PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

[terry2]

You need two packs of 6x6 or 36 cells. That's 72 cells total. That's 108Ah and high rate. No more Hyperions so now PL8v2 chargers and I am helping with some firmware, presets changes as we type...

That's great news as my batteries are getting weak now. I can still use my VR2 till I get the other things?

By the end of the year I will buy the rest, which is 45V ROBOTEQ HDC2450\ PL8v2 charger and a new controller.
As for motors I will keep trying to get 6-8 mph ones. Thanks BM.

[Burgerman]

Your VR2 doesent enter into anything as long as you are configuring this for 24V.

>>>That's great news as my batteries are getting weak now. I can still use my VR2 till I get the other things?
By the end of the year I will buy the rest, which is 45V ROBOTEQ HDC2450\ PL8v2 charger and a new controller.
As for motors I will keep trying to get 6-8 mph ones. Thanks BM.


I think you should do a lot of reading and understanding before getting involved in 45v systems, and Roboteq controllers. Its a long way from simple or plug and play and you really do need to understand what you are doing or it wont end well.

[terry2]

Your VR2 doesent enter into anything as long as you are configuring this for 24V.

I think you should do a lot of reading and understanding before getting involved in 45v systems, and Roboteq controllers. Its a long way from simple or plug and play and you really do need to understand what you are doing or it wont end well.

I will leave the 45v system
I just measured up and my battery bay is 330mm in length, 240mm in height and 228.6mm in width. So I think that's ok.
Sent off some emails to see what price I can get them for and if I will have to pay vat.

Is the new charger called the "OPTIPOWER CELLPRO PL8V2"? I'm getting all excited

[terry2]

BM is it ok for me to send a few Leccis this page to see if they will do it and how much
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/convert ... ithium.htm

[Burgerman]

CELLPRO PL8V2 yes.

If they need that page, then I wish you the best of luck...

You need to understand this, and take charge. Because leaving all this to the "experts" instead that also don't, will end badly. Seen it over and over. You either get it, understand it, and can keep on top or you will get problems... You need to delegate at a micro management level and oversee everything.

A bad cell, a mismatched cell, one loose screw, an incorrect setting, and all ends in tears.

Buy a few hobby packs, charge and balance these, use your new charger, figure out where the wires and connections go, watch it all on a computer monitor via software. THEN build a big powerchair battery and charge loom. Small steps...

[terry2]

CELLPRO PL8V2 yes.

If they need that page, then I wish you the best of luck...

You need to understand this, and take charge. Because leaving all this to the "experts" instead that also don't, will end badly. Seen it over and over. You either get it, understand it, and can keep on top or you will get problems... You need to delegate at a micro management level and oversee everything.

A bad cell, a mismatched cell, one loose screw, an incorrect setting, and all ends in tears.

Buy a few hobby packs, charge and balance these, use your new charger, figure out where the wires and connections go, watch it all on a computer monitor via software. THEN build a big powerchair battery and charge loom. Small steps...

What I was thinking is, that if someone could do the wiring for me and then build the pack.
I could then do the rest myself charging re-charging\balance\testing\rebuilding etc. As I know it will take many weeks to finish.

I've emailed that place in china you posted and that UK bike shop. I'm waiting to hear back.
DHL said they will contact me next week to talk about import charges and vat.

[Burgerman]

I ordered 78 cells for myself. I ordered 72 cells for a friend with scooter. Both times no duty.

I ordered 1 extra cell to replace a suspect one, and they charged my duty and VAT...

I would just risk it. Ask them to send as "battery for a wheelchair".

[terry2]

I ordered 78 cells for myself. I ordered 72 cells for a friend with scooter. Both times no duty.

I ordered 1 extra cell to replace a suspect one, and they charged my duty and VAT...

I would just risk it. Ask them to send as "battery for a wheelchair".

Is that from that Chinese site? Do you mind me asking how much shipping they charge you?

Ask them to send as "battery for a wheelchair

great think Bateman

[Burgerman]

Don't remember.

