PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

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Re: DIY PGDT interface for OEM PROGRAMMING

Postby Burgerman » 13 Oct 2017, 21:31

What for? Everyone didnt know or recognise what they are looking at or familiar with once!
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Re: DIY PGDT interface for OEM PROGRAMMING

Postby woodygb » 13 Oct 2017, 22:00

Note that I can supply the leads should you wish.

If your in Denmark you have a branch of Mouser.

https://www.mouser.dk/ftdi/
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Re: DIY PGDT interface for OEM PROGRAMMING

Postby Schultz5905 » 22 Oct 2017, 20:01

Does the cable from the U.K. in the original posts still work?
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Re: DIY PGDT interface for OEM PROGRAMMING

Postby woodygb » 22 Oct 2017, 22:35

Schultz5905 wrote:Does the cable from the U.K. in the original posts still work?


Do you mean the KPG lead ? ...in which case the answer is mostly but not always.... seems to depend on the chinese supplier of the U.K. vendor.

Hence my recommendation of the Specific FTDI Lead listed above.
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Re: DIY PGDT interface for OEM PROGRAMMING

Postby ArfurMo » 23 Oct 2017, 16:34

Hi all,
I'm new to the whole board and I got here because I am mainly interested in re-programming my SDrive powered scooter (will be ordering a lead from WoodyGB v. soon). So far I've been reading this thread from the beginning and I'm up to spring 2013. I'm not bad with PCs (35 years' experience and started on a mainframe) and I can confirm most of the advice re finding a spare comm port is right. However there is something even more basic to check before condemning the cables or software.

I have found no mention of the fact that many modern PCs or laptops have a setting in the BIOS which switches off the serial port (The old wide RS232C one). Usually you press F1 to get into BIOS as the machine starts up. Some makes use Del or F12. Find the serial port settings and obviously change it to "On". It's not really just the port that your switching on, it's that entire comms system, ie all the electronics behind the port, so it could sort out all your comms error messages in one fell swoop.

While in the BIOS, it would do no harm to also check that ALL your USB ports are activated. Some could be switched off. If some work better than others, it's probable that they are nearer to the power supply. Usually, the USB ports in pairs can handle more power than the single ones, as the bus does not have to cross the entire mainboard.
You can easily find Y splitters cables, ie two male USB plugs connected to one female socket. This gives you the same 5 volts output but potentially, no pun intended, twice the amperage if you need it to make the control cables work. These Y cables sometimes help with big external hard drives or other kit that needs more amperage than one USB socket can handle.
A good USB socket should work fine however with these control cables as they do not need much juice.

After changing BIOS settings, you usually have to press F10 to save your changes. Then you will exit the BIOS and the machine should boot as normal. Just a warning. Don't change any other BIOS settings you do not understand. You could make the whole PC unstable. But there's no need to be frightened to make the changes I suggest. Just take a little care.

If you don't know what the BIOS is, RTFM, or look it up on the interweblies. Hope this helps a few of you at least.
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Re: DIY PGDT interface for OEM PROGRAMMING

Postby Burgerman » 24 Oct 2017, 02:01

I have found no mention of the fact that many modern PCs or laptops have a setting in the BIOS which switches off the serial port (The old wide RS232C one).


Its actually the other way around. Modern PCs, and modern laptops have no physical serial ports(s) as such, those are old legacy devices. Switching one off is then not an option in most cases as non exist. When a motherbord on a modern PC does actually have a physical serial header, (and usually nobody fits a actual port on the rear) and most have not had this for a decade, its seldom used.

My newest board does unusually have a RS232 header. So disabling this in the bios allows one extra unused serial port (header) to be gone out of windows. Leaving less chance of it being in the way when adding USB / Serial adapters in windows. It leaves more available resourses with this off.
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Re: DIY PGDT interface for OEM PROGRAMMING

Postby Schultz5905 » 24 Oct 2017, 07:06

I hope the cable will emulate the serial port because my new laptop does not have bios for parallel ports or serial ports.
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Re: DIY PGDT interface for OEM PROGRAMMING

Postby Burgerman » 24 Oct 2017, 10:43

It does. Thats the whole point.
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Re: DIY PGDT interface for OEM PROGRAMMING

Postby BulldozerDK » 31 Oct 2017, 23:06

woodygb wrote:Note that I can supply the leads should you wish.

