Q logic/Curtis Cable end

[laoshanren]

Somewhere there seems to be a sensor that is telling the chair that the seat is up even when its not. You will have to find that sensor, figure out what it is, and find out how to either fix it or get the system to ignore it. Programming software may allow you to tell the system to ignore the sensor(s).

Hi LROBBINS thanks,

There are two limit switch in two ends of the linear actuators, just cut off when the movement to the ends.
I didn't see ant sensor, and there do not have any wires for them.

Best
Adam

[Burgerman]

Many systems sens end travel by monitoring current to detect end points too. Adjustable in programming. And while the actuator may have end point detection that does not rule out a magnetic, or other sensor on the seating mechanism too.

[laoshanren]

Many systems sens end travel by monitoring current to detect end points too. Adjustable in programming. And while the actuator may have end point detection that does not rule out a magnetic, or other sensor on the seating mechanism too.

Hi Burgerman thanks

I did more test, let the linear actuator both TILT and Recline go to the end, and shift their port [because the joystick only works one way] and go to the other end, it did, and still red light on.
When the linear actuator go to the end stop there, I can hear the switch click.

I bought another Q6 edge yesterday, so now, can I just use the joystick from the now chair on my old? where is the program stored ? in joystick or in the power module?

Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

Hi,
The new bought Q6 edge has a new problem, error code #225 see picture,
can any one tell how to : Execute Save System Configuration function?
Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

This post is purely to help anyone searching the forum..

Q-Logic and Curtis discussion has moved threads.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1965&start=100#p26123

For those that want a mobility scooter serial interface ....

KPG4 OK.JPG

Hi woodygb thanks,
May I take a shortcut, I made a connector like the picture:
1. whats the other end should do, soldering to a USB? or need use the IC1 MAX 232?
2. what software should I use? or any thing else ?

Best
Adam

All you need is one of these ..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-CAN-USB-to- ... 0899053368
AND the DLL from this link.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=340#p73389

FOLLOW THIS GUIDE.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757

NOTE THAT THERE APPEARS TO BE 2 TYPES OF THIS CAN

Some info for you here on the newer USB-CAN...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=340#p73334

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=360#p87375


Cheers Woody

Hi woodygb thanks
Some body said the program need a dangle or it just can do little work, it that true?
Thanks
Adam

[laoshanren]

Many systems sens end travel by monitoring current to detect end points too. Adjustable in programming. And while the actuator may have end point detection that does not rule out a magnetic, or other sensor on the seating mechanism too.

Hi Burgerman thanks
Please help me at:
1. where the program stored, power module / advanced actuators module / joystick?
2. what the 'advanced actuators module' mean? just a name or some thing advanced?
3. is it true on wheelchair, the user can't much except operate, any error must call service?
Best
Adam

[LROBBINS]

A chair user can check all the cables and connectors - contacts clean and not burned, all wires showing connectivity with an ohmmeter. It is sometimes possible to diagnose electronics problems by reading the flash codes (the chair's manual should explain them, and a technical manual may also be downloadable). A programmer can give some more diagnostic help because it shows more detail.

Repairs internal to the electronics modules are difficult because no one except the manufacturer has the schematics. Technicians will just swap modules, too often without doing any diagnosis at all before this, until they find the one that failed.

The AAM is a module that controls your seat actuators in response to commands from the rest of the system. If you trace all the wires going form the AAM you may be able to locate the position sensors.

I think that P&G stores the main program in the power module, and know that Dynamic stores it in the handset and only stores motor-specific parameters in the power module. Dynamic DX actually stores backup copies of everything in both of those modules to help restore things if something gets corrupted and to make it easier to program a new module with the copy of the user-tuned parameters in the other one. Do note that the modules are connected as a network and it doesn't matter where you plug in a programmer or programming lead - it will read all settings no matter where they are stored.

Unless you are a very sophisticated hacker, however, don't expect to be able to decipher the messages on that network; those messages are proprietary. The only protocol that has been pretty completely cracked is for the Dynamic Shark, but that is a simpler set of messages and simpler signal structure than in most systems. Also, do realize that what you can read and or set with a programmer are user parameters - you are not going to have access to the program that runs the microprocessor. Oh, someone might be able to read the binary code, but without the source files what good will that do if your not part of a government cyber espionage agency? To change that core program (sometimes called "firmware") you'd need the source code and the same compiler, linker and tool chain that was used to create it in the first place.