[terry2]

Hi BM.

Found the new charger with extras here http://www.align-trex.co.uk/cellpro-pow ... combo.html
will that be ok? what power supply do I need for it.

That place in china want $1,361 for the batteries and $256 for shipping. Which £1052+exchange costs.
I'm waiting on the UK bike shop to get back to me.

[Burgerman]

That will work if you only want a 6 cell battery.

The cheapest place to buy the 40A 8 cell one is the Singapore shop...

http://www.store.revolectrix.com/Produc ... Lab-8_1029

That's about 125 pounds...

You will likely want to connect to your chair to charge and balance through one connector, and use something like this:
http://www.in2connect.uk.com/combinatio ... ctors.html

Shell size 3, 9W4 and a couple of plastic shell covers. So only one connection. Which means you likely need one of these too CP8SEXT36 PL8 36" extension 4 Cellpro (JST PA) PowerLab 36" Extension Cable

[terry2]

BM I've just had a great price for the batteries from a UK shop(same price as china).
Trouble is I won't have the cash for the charger and wire and stuff for a few months. Will the battery's be ok not being charged\left in the box?


Finally getting somewhere now

[Burgerman]

Should be. Depends on initial state of charge. They are best stored at about 50 to 60 percent charged. And that's how they leave china.

[Burgerman]

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Terminal-block-2 ... 1351598679?

Those of you building hobby charger / lithium powered chairs and scooters may find this useful. Stick one of these on the chair, and you have 9 balance wires for an 8 cell 24V pack, and 16 left over for charge currents. Say 8 pos pins, 8 negative pins. Each pin is good for about 3 to 5 Amps continuous lets call it 4.

So you can safely charge and balance through one connector at up to 32A if you want. Or a bit more.

Just make up one lead with 2 fused high current 4mm Banana connectors, And 9 balance wires and a balance plug at the charger end and a single 25 pin Sub-D at the other. Use quality connectors... For any 8 cell charger like Hyperion. Pl8v2 etc.

I am just about to do this with 2 connectors to let me charge my 13S 45V chair with a pair of Revolectrix PL8v2 chargers. And am about to fit a lithium pack to my 24V BM2 chair.

Like this:

Code: Select all

 BM3 25 PIN TO FMA PL8v2 Charger combined balance and charge connector.

+ and - is power.
Numbers are balance connectors.

Looking at powerchair connector where - is no. 1 top left:
 
   
25 PIN SUB-D CONNECTOR - CHAIR SIDE:

    - - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 + +    13 pins top row
     - - - - - - + + + + + +     12 pins bottom Row

[Burgerman]

These arrived. The tracks on the board don't look 3A capable to me... So not so sure. May be better to just solder the connections directly to the Sub D connector. There's never an easy way...

[steves1977uk]

How about these connectors BM.....

http://uk.farnell.com/norcomp/681s13w3103l001/d-sub-combo-plug-40amp-13way/dp/2294355 and http://uk.farnell.com/norcomp/681s13w3203l001/d-sub-combo-receptacle-40amp-13way/dp/2294356

Was thinking of buying a couple of these for a one plug solution.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Those will work too. Better probably. Was looking at those myself. But I have a draw full of the plain ones. May even order a set. They do a 37 pin sized one that has 5 heavy contacts. So one connector can be used for 2 separate batteries or my 13S setup.

Still not sure exactly what is best. Trying to make it all interchangeable between chairs and chargers.

[steves1977uk]

I know how you mean BM as I have plastic boxes full of plugs and cables

On a side note, is it ok to set the max amps on the PL8 to 40A on the supply tab in CCS? I have my digimess PSU repaired and want to make sure I don't blow it again

Steve

[Burgerman]

Mines set to 40. And amps wound up full. It actually reaches 44A charging lead batteries directly. Volts set to 27. No problems charging flat out. We will likely see a new large preset soon with a 3.4v balance setting.

