Jan 2012, 00:14

Woody, Denis.b already confirmed my description:
Postby denis.b on Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:08 pm

(first, he quoted my Italian version of what I described)
"Penso che Denis brontolava che lo sterzo meccanico della 4WD si comportava COME un'automobile invece che come una carrozzella. Voleva il comportamento uguale alla carrozzella tipica: joystick a destre = "naso" a destra sia muovendosi in avanti, sia muovendosi in dietro, invece che come in una machina: volante a destra = "naso" a destra andando in avanti, "naso" a sinistra andando in dietro. E' riuscito a farlo invertendo elettronicamente il segnale al motore dello sterzo (il quinto motore!) quando è in retromarcia."

(and then confirmed its accuracy)
it is so!

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby woodygb » 02 Jan 2012, 01:06

Thank you Lenny....


Ashley ,

I'm fascinated by what appears to be two different joystick control modes....this may explain the problems I've previously had trying to "fix" / trouble shoot motor direction and joystick combo's via the web...by erroneously assuming that the joystick control / direction was universal.

Could you tell me where "spin" ( one motor fast forward the other fast reverse ) is on your joystick .... in fact a "map" of your joystick knob position versus motor directions would be appreciated!

Cheers Woody
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby ex-Gooserider » 02 Jan 2012, 09:07

Another thing I would ask you where to buy two oil shocks absorber with adjustable load long approximately 19cm.


Don't know for sure, but I suspect that your best bet would be the folks making shocks for the pedal-bike market. I know that is what the shocks on my 626 appear to be.

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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby Martin O Refurbisher » 02 Jan 2012, 11:33

Hagon are renowned for motorbike shocks

- Alf Hagon who founded the company was into dirt track, grasstrack, speedway, motorcross etc. My late Father and Uncle rode with him in the c 1930s

http://www.hagon-shocks.co.uk/common/pd ... gueopt.pdf

My first bike was a Greaves scrambler then a BSA 250cc C15 road bike (to get my licence) both with some of Alf Hagon's input!

Best,

Martin
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby Ashley G » 04 Jan 2012, 18:59

woodygb wrote:
Ashley ,

I'm fascinated by what appears to be two different joystick control modes....this may explain the problems I've previously had trying to "fix" / trouble shoot motor direction and joystick combo's via the web...by erroneously assuming that the joystick control / direction was universal.

Could you tell me where "spin" ( one motor fast forward the other fast reverse ) is on your joystick .... in fact a "map" of your joystick knob position versus motor directions would be appreciated!




I'm not too good with producing a "map" but, hopefully, I can explain myself well enough in words with a tad more effort.

The "spin" position, is joystick left or joystick right, with no for'ad / aft movement. If the stick is pulled left, the left wheel reverses and the right wheel turns forward, so that the chair turns anti-clockwise in place. Conversely, pushing the stick right, the right wheel reverses and the left wheel turns forward, so that the chair turns clockwise in place.

If the stick is pushed only halfway right and forward (let's call that North-East), the chair will move forwards in a gentle right turn. It's tracks on sand, for example, would describe the top left quadrant of a circle. Assuming I could hold the stick at exactly the same right -v- left angle, whilst pulling it backwards instead of forwards (that would then be South-East), the chair would reverse its path and, still moving backwards, would go on to describe the lower left quadrant of the same circle. Eventually, of course, it would complete the circle.

So, in a nutshell, my chairs go in the direction of the joystick, whether I am moving forward or reversing. Left stick steers the chair to my left, regardless of whether it is rolling forwards or backwards. Right stick steers it to my right, whether it is rolling forwards or backwards. Moving the stick left, with no forward/backward moment applied, causes the chair to revolve in place, anti-clockwise. Moving it to the right, with no backward/forward moment applied, causes it to revolve in place, clockwise.

Does that help ? When my son next pops home, I could probably get him to video one of the chairs doing its thing, if this explanation isn't clear enough. I can't think of a better way to describe it.

I am truly surprised that a chair should do any different from that, so I can well understand how that might be causing you problems if you are trying to diagnose a problem remotely, as you mentioned.

What I find oddest of all is that you, Martin and BM are all, like me, in the UK and yet my chairs - both of them - appear to behave differently from all yours ! More surprising, one is an NHS standard and the other a Jazzy.

Regards

Ashley

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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby LROBBINS » 04 Jan 2012, 19:50

Ashley, Assume your chair is facing N. When you place the stick in NE which way does your nose turn? When you place the stick in SE which way does your nose turn? On every chair I've ever seen, the users nose will be turning toward the right in both cases. If you do the same thing in a car, your nose will turn toward the right in the first case, but toward the left in the second. Ciao, Lenny
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby woodygb » 04 Jan 2012, 20:10

Ashley,
You explanation is very clear ...

Thank you.
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Re: Invacare gb motors

Postby woodygb » 05 Jan 2012, 13:08

Ashley,

This is the map of a joystick...does it match yours?

Image
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