If your in Denmark you have a branch of Mouser.

https://www.mouser.dk/ftdi/


Sorry, did not see that reply until now.

I managed to get the FTDI adaptor from a guy in UK selling on Ebay, while ordering the diodes from Germany and having the resistor in stock anyway.

And it worked, I managed to fix quite a few issues that we have had over the past. Thank you very much!

Thanks though! - What is your price for future reference?


----

On another note, I can see that a lot of people(including myself) is getting lost in this section asking a lot the same questions because it does not seem 100% transparent for outsiders.

Will I be blacklisted if I create a couple of new threads named after the controller modelnumbers and not just some "common name" for them?

After the solution that I have collected in my above post I have the next questions here, How do I program my Dynamic Rhino controller. - I can find a lot of info on "Rhyno", "Rhino 2" or simply just "Rhino" controllers, but I dont think any of those matches the controllers that I have lying around.
Would it make sense to have 1 thread per controller with a guide on how to make the connector, which software to use, and how to get it and then let it be place for people to search for their exact controller model and seek information/ask questions?
It would have helped me a lot if this could be done.


I now have questions like such;

For the Dynamic Rhino DS112K01:

I managed to find a scheme that told me to solder a regular USB->RS232 to match a S-VHS(Hirose) 5-pin connector. The drawing did not show which side the plug was to be seen from so I might have soldered it the wrong way. - Is there a drawing/manual for soldering this connector out there somewhere? If not, would it be an idea if I did one when I have figured out how it is done?

Would the same software as for the PG Drives Solo D50052/6 or would I need to find some other software, and in that case can I get the software the same way as I got the first set? :)

Can anyone provide a connecting plan and/or schematics for the DS112K01?


As for the Solo D50052/6:

Has anyone experienced that the engine driver/solenoid brake suddenly stops working. Everything else works fine but from one second to another it would stop working. I have experienced it with two controllers mounted in the same test board I have a feeling that a resistor mounted in place of the solenoid brake was causing the issue as this was on 30R and 20W instead of the nominel 50R.

Does anyone know how to get the exact connectors? I know that a regular dupont connector will almost fit, but I would like to know if it is possible to get the exact ones?




- I know all of the above is a lot to ask and I think this will just confuse in this thread, would it make sense to put the questions into threads with only the modelname as headline?


I really need answers to the questions with the programming of the DS112K01 :)
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby LROBBINS » 31 Oct 2017, 23:31

Dynamic controllers will NOT use the same programming software as P&G. I've worked with Dynamic DX but never the Rhino, and I don't know if anyone lese here has either, so haven't any specific advice to offer. Your first step is probably to go to the Dynamic web site and download all of the manuals - installation, technical, user (whatever is there) for the Rhino. The wiring and programming methods should probably be the same for all variants of the Rhino system. I don't know if the dongle-less software that John has gotten a hold of for Dynamic DX will work with the Rhyno, nor whether the Wizard software works for the Rhino as well as the DX, but the manuals should tell you what you'll need.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 01 Nov 2017, 00:08

Here you go......

dynamic hirose interface rhino sm.jpg
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 01 Nov 2017, 00:24

Leads for programming the Penny and Giles range are £25 plus postage for each type .... or £25 for the Male 3 pin Neutrik / XLR Wheelchair programming lead and £10 for an additional plug type that simply attaches via a Female 3 Pin Neutrik/XLR.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 01 Nov 2017, 00:43

As for the Solo D50052/6:

Has anyone experienced that the engine driver/solenoid brake suddenly stops working. Everything else works fine but from one second to another it would stop working. I have experienced it with two controllers mounted in the same test board I have a feeling that a resistor mounted in place of the solenoid brake was causing the issue as this was on 30R and 20W instead of the nominel 50R.