[laoshanren]

A chair user can check all the cables and connectors - contacts clean and not burned, all wires showing connectivity with an ohmmeter. It is sometimes possible to diagnose electronics problems by reading the flash codes (the chair's manual should explain them, and a technical manual may also be downloadable). A programmer can give some more diagnostic help because it shows more detail.

Repairs internal to the electronics modules are difficult because no one except the manufacturer has the schematics. Technicians will just swap modules, too often without doing any diagnosis at all before this, until they find the one that failed.

The AAM is a module that controls your seat actuators in response to commands from the rest of the system. If you trace all the wires going form the AAM you may be able to locate the position sensors.

I think that P&G stores the main program in the power module, and know that Dynamic stores it in the handset and only stores motor-specific parameters in the power module. Dynamic DX actually stores backup copies of everything in both of those modules to help restore things if something gets corrupted and to make it easier to program a new module with the copy of the user-tuned parameters in the other one. Do note that the modules are connected as a network and it doesn't matter where you plug in a programmer or programming lead - it will read all settings no matter where they are stored.

Unless you are a very sophisticated hacker, however, don't expect to be able to decipher the messages on that network; those messages are proprietary. The only protocol that has been pretty completely cracked is for the Dynamic Shark, but that is a simpler set of messages and simpler signal structure than in most systems. Also, do realize that what you can read and or set with a programmer are user parameters - you are not going to have access to the program that runs the microprocessor. Oh, someone might be able to read the binary code, but without the source files what good will that do if your not part of a government cyber espionage agency? To change that core program (sometimes called "firmware") you'd need the source code and the same compiler, linker and tool chain that was used to create it in the first place.

Hi LROBBINS thanks

Firstly I would claim that I don't want to do any decipher or hacker any thing. actually I don't know much about it things.
All I need is to let my chair work. The reason I asked where the program stored is I am trying to buy that module to replace my existing one to make my chair running.

I call the local service, seems their busy and no time for me. I just stuck here, I don't if I buy my third chair can be OK?
Best
Adam

[LROBBINS]

(1) You don't actually know that the program is bad. (2) You could have a bad position sensor, wire, or connector. (3) Changing the module that has the program will also probably give you a differently set up program - you will still have to use a programmer to adjust the settings to your needs, (4) a bad module that doesn't contain the program will also cause problems - a bad AAM for exsample. You really need to do some diagnosis an try to find out what is actually faulty.

[laoshanren]

(1) You don't actually know that the program is bad. (2) You could have a bad position sensor, wire, or connector. (3) Changing the module that has the program will also probably give you a differently set up program - you will still have to use a programmer to adjust the settings to your needs, (4) a bad module that doesn't contain the program will also cause problems - a bad AAM for exsample. You really need to do some diagnosis an try to find out what is actually faulty.

Hi LROBBINS thanks,

You are right, I don't know whats wrong, program? bad position of sensor? I checked wires and connectors, didn't find any evidence.
I don't even think the program wrong, so in my opinion the bad position of sensor is probably the reason, is the reprogram the only method to solve it?

I didn't find any sensor, if there are some kind of sensor build in, where can be? power module or AAW?

Best
Adam

[Burgerman]

You are going to need another person to help, that has some knowledge and a good multimeter. It is going to need some deductive powers. And you will find out what is wrong by careful testing. But judging by your questions and obvious unfamiliarity I suspect you will need a dealer to investigate it.

I would get my carer to take off actuators etc and test/measure them on my bench (my bed!). And do the same with position sensors, motors, etc. And be sure they were positioned correctly. And check cables by multimeter and by substitution. And after that change actuator module to see if that was the issue. If needed I would test the whole system all together on the bench, and try to figure out where the issue is. Including looking for faults on loom, motors, freewheel, brake, and error messages in the programming.

[laoshanren]

You are going to need another person to help, that has some knowledge and a good multimeter. It is going to need some deductive powers. And you will find out what is wrong by careful testing. But judging by your questions and obvious unfamiliarity I suspect you will need a dealer to investigate it.

I would get my carer to take off actuators etc and test/measure them on my bench (my bed!). And do the same with position sensors, motors, etc. And be sure they were positioned correctly. And check cables by multimeter and by substitution. And after that change actuator module to see if that was the issue. If needed I would test the whole system all together on the bench, and try to figure out where the issue is. Including looking for faults on loom, motors, freewheel, brake, and error messages in the programming.

