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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby ex-Gooserider » 18 Sep 2017, 23:42

Gnomatic wrote:
Burgerman wrote:Ideally on the chair, where 200A can be demanded you need 10sqmm and it needs to be marine, tinned, and thin hard insulation.

Silicone is used by the hobby industry because it means the cables can be smaller, lighter, more flexible, because it doesn't melt. But that stuff is easily torn, or ripped and you don't want silicone cable on the chair itself.



Hmm .... I used 8AWG silicon cabling on my chair. Its short and has a an Anderson on one end which plugs into the Anderson on the stock cabling the feeds the R-net power module.

My chair had a 150A Minifuse in stock config, which I replaced with a 120A push to trip breaker when I installed my pack. I'm ~220lbs and I've been pretty aggressive climbing steep hills, going offroad etc. Did a lot of hiking on bridle and ATV trails the last couple months. I never tripped the breaker once, and I'm pretty confident I won't going forward, unless I manually do it.


As I mentioned elsewhere, the 10mm^2 that BM uses is about = AWG 7, which doesn't exist, so in the US we need to do either AWG 6 or 8... I use 6, but 8 will probably work for most users. AWG 6 is really only needed if you are doing hard core sports or other demanding uses.

I think silicone wire is usable, but ONLY if it is well protected by being enclosed in some sort of braid or other housing. That said, my preference is slightly different from BM's - I've tried the tinned marine stuff and while it isn't bad, I didn't like it as much as I do welding cable. Welding cable is a bit more flexible, and I think has more robust insulation (think about how much abuse the cables get in a welding shop - hot stuff, getting walked on, dragged around on the floor and so on... It isn't tinned, but I don't think that is a big deal...

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby snaker » 21 Sep 2017, 09:42

I bought tin reels from a reliable shop. They are 0.6mm tin-lead 63-37, soldering result gets much better.

My dad has done some solder tests, here is the result. Are they Ok? Is there anything he should do to make solder better?
solder.jpg
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 21 Sep 2017, 11:44

Looks like too much heat and not enough cleaning or flux. The larger cable doese not look soldered or not enough solder? Could be wrong as pictures very noisy. Probably taking too long. The discolouration shows that. But it would likely work ok as it is.

Tin the cable on the larger one first. Then assemble. With flux, and add a small amount of extra solder as you heat it.

A good solderjoint is shiny, smooth, and no discolouration or dull appearance.

To get this you need to use flux, and just enough heat for a short time then stop!
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby shirley_hkg » 21 Sep 2017, 13:20

:D
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 21 Sep 2017, 13:37

Yes, like that! You dont count. You have done it before! :D
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby snaker » 22 Sep 2017, 01:39

The black cable was soldered. The ring terminal before soldering is like the pic underneath.

My dad followed the video below. He heated the terminal, tin was melted and ran from top down to bottom. Did he do the right way?
https://youtu.be/L9crUFwN6DE

He used a tiny flame gas pen for heating. As I saw he to soldered the black cable in 10 seconds. So he needs to reduce the soldering time down to a half. He did use flux, wires and terminals were clean before soldering.

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby snaker » 22 Sep 2017, 01:57

Here is the pic of terminals after being cut off.
solder-inside.jpg
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 22 Sep 2017, 02:45

i never heard anyone here talk about these -

https://www.zoro.com/grote-solder-pelle ... gIJZfD_BwE

would these work better to solder cable and by pass the crimping all together ?

seems easier to just drop one in the lug end - heat it up and slide the cable in it - thats it - ?

whats the pros and cons of using these ?
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2017, 03:53

I would have thought that the are a one size type thing. No flexibility. OK if you are doing hundreds the same and they are the correct size.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2017, 03:56

They are ok. Just dont look pretty. Too much heat maybe? Or bad photo even!
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 22 Sep 2017, 04:02

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyXMJIgpeyE


crimp - no solder - with the same crimper we use - looks pretty strong to me when done - cuts it in half - i cant see that coming loose -

i dont find any in 8 AWG size for those pellets - maybe if you look hard enough - looks simple enough but yes more heat to apply for a bit longer to melt it but then you can just slide the cable in when fully melted and should be solid in a few moments -

would need a vice gripe to hold the lug in place upside down - i guess for larger size wiring - it would be easier this way instead of crimping maybe -

i got used to the crimping tool now - and solder - my wiring is 8 AWG largest wire and was able to do fine -
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2017, 04:14

Put one in a vice and pull... The crimp LOOKS good the way he shows it. You can wiggle it and it falls out. Theres not enough metal in the terminals, They are made from a bit of soft copper tube, its too soft/weak. OK in small sizes but not in 6 to 10sqmm.

