PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 12 Oct 2020, 10:16

And higher volts per cell, so you will need 7S rather than 8S and will be sitting on a firework.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby shirley_hkg » 12 Oct 2020, 15:39


You should only consider A123 pouch cells.

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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby optical10 » 13 Oct 2020, 12:17

optical10 wrote:
terry2 wrote:

You picture is cropped a bit to much to see.
But I still see no hologram on the top.

The 2 people on here they sold them too.

Mine was used 200AH sold as 170 AH
The other guy has the cell swelling and had to get another sent over.

I had to buy a 6mm(3 part) tap set, as the thread did not go down enough.

Don't forget you can't buy any PL8 as yet.
So don't rush to get the cells.


@Terry I've PM'd you to forward you a uncropped image.

How far down should the threads go then as they are laser welding the stainless steel bolts for me so I need to tell them please?

I got a PL8 already, spare on back order, Cellpro (JST PA) PowerLab 36" Extension Cable on the way.


Looks like Terry's suspicions were correct, it doesn't seem the RJ Energy Portable 3.2 Volt 200AH Lifepo4 Battery Cells Li-ion LFP Battery are new as I'm not getting confirmation by email to the contrary from them. Guess the clues in the cell description title, it never says the word new whereas the AliExpress ones below do and have the hologram and foil seal intact in the pictures.

So the Aliexpress he linked to our looking favourite especially as there's a one day and 20 hours remaining of a 25% off sale, that's a saving of £316 on eight cells!
Has anybody dealt with this supplier, SOONBUY Official Store, via AliExpress or otherwise & what was your experience like please?
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby terry2 » 13 Oct 2020, 13:30

There are loads of sellers on Ali.
You just have to find the one you trust. And pay via pay pal.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001 ... 5614%23523

They are cheaper....but it's up to you.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby optical10 » 13 Oct 2020, 13:59

terry2 wrote:There are loads of sellers on Ali.
You just have to find the one you trust. And pay via pay pal.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001 ... 5614%23523

They are cheaper....but it's up to you.


Turns out that was the same company but the discount had increased from 25% up to 49% for the same cells! So the first quote was for £955.71 for eight cells in the second you just sent me for the same cells £699.33! I'm gonna order one spare, which I can only do only on the second quote at the cheaper price ironically which there was no option for in the first!

Once again many thanks Terry, I will obviously report back once they arrive and my experiences dealing with this company.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Furio » 26 Oct 2020, 11:27

Hi BM,

What is your take on nickel strips as lifepo4 cell connectors on our wheelchairs. I received nickel strips as connectors with cells from China.

Thanks.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 26 Oct 2020, 12:26

Depends on how they are used, connected, sized, etc. But I think you mean nickel plated? I dont know what you are looking at there.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Furio » 26 Oct 2020, 14:01

Hi BM,

They have supplied 8 nos. nickel plates, about 70mm long, 30mm wide, 0.2~0.3mm thick each punched with two 6.5mm holes. This is my second set of 120Ah lifepo4. The first set was supplied with copper connectors.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 26 Oct 2020, 15:32

Sounds rather thin... Hard to say without seeing.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby ex-Gooserider » 27 Oct 2020, 04:06

Furio wrote:Hi BM,

They have supplied 8 nos. nickel plates, about 70mm long, 30mm wide, 0.2~0.3mm thick each punched with two 6.5mm holes. This is my second set of 120Ah lifepo4. The first set was supplied with copper connectors.


Are you sure they are solid nickel, and not plated copper? Plated copper is common in electronics stuff as it is more resistant to corrosion and oxidation....

In terms of size - figure out the cross sectional area (your dimensions suggest 6-9mm^2) and compare that to wire sizes - BM uses 10mm^2 wire on his packs, so probably OK?

The other concern is how much flex the strips have and whether they will cause connection issues if the cells move around with respect to each other.... On the old Headway cells where the cells were in a rigid frame it wasn't a big deal to use solid strips. It seems to be more of a problem w/ the flat cells that we are using now... One thing that can help is if the strip are made with a bit of a 'hump' to them so that there is a way for them to flex slightly as needed....