Hi Burgerman thanks

I did call the dealer and they ref, me a technician and who want to make me appointment next and next.
Some body tell me if I do program can solve this problem, my USB - CAN is on the way.
Now I opened the power module, can you take a look if any sensor in there?
Can I just take out the small battery?
Best
Adam

[LROBBINS]

The position sensor(s) is (are) somewhere, almost anywhere, on the seat assembly, not IN any of the modules. Sensor(s) will be connected to one of the modules (probably the AAM) by a cable. If you have a bad component, no amount of programming will fix it, but you may be able to program the chair to IGNORE the inhibit.

[Burgerman]

Do not remove battery! It keeps memory alive maybe, but could just be clock. No idea. But it wont help. You cant just randomly assume a module if bad, and its unlikely to be that anyway.

[laoshanren]

The position sensor(s) is (are) somewhere, almost anywhere, on the seat assembly, not IN any of the modules. Sensor(s) will be connected to one of the modules (probably the AAM) by a cable. If you have a bad component, no amount of programming will fix it, but you may be able to program the chair to IGNORE the inhibit.

Hi LROBBINS thanks

I didn't find any sensor and cable.
possibly the program calculate the linear actuator running time to get the position?
'IGNORE' is good idea.

Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

Do not remove battery! It keeps memory alive maybe, but could just be clock. No idea. But it wont help. You cant just randomly assume a module if bad, and its unlikely to be that anyway.

Hi Burgerman thanks

can you guess what can be the reason, when I do the back tilt and recline , why the joystick only works one way, forward ok , nothing happened backward.

Best
Adam

[LROBBINS]

I'll take a stab at that last question. The most common way that end-of-travel switches work is that there's one for extended limit and one for retracted limit. They are normally closed and when pressed by a cam on the actuator the contacts open. Each one has a diode in parallel with the switch, however, so that even though the circuit is interrupted in one direction, it is bypassed in the other direction. So, for example, if the "extend" limit switch is pressed, it will not allow any more current to flow in the extend sense, but the diode will let current pass in the retract sense. If a diode has failed so that it no longer conducts, if you reach that limit you can't go back. Is that what your chair does? If it is, there's probably a bad diode. Oftentimes the switches and diodes are actually inside the actuator, so can be a bit of a pain to repair - but it can be done.

I very much doubt that the controller uses time to infer position. If the actuator has an encoder, it can count pulses of the encoder to know position, but then there'd still be wires connecting it to the control module. I've never seen this on a chair, but it's also possible to have position sensors inside the actuator. I think that there was also at least one chair that used a potentiometer that was moved by the seat to give position information. In any case, a thing to check is how many wires are in the cable that connects the actuator to the electronics. If there are more than two wires, there's something more than just a motor (and possibly internal limit switches) inside the actuator.

[laoshanren]

I'll take a stab at that last question. The most common way that end-of-travel switches work is that there's one for extended limit and one for retracted limit. They are normally closed and when pressed by a cam on the actuator the contacts open. Each one has a diode in parallel with the switch, however, so that even though the circuit is interrupted in one direction, it is bypassed in the other direction. So, for example, if the "extend" limit switch is pressed, it will not allow any more current to flow in the extend sense, but the diode will let current pass in the retract sense. If a diode has failed so that it no longer conducts, if you reach that limit you can't go back. Is that what your chair does? If it is, there's probably a bad diode. Oftentimes the switches and diodes are actually inside the actuator, so can be a bit of a pain to repair - but it can be done.

I very much doubt that the controller uses time to infer position. If the actuator has an encoder, it can count pulses of the encoder to know position, but then there'd still be wires connecting it to the control module. I've never seen this on a chair, but it's also possible to have position sensors inside the actuator. I think that there was also at least one chair that used a potentiometer that was moved by the seat to give position information. In any case, a thing to check is how many wires are in the cable that connects the actuator to the electronics. If there are more than two wires, there's something more than just a motor (and possibly internal limit switches) inside the actuator.

Hi LROBBINS thanks

This make sense. actually　Burgerman　mentioned that on Oct. 24.

I guess the reason to result this status is because I disconnected the cables when the chair sit in a tilt position, because I have disassembly it to unload from my trunk, at least my second chair should be.

Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

This post is purely to help anyone searching the forum..

Q-Logic and Curtis discussion has moved threads.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1965&start=100#p26123

For those that want a mobility scooter serial interface ....