REAL crimp terminals are not soft copper thin wall tube, but heavy brass or thicker walled cast or forged copper, longer and require a lot more force to crimp. These, can be crimped alone, securely.

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2017, 04:47

Proper crimp type terminals cost. And very hard to get.

If its a cheap common, easy to get terminal, and its made from a bit of copper tube, looks like this one below, or is weak enough to squash in a vice or with pliers, it not strong enough for a secure crimp alone. And must be soldered. The clue is that many have a solder hole! As below:

Of course anything will work. For a bit...

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 22 Sep 2017, 04:53

Anderson 50

These DONT need soldering, but do need a hydraulic crimper:

Image
Image



These below DO need soldering, as the wall thickness is not adequate alone:

Image
Image
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby snaker » 23 Sep 2017, 01:49

My dad has not seen soldered terminals before, all he saw in his life were crimped. He used to believe that crimped terminals are already tight, solid more than enough. I had to firmly convince him soldering cables for the pack. After some solder tests, we all see that a soldered terminal is like an union metal block. It cannot be pulled out even by a pull machine. Interestingly, it can be easily and quickly done by cheap tools. Now my dad has to agree that no expensive crimping tools could achieve the same quality as soldering.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2017, 02:31

Well it is possible to have quality crimps.

But it takes an extremely controlled set of circumstances. Correct terminal type (not soft copper tube!). Correct matching crimping tool with the exact correct sized jaws etc, and perfect technique. This can be achieved with small wires, and in a production line/factory envoiroment easily enough. But trying to match this at home is all but impossible. And soldering with a little practice is simple. And capilliary action allows the solder to fill all voids and bond everything together and to the crimp itself. It allows you to know a good strong, solid joint just by looking. A crimp ONLY joint may "look" great. But it can oxydise between strands, work loose if people or something else pulls cables, and can corrode if not fully air tight.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby shirley_hkg » 23 Sep 2017, 05:04

RELAX snaker ! Your dad is right at some points . Cramped terminals will do , as we seldom pull the cables hard , when installed in wheelchair .

Squeeze as much wires into barrel as you can . Use short wires to fill up any extra space , before cramping .

Avoid using flexible cables , which are made up with hair thin wires .
The thinner the strands are , the easier they fail to cramping .

For those thin balance leads , I recommend solderring still .
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2017, 10:05

I recommend soldering especially the large ones. Saw too many bad ones fall apart or corroded over the years in the custom car/drag race world. I regard anything but professional production line crimps, as unsafe and unreliable at very best. Bring me your best, and I will pull it apart.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 23 Sep 2017, 22:52

BM - I made the changes to the Volts output to my motors on the Rnet - from 22.5V to 26V - i used the chair today first time

i made 4 profiles - mostly all the same - only the power was changed and maybe forward take off on a few - and will up the decleration now since i want it to stop faster

Ok on profile 2 - i put it to 85 percent power - next 90 , 95 and 100 - i used it mostly on 85 percent and felt pretty much same as before at 100 -
GPS shows 9 and 10 on downhills - coming off a bridge - i hit 10 - flickers back and forth 9 mostly and sometimes 10

i have yet to really use it long this way - will try it a while - then a different profile - i want to ask you again - this wont have any bad effects on the motors ?

and what about the wiring ? the wiring on the motors from the factory etc, - i just want to be sure this wont melt the factory wiring - -

i did a quick check on full speed and that shows 10 easy - NY streets are crappy so never even or straight etc, - hard to keep it at its full speed with the JS - always fighting the angles and bumps etc, - my GPS only shows whole numbers - if it shows 8 or 9 or 10 - they can be 10.5 or 9.8 - or 8.5 etc,

either way at profile 2 85% power - chair felt fine - - at 90% is much more snappy and speedy - now i have to adjust the declecration -

ALL i am concerned with is - - the extra volts - to the motor wiring - are they safe at this setting ?

thanks - pretty cool to get extra jump on things - i bet if i ever get the bounder - may not notice much a difference - i could be close to 11 for all i know - shows 10 but can be anything in between 10 and 11 - either way - regardless of the numbers etc, - felt good even at 85% power :D

Is my wiring safe at this 26V settings ??

thanks
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2017, 23:17

No need to worry. Its only a couple of volts more! Wires dont care about Volts. Just Amps.