The controller software doesn't seem to care much about a correct resistance value as it's usually just checking for an open circuit.

I use a 24v relay ....this gives an audible indication of the brakes being set or released....if you use one with a clear case you'll also get a visual indication .

A low wattage 24v bulb should also work instead of a resistor.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby BulldozerDK » 01 Nov 2017, 00:47

LROBBINS wrote:Dynamic controllers will NOT use the same programming software as P&G. I've worked with Dynamic DX but never the Rhino, and I don't know if anyone lese here has either, so haven't any specific advice to offer. Your first step is probably to go to the Dynamic web site and download all of the manuals - installation, technical, user (whatever is there) for the Rhino. The wiring and programming methods should probably be the same for all variants of the Rhino system. I don't know if the dongle-less software that John has gotten a hold of for Dynamic DX will work with the Rhyno, nor whether the Wizard software works for the Rhino as well as the DX, but the manuals should tell you what you'll need.



I already went through (most) of the pages in the manual from the webpage. - Some info I will save for when I have a working connection.

I actually managed to get hold of the software needed. - Not the same as the PG software of course.


I just have to test it out if it works how I understood the schematics for the connector.


I find it funny how some controllers seems to be the only ones that actually are being used for all the models in my country while it seem to be a completely different set of controllers used in different countries.

most of the controllers I see are the (a few)Solo Drives 60 Amp and (like 90%) 130 Amp very few Egis and then once in a while you'll find different models I do not know of in off brand scooters/wheelchairs.
- that is the case even though the brands are not solely for my country.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby BulldozerDK » 01 Nov 2017, 00:51

woodygb wrote:The controller software doesn't seem to care much about a correct resistance value as it's usually just checking for an open circuit.

I use a 24v relay ....this gives an audible indication of the brakes being set or released....if you use one with a clear case you'll also get a visual indication .

A low wattage 24v bulb should also work instead of a resistor.


I did not want to try just using some small usage device, I just see a lot of power being consumed in the heating of the 20w resistor, but that is of course a given if it is just sitting there using that much power for no reason at all.

I have mounted a small LED to give me the visual indication while the relay in the controller it self provides a clicking sound.

Maybe I should just give it a go, I think I will go for the relay solution. - That could be used for something else as well. - Thanks for the great Idea!
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 01 Nov 2017, 00:57

The PGDT mobility software ...as I recall ...gives access to the EGIS .

I'm NOT SURE ...but the relay that your hearing inside the controller may not be anything to do with the parking brakes .
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby LROBBINS » 01 Nov 2017, 09:38

Dynamic controllers at least, and I suppose some others, have a relay inside the power module that disconnects power AFTER the chair has come to a stop and reconnects it as soon as you push the stick. That is the click you are hearing. You might want to put a voltmeter on the brake leads to see what it shows when you think it's not working right. If it does not go to 24V when you push the stick, you definitely have a problem as the brake(s) will be dragging.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby gcebiker » 01 Nov 2017, 13:34

Isn't the click the actual brakes ?

Its the electromagnet sliding back and releasing the pressure on the 'clutch' type brake on ( all ? ) power chairs and mobility scooters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59DNyGYkW3A

If your brakes are jamming, check that the three ball bearings are still in place, these hold the solenoid in the right place.

One of the spacer bearings often fall out (they sit under the plate that moves when you move the engage/disengage brake lever)
When one or more fall out, the solenoid inside the brake jams at an angle inside the cylinder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrYaTZxsdxQ

Yes the Dynamic Dongle less soft ware works with Rhino controllers...works with all the stuff that uses the Wizard program.

Sorry Ive not been to active of late and missed this earlier.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 01 Nov 2017, 13:42

On many controllers there is an internal relay that does as Len describes....and it wouldn't really be audible unless your bench testing and listening for a click.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby gcebiker » 01 Nov 2017, 13:43

As to chairs going randomly CLICK, CLICK, CLICK ...especially when cold / first turned on.

Its usually a worn capacitor inside the joystick, one of the tiny ones, smoothing the supply power to the chip set inside.