KPG4 OK.JPG

Hi woodygb thanks,
May I take a shortcut, I made a connector like the picture:
1. whats the other end should do, soldering to a USB? or need use the IC1 MAX 232?
2. what software should I use? or any thing else ?

Best
Adam

All you need is one of these ..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-CAN-USB-to- ... 0899053368
AND the DLL from this link.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=340#p73389

FOLLOW THIS GUIDE.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757

NOTE THAT THERE APPEARS TO BE 2 TYPES OF THIS CAN

Some info for you here on the newer USB-CAN...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=340#p73334

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2757&start=360#p87375


Cheers Woody

Hi woodygb thanks

I have ordered the USB-CAN, still on the way.
I found a piece of USB - TTL, can I use it instead?

https://www.amazon.ca/USB-UART-Module-S ... ttl+module

Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

There are two connectors go to motor, the large one can be main power, but why 4 conducts? the small connector should be for the brake?
Thanks for help.
Adam

[LROBBINS]

Yes. Two larger wires = motor, two smaller wires = parking brake.

[laoshanren]

Yes. Two larger wires = motor, two smaller wires = parking brake.

Hi LROBBINS thanks
There are two connector all go to motor, the large connector has 4 conducts [2 big ] / [2 small], do you mean the [2 big ] for motor, and the [2 small] for brake?

What the small connector for then?

Best
Adam

[woodygb]

IMO.

It LOOKS like multiple connections... BUT IT'S NOT... A blade slides between the ( 4 ) contacts.

Each end in your pic is A SINGLE CONNECTION ... the middle is just 2 connections.




http://www.terminalcn.com/products.asp?sortid=2

[laoshanren]

IMO.

It LOOKS like multiple connections... BUT IT'S NOT... A blade slides between the ( 4 ) contacts.

Each end in your pic is A SINGLE CONNECTION ... the middle is just 2 connections.




http://www.terminalcn.com/products.asp?sortid=2

Hi "woodygb thanks,
if right, these can explain the LARGE picture, two ends conducts for motor, and the middle for brake. There is still a SMALL plug goes to motor, I'll attach it again here, do you know what this for?
Best
Adam

[laoshanren]

The attached picture shown the cables connected to motor which I named them LARGE and SMALL total two cables go to each motor. anyone know what the small cable does?

[Burgerman]

Thers 6 possible wires coming from a wheelchair motor.

Always used - two big power wires to drive the motor.
Almost always used - 2 thin wires to release the brake and allow you to drive.
And very occasionaly a shaft encoder, 2 wires or occasionally 3, for an encoder. This tells the controller if the chair is going straight, turning etc. Used on some speciality controls for those that struggle with normal joystick controls. It is a feedback system for the motor/controller.

[laoshanren]

Thers 6 possible wires coming from a wheelchair motor.

Always used - two big power wires to drive the motor.
Almost always used - 2 thin wires to release the brake and allow you to drive.
And very occasionaly a shaft encoder, 2 wires or occasionally 3, for an encoder. This tells the controller if the chair is going straight, turning etc. Used on some speciality controls for those that struggle with normal joystick controls. It is a feedback system for the motor/controller.

Thanks Burgerman,
Few more questions:
1. Is the brake used 24vdc same as motor? and can I control the motor and brake together, I mean use one relay?
2. for my project, I don't need care about the straight moving or not, if I ignore the feedback cable, can the chair keep running with what I operate it?
Best
Adam

[Burgerman]

Brake may be 12 or 24. Dont get it wrong because either way causes damage.

and can I control the motor and brake together, I mean use one relay?

That sentence makes no sense to me!

What do you operate it with?
A powerchair controller and power module normally.

[laoshanren]

Brake may be 12 or 24. Dont get it wrong because either way causes damage.

and can I control the motor and brake together, I mean use one relay?

That sentence makes no sense to me!

What do you operate it with?
A powerchair controller and power module normally.

Hi Burgerman thanks

I mean if I do test the motor separately without the control module, can I just hook the motor and brake together? as I understood the brake power on release, right?
Best
Adam

[Burgerman]

As long as you dont feed the brake 24v and it is a 12v brake, as it will burn out. And as long as you dont feed 12v to a 24v brake as it will will not realease properly and will rear out the friction surfaces fast. You also really should limit current somehow too as the starting current will be 150 to 200A INITIALLY as it begins to turn. Maybe a couple of headlamp bulbs in parallel, and in series with the motor, but not the brake.