a Lifestand LSC battery life problems

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a Lifestand LSC battery life problems

Postby funkykeyboard » 22 May 2010, 16:12

I have tried reading some of the threads, but I get confused. So could you please help a complete novice?

I have a a Lifestand LSC http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=192, and it takes four batteries. Sometimes I am only getting between three and six months out of the batteries. And even with brand new batteries, I am not getting a full day out of them if I am out and about such as on holiday. I am wondering if there are four little batteries better than the ones I have got, people could recommend. And also whether there is a better charger. My problem is I have to rely on other people putting it on charge for me, namely PA’sw, so it has to be easy, because they don’t have the patience for electrics.

Below is a report from the manufacturer. Please notice this bit in particular; “These batteries have been tested: - 2 ones appear defective 35%, 40%, - 2 others ones are good 87% and 94%”


Power charger;
Way ahead in battery charging
Classic 10A

typ: classic 10 A IP 54 - Pnenn: 325 W EN60601-1
ue:115v ac f:60 hz ue:230v AC f: 50 Hz EN60601-1-2

Batt type: open/GEL / AGM: 20-100 Ah U: 24V ---- I:10A

The received chair contains 4 batteries which never are sold by LifeStand because we don’t know this mark (mark: DENKA CYCLIC 12V 18Ah - model: DK.121 80C - lot: EK21GAQ - date: 09 04 08).

These batteries have been tested:

- 2 ones appear defective 35%, 40%,

- 2 others ones are good 87% and 94%.

1. The shipping history to CYCLONE and to Permobil Ltd for end-user Mark SWINDELL LS31345 :

03/2006 - delivery of the chair.

04/2008 – LS sent 4 GEL batteries

11/2009 – LS sent 4 batteries FIAMM cyclic FGC21803.

2. The shipping history with Permobil Ltd during the same period was :

To send batteries FIAMM cyclic FGC21803 (Ref C5004XXXFO)

05/2009 - 8 batteries for your warehouse,

07/2009 - 10 batteries for your warehouse.

We did a real test on the road on a LSC with 4 new batteries charged. We drove 15kms on it without problem of capacity.

Why the batteries inside this chair were NOT the same as these ones delivered in November 2009? And we don’t understand the reason.

We know the cycle and the capacity of our batteries but we have no info about DENKA batteries present inside this chair.

Otherwise, we have no negative feedback of our used charger IMPIRA 10A.

For your info, our batteries FIAMM cyclic FGC21803 are warranted by the manufacturer to 300 charge and discharge cycles.

If the LSC can run up to 8 km / h and if we can drive 15kms with them, the autonomy is 2 hours about. But, this characteristic can be changed according to the type of road.

With batteries capacity of 36Ah, and with Charger IMPIRA 10A, we need 3 hours and half to charge the chair.

This means that we can achieve up to two complete cycles of charge and discharge per day.

I know that this info is very theoretical but this can explain a little how the chair can be run.
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Re: a Lifestand LSC battery life problems

Postby Burgerman » 22 May 2010, 20:13

Ok where to start...

Your chair uses 4 batteries to get 24v rather than two simply for space reasons. To do all the fancy seating/standing tricks there has to be room for the mechanics to go.

You have 2 sets of 18ah batteries connected in parallel and then in series. Effectively you have a "pair" of 36ah 12v batteries connected in series to give 24v. Which is exactly the same as just having 2x 36Ah batteries in any normal powerchair.

Which is about HALF the capacity required to go "all day" long. Even out 70ah batteries suffer after a busy day. The design of the chair requires that you have small batteries. As such its not really suitable as an all day / outdoor chair.

Second point is that your batteries are great in a stand by generator, or UPS system. Less great in a powerchair. There are about 4 decent batteries that are worth fitting. In your case this is especially important!

Because your chair needs as much "power" as any other chair it needs very very good batteries to be able to supply the current. Gel batteries struggle even when twice that size. AGM batteries such as the Odyssey ones will be better able to cope. But they will not do much for range or battery longevity. Thats down to the design of the chair not allowing large enough batteries to be used. As it is its really only any use indoors on flat surfaces. But these batteries will help on inclines, or thresholds etc. And charge a lot faster.