Motors wear and fail anyway, but this is due to high currents, large torque mostly. At slow speeds. Running free at speed doesent bother them at all - its where they run coolest with the least stress. They will fail though regardless one day, as you do big distances. Everything wears out. But this wont cause it.


You now got the fastest chair in new york as well as the greatest range. Fastest charging. And longest battery life. Good no?

But I got 45V and 16mph! :mrgreen:
Heres what 15 looks like, excuse camera position... I did have it in my mouth but got jaw cramp!
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM3-con ... /15mph.mp4
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 23 Sep 2017, 23:37

:lol:

nice - well i cant beat that - you got me there - i may actually be the fastest in NYC - i dont know anyone else with lithium at all - never mind the little tweaks we just did -

theres always construction going on here everywhere for ever - so today i swear i could smell burning after about 15 mins outside - i got worried it was my motors or wires etc, - always happens when i make chances -

i used it mostly at 85% setting for about 15 miles today - -- made a few more changes to stop faster - i did notice or maybe its just me - my front wheel wobble - at times it happen more today than the other days - first thing came to my mind is - maybe its the chair just going a bit more faster - and its showing it more now or just by chance i hit the right amount of bumps today - which can be also - i am still getting the word out with the lithium to who ever wants to listen -

but still no cigars - in 5 years from now - someone will tell me they got lithium haha - would be old news to me -
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 23 Sep 2017, 23:42

My chair shows 3000 miles on it - this is my 3rd summer - but first summer with lead and hardly used - last summer first time lithium and used ALOT - Crashed with it - took me back down to common sense after that - what was i thinking going full speed down a steep hill with a sharp curve on a angle
i did it 5 or 6 times before the crash - now i slow it down to 3 mph :) at that spot -

is 3000 Miles alot for a chair in 3 years - mostly all done in 2 years - these motors should last what 10,000 miles ? more or less before breaking ?
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 23 Sep 2017, 23:48

You already went 10x further than most chairs ever do in a lifetime.

As long as nothing fails, like bearings, etc they will keep going. Brushes wear in time. So worth checking or swapping and blowing all the carbon out with an airline after a few years use. Other than that just keep on going! Olde page from 96 updated v slightly 7 years ago... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/motor-b ... rchair.htm
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 24 Sep 2017, 00:02

yeah brushes i can get done myself - they dont cost too much - i can just call my tech to come over and do that one day - but if its working fine - when is a good time to change them ? i feel its too soon now - i rather not touch something thats not broken yet -

i believe its simple - unscrew - pull out old brush - drop in new on same way - screw it back down ? do that 4 times on each motor and your set to go -

i wait to maybe 5 years - thats about the Avg. time frame before i can consider another replacement - only 2 more summers for that to happen -

what is a good indicator that its time to change them - not counting years or miles - etc, -
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Sep 2017, 00:05

Brushes may wear fast or slow. It depends on user, design, programming, useage, etc. They can also get chipped and damaged randomly. A worn or damaged brush may show no sign of problems. But can damage the armature and total a motor. So best to check now and again.
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 24 Sep 2017, 00:15

ok i see - i look into the parts - i just hate to touch them when its working fine - maybe in the winter - i mean what can go wrong in changing them ?

what mistakes can the tech. make ? just unscrew - remove - replace and screw back down ? nothing to adjust or align etc, right ??

what can i gain from doing them now - other than knowing there are new and may prevent other motor issues ?
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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Sep 2017, 00:18

Nothing can go wrong unless he fits them with a hammer!

Its like checking the oil in your car. You wouldnt leave it till its done the damage...

Old and new on the dogs bed!

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Sep 2017, 00:22

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby Burgerman » 24 Sep 2017, 00:24

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Re: Step by step lithium conversion?

Postby expresso » 24 Sep 2017, 00:36

yeah i seen the pictures before - i will look up the parts for my chair - if i find them direct from sunrise the correct brushes and caps i get them - i want to be sure i have the correct ones on hand - so this can be done with the motors on the chair - no need to remove the motors or open them -
just have to work upside down on the bottom ones i guess -

i am curious to see how much i wore mines - and how much i have left - to keep track - using the miles i did compared to how much it was used - like you said - just good to know and change anyway - cant hurt it -

thanks - i give my tech a call once i find the parts to ask him if he ever done them - if he wants to do it - i dont think they never changed brushes before because its not a item they do - nothing gets fixed till its broken and not working - then they change the motor - :lol:
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