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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Furio » 27 Oct 2020, 10:10

Hi,

These are certainly nickel and magnetic. I had to round off the sharp corners. As for flexibility, my pack is solidly bound and taped. I have been using this pack for the last one year with cable connectors, but the internal resistance shows high as the connectors get oxidised due to water ingress during washing/rains. I would like to know, if I use nickel plates the ir will come down. :worship
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 27 Oct 2020, 11:36

It shouldnt have gone high in the first place if assembles clean and with proper materials. You shouldnt use bare copper. It oxidises fast. And it needs to be flexible like a ring terminal with a cable, so that no forces are transmitted to cells or they will move around, oxidise and get loose...

Personally I would use plated ring terminals, soldered wires. And I would use red loctite in the battery thread and a stud. And then the terminal. Then a FLAT washer. Then a nyloc stainless nut. As you assemble you can lightly smear with petroleum jelly to exclude water, air, etc.

Yes nickel is seldom used alone. So it is more likely to be plating something. It is a good plating material to help stop corrosion/oxidisation. Not sure how it works as a material in itself.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 27 Oct 2020, 11:46

For e.g. I Nickel plate things...
It is shiny, doesent oxidise, makes brass, steel, or copper parts look good! Even coins!

One step process. Plate bolts, steel parts, or as here a coin to show how it works.

Note before and after... Dirty copper coin, plated in shiny hard nickel. The longer you leave it the thicker the coating. This was just 3 minutes at 0.4A. Around 5V. Its the AMPS that matter. Set it to a low level, set volts to as high as you wish. The green electrolyte is acid with nickel ions. You can buy it, or make it. It never wears out as it its ions get replaced from the 2 nickel electrodes. One each side.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby ex-Gooserider » 03 Nov 2020, 04:27

Furio wrote:Hi,

These are certainly nickel and magnetic. I had to round off the sharp corners. As for flexibility, my pack is solidly bound and taped. I have been using this pack for the last one year with cable connectors, but the internal resistance shows high as the connectors get oxidised due to water ingress during washing/rains. I would like to know, if I use nickel plates the ir will come down. :worship


Pure nickel is not magnetic as I recall, so if they are magnetic, it sounds like plated steel.... Steel is not a terribly good conductor so probably not ideal for this....

I'd second BM's suggestion of plated terminals, and preferably plated copper wiring... If possible get terminals that have the ability to be sealed, I found some on e-bay a while back that were crimp-style, with glue-lined shrink insulation instead of the usual plastic. Crimp, then hit with hot air and the insulation shrinks down around the wire and the glue seals the joint so no oxidation... You might also try insulating the connections w/ silicone, pick a variety that does NOT release acetic acid when curing as that will corrode things.

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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2020, 14:00

You recall wrong. It IS magnetic. One of very few materials that are.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby terry2 » 05 Nov 2020, 11:46

No Pl8 V2 this year and most likely the next.

I am looking at a BMS in the US that has Bluetooth.
Just waiting for a guy on youtube to test it.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 08 Nov 2020, 18:21

:clap
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby terry2 » 08 Nov 2020, 21:22

'm in contact with these guys. https://overkillsolar.com/product/bms-100a-8s-lifepo4/

They have a Github https://github.com/FurTrader/OverkillSolarBMS

Every setting can be done via bluetooth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2ftiGI ... larChannel

Going to chat with them a bit more.
But I think I will get one as a backup, if it works with my cells(which it should).

The github is good.

Anyone want new 248ah cells CHEAP?

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 43518PyX5z
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 08 Nov 2020, 22:58

I know. Thats why I was clapping.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby terry2 » 09 Nov 2020, 09:22

Burgerman wrote:I know. Thats why I was clapping.



Thought you was being sarcastic :)

[YouTube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2ftiGI4Eas&ab_channel=OverkillSolarChannel[/YouTube]

Can't seam to inbed it the video :(
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby rickystyx » 09 Nov 2020, 09:40

Sadly the CHEAP cells page has been removed perhaps there's a reason for that :D
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2020, 10:42

Thought you was being sarcastic

I was.

Waiting for a you tube "EXPERT" to test a BMS! :clap

Reddit has good and bad stuff on it. An expert is someone that knows a bit more than you do aparrently. I took one look at the BMS and already decided. It reminded me exactly why I use the PL8. All the same issues that you will never undertand as all the ones I ever looked at. Wrong thing, in the wrong place trying to fix things we dont need or want in the current controlled powerchairs we are using. And terrible charge method.