Don't use the lipo setting set to a lower charge voltage as it goes into "safety" charge at half an amp if cell balance exceeds 150mv... Use this one:



I ordered some of those connectors. Actually similar ones. The ones you linked to are not designed to solder wires on but to a board. I think?
These are the right ones anyway in case... :

Manufacturer: NORCOMP
Order Code: 2294341
Manufacturer Part No 680S13W3203L401


Manufacturer: NORCOMP
Order Code: 2294339
Manufacturer Part No 680S13W3103L401

And again really not cheap!!!

Attached preset. Its not a zip. Del .zip from the file name.

[Williamclark77]

I look forward to what you come up with because I'll have to do something similar eventually. I haven't looked into any other solutions yet. You could save me he fun of researching

[Burgerman]

All ordered, will be super neat and reliable.

To charge a greater than 8 Cell battery:

You can LEAVE your battery connected as one big 13S or 14S battery.

As long as you charge it with 2 separate PL8v2 chargers.
You just need to be sure that each one is correctly connected via these 2 connectors.




8 balance leads for 7 cells, and 2 thicker 12 AWG charge wires.
So you will have 2 leads, 2 connectors, cable tied as one lead. It doesn't even matter which is which.
So 2 attached to the chair.
And 2 on your charge cable.

untitled.png (71.25 KiB) Viewed 15673 times

http://www.digikey.co.uk/product-detail ... ND/3078433

And matching male half. With 2 alloy covers.
http://uk.farnell.com/norcomp/680s13w31 ... pd-r2-acce
http://www.canford.co.uk/Images/ItemIma ... 079_01.jpg

These give you 40A charge capability, and 10 pins for balance each battery of which you need nine.

This works ONLY IF YOUR 2 POWER SUPPLIES ARE ISOLATED. Or there will be smoke!

Works fine in fact as I already tested it with temporary wiring.

[Burgerman]

I am using 2x 1200 watt power supplies
2x PL8v2 chargers
It was not cheap but no more Hyperions and so I thought I would splash out...

But I can now charge at 2400 watts or so.
Or 40 Amps. With 1 Amp balance. x2

You could charge from dead empty to 90 percent in about 1.5 hours or less!

TWO of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USED-digimess ... 1650693897 Because they are bomb proof, and isolated. Floating output. This is essential.

TWO of these: http://www.revolectrix.com/pl8_description_tab.htm

This is an 8 cell charger. Use 2 in parallel. Its the best charger on the planet right now for reliability and power. And the only one with decent PC software. And its twice as powerful as the Hyperion. With more balance power. But its really not a cheap way to do it...

But it is good.

This means I have 1300 watts x 2 (2600 watts) charge capability.
Compared to a single 250 watts from a mobility charger.

1.5 hour charge.
Instead of 10 to 16 for a mobility device.

[Williamclark77]

So basically, you plug your two power supplies into two different wall outlets, your two power supplies into two separate chargers, and two separate chargers into two separate "banks" of your battery? I thought about that and it seemed like you would need to break the 13S or 14S connection where the individual banks were. I hadn't thought about it much. I have three Hyperion 1420i chargers still. Well, two since I smoked one, but it SHOULD be repairable also.

How high of a series cell count would that be able to charge? 16? I haven't had a chance to look at those chargers yet. I will shortly.

[Williamclark77]

Your last post wasn't there when I started my reply. I'll look at those chargers shortly. I would be scared to pull that many amps from a standard wall outlet for more than a few minutes at a time. It might trip a breaker!

I might would go up to 16S on mine if so. A big diode should protect the Roboteq from regen going over 60v.

It seems like you could get a Chinese company to build a "bms" that did nothing except when plugged into a power supply. Basically exactly as we do now with a Hyperion, just stays onboard, not powered on unless plugged into an outside source, and accepts a 120 or 240v supply from a wall outlet or xx volts from a power supply. No telling how many the minimum order would be to get them made though.

[Burgerman]

Most power supplies (many and almost all cheap ones) have the NEG tied to the ground pin. At the sub station this ground pin is additionally tied to the Neutral... This is the case with hobby, industrial, or computer server power supplies.