Costs pennies to fix but not obvious at first look.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby gcebiker » 01 Nov 2017, 13:47

Ok they look like completely separate bits, i better explain my self i guess.

The joystick is sending the signal to the controller and it to the motor (disengaging the brakes and you will hear a click)

Randomly, it will click and stop (you may have to power cycle the joystick module to get it to restart).
The failing power supply - to the micro controller, inside the joystick. Causes the controller to 'browns out' and it will cycles off or the serial data gets corrupted enough that
the Power module goes into error mode and shuts the chair down. Again , the brake will click as they reengage.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 01 Nov 2017, 13:51

I managed to find a scheme that told me to solder a regular USB->RS232 to match a S-VHS(Hirose) 5-pin connector. The drawing did not show which side the plug was to be seen from so I might have soldered it the wrong way. - Is there a drawing/manual for soldering this connector out there somewhere? If not, would it be an idea if I did one when I have figured out how it is done?


Does this help.... I'm fairly sure that I've drawn it correctly.
HIROSE DB9.jpg
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby BulldozerDK » 01 Nov 2017, 23:30

At least for the Solo drives the relay inside it is the activating/deactivating the Solenoid brake mounted on the back of the motor.

There is only this one relay in the solo driver and it is for the solenoid brake, at least in the scooters I've been around it is very audible, also in regular use.
the joystick managed chairs I have have only been for scrapping until now(have a working example coming in at some point soon though). So I do not know how they are different from the regular scooters I've been around.

Oh, and the motors cannot run if the solenoid brake is enabled, they are simply not powerfull enough.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby BulldozerDK » 01 Nov 2017, 23:35

woodygb wrote:
I managed to find a scheme that told me to solder a regular USB->RS232 to match a S-VHS(Hirose) 5-pin connector. The drawing did not show which side the plug was to be seen from so I might have soldered it the wrong way. - Is there a drawing/manual for soldering this connector out there somewhere? If not, would it be an idea if I did one when I have figured out how it is done?


Does this help.... I'm fairly sure that I've drawn it correctly.
The attachment HIROSE DB9.jpg is no longer available


That helps a lot, I only had this in different versions to go from:

Skærmbillede 2017-11-01 kl. 23.33.07.png


I "saw" the connector from the wrong side when soldering


I will try to assemble this first thing in the morning.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 02 Nov 2017, 00:29

BulldozerDK wrote:At least for the Solo drives the relay inside it is the activating/deactivating the Solenoid brake mounted on the back of the motor.

There is only this one relay in the solo driver and it is for the solenoid brake, at least in the scooters I've been around it is very audible, also in regular use.
the joystick managed chairs I have have only been for scrapping until now(have a working example coming in at some point soon though). So I do not know how they are different from the regular scooters I've been around.

Oh, and the motors cannot run if the solenoid brake is enabled, they are simply not powerfull enough.


It's a 12v 70 Amp relay!! ...why would it be used for brakes that take around 1 amp?

Oh well ... We will just have to agree to disagree.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 02 Nov 2017, 01:12

At least for the Solo drives the relay inside it is the activating/deactivating the Solenoid brake mounted on the back of the motor.

Thats done wiuth a small chip. The relay is there to remove battery power from the controller in the event of a fault.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 02 Nov 2017, 01:16

I THINK that it might be a pre-charge relay for the caps....not sure.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 02 Nov 2017, 18:35

Not judging by the huge spark that you get when connecting a new battery!
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Jer » 05 Nov 2017, 16:09

Hi im new here trying to program a vsi controller with an xlr connector
I ordered what appeared to be a kenmax kgp-4 cable
It is a 6 pin connector cable yet when chopping off the end i only three see wires
Red white and black
Did i just waste my money on this cable or i still use it some how
All the other threads refer to green wire which i do not have
Any help on this would be appreciated

Thanks
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 05 Nov 2017, 17:03

HOPEFULLY the White is a combined TX and RX ... so try this configuration.

BLACK to Pin 2 of the XLR and WHITE to Pin 3 of the XLR....ignore the RED.

You could also "pop" the case open and have a look at the connections inside ....they are usually marked.
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