The only thing it is useful for is cell monitoring. And if you add enough Ah thats pretty much irrelivant too. And you can get one for 3 quid.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby terry2 » 09 Nov 2020, 10:59

rickystyx wrote:Sadly the CHEAP cells page has been removed perhaps there's a reason for that :D



https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 43518PyX5z
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby terry2 » 09 Nov 2020, 11:04

Burgerman wrote:
Thought you was being sarcastic

I was.

Waiting for a you tube "EXPERT" to test a BMS! :clap

Reddit has good and bad stuff on it. An expert is someone that knows a bit more than you do aparrently. I took one look at the BMS and already decided. It reminded me exactly why I use the PL8. All the same issues that you will never undertand as all the ones I ever looked at. Wrong thing, in the wrong place trying to fix things we dont need or want in the current controlled powerchairs we are using. And terrible charge method.

The only thing it is useful for is cell monitoring. And if you add enough Ah thats pretty much irrelivant too. And you can get one for 3 quid.



It's the USA company that's doing it.

I have sent everything about my chair\cells\charger I use to them.
Just waiting till they test it.

A guy on youtube tested a 12V battery with the BMS in, and so far so good.
He does know what he is doing. He has written 4 books about lifepo4

And has earned enough cash to buy a house for his mom and dad and another for him with gigantic work shops :)
Not bad for a disabled homeless guy :)
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2020, 11:11

Good for him. It doesent mean he has a clue though. Many make millions on you tube. Most of its garbage.

I looked at the specs. You dont want 90% of what it does. All the protection parts of it are detrimental or unnedded. At all on our systems. You do want the cell monitor, but those are 10 a penny. As for its charging stuff, its just the same as every last BMS out there. Trying to control the charging from the wrong place. In the wrong way. But carry on! I give up trying to educate you as you obviously know more! I see trouble ahead!

I could go through every last parameter and "setting" and explain why its wrong or unwanted. I have done it before. But you would not understand it. BMS stands for Battery Murdering System. :clap
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby steves1977uk » 09 Nov 2020, 12:19

I figure we need to let Terry figure this out himself BM. Once he sees what a BMS does, he'll be wanting to rip it out! :thumbup:

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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2020, 12:59

He wont. As he doesent understand what he is looking at I think. So will sail along in ignorance like 90% of lithium battery users. You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him think.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby LROBBINS » 09 Nov 2020, 15:05

I'll note that the instruction manual pdf makes a big point of telling users to set it to BALANCE DURING CHARGE ONLY. I'll also note that it must have a pitifully small balance current since it is passively dumping from the high cell(s) through a 1/8 or 1/10 watt SMD resistor.

The high and low temp safeties are probably a total waste for wheel chair use, but don't do any harm. The high voltage cutoff is probably not a bad thing to have - but if the cells are ever even modestly out of balance with the tiny balance current it's going to hit that limit over and over; probably best to set it low enough that you won't be damaging the cells and set the max charge voltage lower than one would like, giving up a bit of capacity to keep the cells away from the high voltage cutoff except if something is really out of whack.

So, he at least gets the top balance only notion, but the board is just too weedy.
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby terry2 » 09 Nov 2020, 16:22

LROBBINS wrote:I'll note that the instruction manual pdf makes a big point of telling users to set it to BALANCE DURING CHARGE ONLY. I'll also note that it must have a pitifully small balance current since it is passively dumping from the high cell(s) through a 1/8 or 1/10 watt SMD resistor.

The high and low temp safeties are probably a total waste for wheel chair use, but don't do any harm. The high voltage cutoff is probably not a bad thing to have - but if the cells are ever even modestly out of balance with the tiny balance current it's going to hit that limit over and over; probably best to set it low enough that you won't be damaging the cells and set the max charge voltage lower than one would like, giving up a bit of capacity to keep the cells away from the high voltage cutoff except if something is really out of whack.

So, he at least gets the top balance only notion, but the board is just too weedy.



It will do as a backup.

And shirley_hkg is looking and trying some BMS as well.

With no PL8 coming in to stock any time soon.
It's best to cover ones bases :)
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Re: PINNED - Lithium battery conversion/info

Postby Burgerman » 09 Nov 2020, 16:33

Didnt someoe post a link where they were in stock?
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