So the OUTPUTS of the chargers then have the NEG connections tied together even if using wall sockets on different houses...

So the chargers must be connected to a floating or isolated power supply.

To test, just measure the resistance between the NEG connections of your power supplies when switched off. Should be open circuit (very high impedance).

[Burgerman]

That way you can connect a "separate" isolated Power supply/charger, to each set of 7 or 8 cells even when connected up in the chair as one big single battery.

Each charger will be about 24v "different" to each other electrically but all plastic and isolated so it doesn't matter. As long as they are plastic cases, floating power supplies, etc. then its all fine. The USB connectors on the chargers are also isolated so can be plugged into the PC for control safely too at the same time.

On screen you just run two copies of the software. And you charge 2 separate 7 or 8 cell batteries. And get 2 graphs.

They even expect people to do this.

See: CONFIGURATION H on page 25/26

http://www.revolectrix.com/support_docs/item_1437.pdf

You could, if you fit a jumper connection, use G too.

[Burgerman]

2.6kw lithium computer controlled and monitored charging station... Unlike the Hyperion chargers these can only do 8 cells (up to 24v systems) so 2 are required if you use 36 or 48 volt setups..

This can put back DOUBLE the entire stored power quantity of any normal lead powerchair in under an hour! 40Amps x 28 Volts x 2 chargers. But is still controlled enough to also charge a single tiny watch battery safely.

Or 2.6kwh of energy in 1 hour... That means It can replace:
45 Miles of range in 1.5 hours into a large capacity Lithium battery.
22 Miles of range in 45 Mins.
11 Miles in 22 mins.
5 Miles of used power in 10 mins.

Provided your wall socket can give 3.1kW output. As each power supply needs 1550 watts.
In the UK that's possible. Every socket can in theory support 3.1KW max.
Not sure how that works in other countries? This is the most power you can get out of the wall. It will charge a full sized EV faster than the chargers they come with!

[LROBBINS]

In Italy it won't work. We have 10A/220V (2.2kW max) and 16A/220V (3.5 kW max) sockets, but the total available in an ordinary household service is 3.2 kW. We have to time the use of major appliances - if we forget and start the clothes dryer and microwave at the same time, we get to go out and reset the main breaker. One can get a 4.5 kW service, or even a 3-phase service, but they are very expensive.
Ciao,
Lenny

[Burgerman]

Then you would need about 6 old lead batteries and a small charger sat outside somewhere as a reservoir. Or charge a bit slower...

3.2kw total isn't much. An electric shower is 8.5kW! A dryer or water heater alone takes 3kW. I think the main fuse here in the UK is 100A or 150A in a normal house. And those seem good for much more in reality. Since they can only be changed by the power company. You never hear of one going bang...

Its probably one of those job creation schemes like never adding enough digits in phone numbers and being "surprized" when they run out of digits... Every 10 years. So how are they going to cope with electric cars? Those use up to 9kw chargers.

http://www.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/vehicle/e ... ttery.html

Even the toy Nissan Leaf has been upgraded from 3.3kW on-board charger to a 6.6kW one.

>>>we get to go out and reset the main breaker

Tape...

[LROBBINS]

Tape ...

Nope, the main breaker is part of a network-connected watt hour meter; trip is actually electronic and will happen even if the lever is held up.

Italy has virtually no in country fossil-fuels, and the cost of all sources of power is quite high, so there are some fairly strong arm approaches to encouraging people to use as little as possible. Of course, if you have to do n loads of laundry, you have to do n loads of laundry, but you are more likely to run full loads if running the washer means you can't turn on anything else larger than a few watts.

On the other side, Italy is now #2 in Europe for electricity generation from renewable sources; a large part of that hydro and some from geothermal, but wind and solar farms are becoming more common. We certainly have sun and wind in abundance.

Electric car charging poles are starting to appear on city streets - there are at least 6 in Siena at this point that I've come across, probably more.

Ciao,
Lenny