As far as testing your batteries goes, then then they should all read the same. I presume they are measuring capacity somehow? Best bet, get rid, buy a chair that uses group 34, or group 24 batteries. You need a pair of 70ah batteries, or 4x 35Ah ones to stand up to a day. And the bigger the batteries the longer they last since you discharge them less deeply.

PS i HAVE some batteries here that measure full capacity almost. That does not mean thewy are "good" as they cant propel a powerchair! They went high resistance, cant make big currents.

You need one of these to test them http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/hyperion.htm
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Re: a Lifestand LSC battery life problems

Postby funkykeyboard » 23 May 2010, 17:23

Burgerman wrote:As far as testing your batteries goes, then then they should all read the same. I presume they are measuring capacity somehow? Best bet, get rid, buy a chair that uses group 34, or group 24 batteries. You need a pair of 70ah batteries, or 4x 35Ah ones to stand up to a day. And the bigger the batteries the longer they last since you discharge them less deeply.

PS i HAVE some batteries here that measure full capacity almost. That does not mean thewy are "good" as they cant propel a powerchair! They went high resistance, cant make big currents.

You need one of these to test them http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/hyperion.htm
thanks very much, I do understand why you say I should get rid of. Could you just clarify this bit of a little bit more for me.

I was wondering why there is such a huge discrepancy in the readings, “These batteries have been tested: - 2 ones appear defective 35%, 40%, - 2 others ones are good 87% and 94%”. And was wondering if this is the problem, solution?>

Burgerman wrote:I charge my batteries directly from my vans electrical system one at a time, very fast while out and about. Often! This means that the batteries are regularly "unbalanced" and one is inevitably "higher" than the other. No worries, this charger automatically fixes that at bed time every single night. Its why I bought it.

Manufacturers should supply these as original equipment with your powerchair or scooter. Life is too short for that old slow 5 amp charger! And your batteries will last longer. And you will get more range if the batteries are BOTH fully charged rather than one overcharged and one undercharged.

Burgerman

-------------------------------------------
One thing I did not understand from the above post for sure, is that when you put your batteries are on charge over night, do you do them on two different chargers, or all with this 1 charger whivh automatically switch off a single battery at a time when it is charged?
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Re: a Lifestand LSC battery life problems

Postby Burgerman » 23 May 2010, 20:23

thanks very much, I do understand why you say I should get rid of. Could you just clarify this bit of a little bit more for me.

I was wondering why there is such a huge discrepancy in the readings, “These batteries have been tested: - 2 ones appear defective 35%, 40%, - 2 others ones are good 87% and 94%”. And was wondering if this is the problem, solution?>


Get rid? The chair. The batteries that can fit it are far too small for any type of outdoor use or any sensible performance. So there is no other solution. A brand new set of batteries will not increase range, and will die an early death since they will be discharged far too deeply. Powerchair unsuitable for anything other than indoor use.

I have no idea what they are testing. Presumably capacity. The "good" batteries then are just acceptable. The bad ones are totally unusable.

If you replace them, with 4 new ones you will kill them too unless you use the chair only for indoor duties or short trips outdoors at best. They are too small! And running them down low damages them fast. There is no solution. Different powerchair is your only option with full sized group 34 or 24 batteries.

One thing I did not understand from the above post for sure, is that when you put your batteries are on charge over night, do you do them on two different chargers, or all with this 1 charger whivh automatically switch off a single battery at a time when it is charged?


I use all sorts of specialised chargers. Dont worry about what I do yet!
NORMAL wheelchairs with 2 big batteries use a single charger as you do, which charges them as a string (in series) at 24v.

I personally do odd advanced "charging" things but you dont need to understand that here.

What your chair manufacturer has done is to steal the space required for the big enough batteries to fit your standing/seating option resulting in an unusable outdoor powerchair.
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