PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 12 Feb 2020, 23:57

No doubt! We all do. I am lucky I have normal hands. And many other issues. I cant even imagine driving with a foot. Although I suppose I used to do just that in cars, bikes, and I used to fly sailplaines. Lots of feet correction on rudder there, because of a thing called adverse yaw. Dont ask.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Irving » 13 Feb 2020, 10:35

i have virtually no hand function. I used to use a T-bar on the DX controller but that made my wrist ache. With the R-Net controller the standard joystick 'bulb' shape works better; I wedge it up against the web between index & middle fingers and that's a tight enough fit to give me fine control through wrist action. To go backwards I rest my palm on top of the joystick.

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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 13 Feb 2020, 10:38

Do you do better with totally linear control, all 4 turn accelerations / decelerations settings set at 100? Or with less than 100 and losing the linear turn control?
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby steves1977uk » 13 Feb 2020, 11:55

For me I have accelerations set to 70 and decelerations set to 100 on chairs with 4-pole motors and motor comp set to 40. On 2-pole chairs, accelerations and decelerations are set to 100 and motor comp set between 70-80.

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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Irving » 13 Feb 2020, 20:01

Burgerman wrote:Do you do better with totally linear control, all 4 turn accelerations / decelerations settings set at 100? Or with less than 100 and losing the linear turn control?
From memory,not having programmer or file to hand, I think i settled on 90 or 95 as best fit. IIRC 100 was a bit too aggressive and i did have caster shake issue which were causing directional oscillations so backing it off from 100 made it just a little more pliable. But i've not really experimented much, will be easier when i can do it on the fly from my phone!
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Feb 2020, 00:13

So even those with almost no hand dexterity, or those driving with a foor or an elbow prefer the very low delays and are using 90 or 95 or 100 as turn acceleration, turn deceleration settings.

Obviously its better for those of us that have normal hand and coordination etc.

So please tell me. Really. I would absolutely LOVE to know. Why every last powerchair has the stupid turn acceleration, turn deceleration, and even more inportant, the minimum turn acc and dec settings set to anything from 5 to a absolute max of 35 or 40??? Those types of setting make every single chair out there for decades, totally undrivable by any sane person. Yes you can suffer it, and get about And you can slow right down to be sure you dont hit door frames etc as much. But its completely frustrating, its really actually dangerous! Why?

* Ignoring front drive. These need either a slow delayed steering setup or a user that is always trying to correct the issues manually to work at all. So they will never be good.

So why? What gives?
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby LROBBINS » 14 Feb 2020, 09:33

Ignoring front drive. These need either a slow delayed steering setup or a user that is always trying to correct the issues manually to work at all. So they will never be good.

Rachi's chair is FWD with 30+% of weight on the rear casters - about the worst possible setup for lateral stability. It also has no gyro. Nevertheless, up to about 5 mph (and I don't know about more than that because I can't walk that fast holding on to the attendant joystick) it tracks true. It did not when it had the original grossly underpowered motors so that Motor Compensation worked marginally and only at low speed. It also had narrow drive tires, bad caster stem bearings, crap caster tires etc. With motors that have lots of reserve, a high current controller, wide low-pressure drive tires, and relatively large treadless, nearly square profile caster tires it's truly a different beast.

Obviously, you can't change the physics of the situation - FWD (like a tail-dragger airplane) is intrinsically laterally unstable, but properly set up, and not being a speed demon, one can make it work. It's also nice to be able to climb a 10 cm curb (if it doesn't have a sharp square edge). Nevertheless, the next chair will probably be RWD.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby steves1977uk » 14 Feb 2020, 12:06

So even those with almost no hand dexterity, or those driving with a foor or an elbow prefer the very low delays and are using 90 or 95 or 100 as turn acceleration, turn deceleration settings.

Obviously its better for those of us that have normal hand and coordination etc.

So please tell me. Really. I would absolutely LOVE to know. Why every last powerchair has the stupid turn acceleration, turn deceleration, and even more inportant, the minimum turn acc and dec settings set to anything from 5 to a absolute max of 35 or 40??? Those types of setting make every single chair out there for decades, totally undrivable by any sane person. Yes you can suffer it, and get about And you can slow right down to be sure you dont hit door frames etc as much. But its completely frustrating, its really actually dangerous! Why?

* Ignoring front drive. These need either a slow delayed steering setup or a user that is always trying to correct the issues manually to work at all. So they will never be good.

So why? What gives?


Guess it's to suit the users who have jerky hands, although that would be a very low percentage of powerchair users. Personally I could never drive a stock programmed chair ever again as it would annoy me and feel very wrong.

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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby 7Gluk » 14 Feb 2020, 15:04

steves1977uk wrote:Guess it's to suit the users who have jerky hands, although that would be a very low percentage of powerchair users.

Definitely not for them. I have hyperkinesis, and turning delay only complicates the WC control. Another algorithm is needed for compensate of jerking hands.
And there are a lot of such people among cerebral palsy from birth.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Feb 2020, 15:57

You just need direct linear accurate control. But with damping setting set quite high. Normal setting should be zero.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby steves1977uk » 14 Feb 2020, 16:17

7Gluk wrote:
steves1977uk wrote:Guess it's to suit the users who have jerky hands, although that would be a very low percentage of powerchair users.

Definitely not for them. I have hyperkinesis, and turning delay only complicates the WC control. Another algorithm is needed for compensate of jerking hands.
And there are a lot of such people among cerebral palsy from birth.


I was born with severe athetoid cerebral palsy, so do suffer from unwanted movements in my arms and legs at times. But any delays in the controls makes it more difficult to steer a chair, which the people at WCS don't understand due to their lack of knowledge on powerchairs.

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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby 7Gluk » 14 Feb 2020, 17:32

steves1977uk wrote:I was born with severe athetoid cerebral palsy, so do suffer from unwanted movements in my arms and legs at times. But any delays in the controls makes it more difficult to steer a chair, which the people at WCS don't understand due to their lack of knowledge on powerchairs.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Feb 2020, 21:57

So WHY is it that EVERY powerchair comes with these damned settings that make them so damned frustrating to use?

Isnt it about time that they use a bunch of settings such as these as a DEFAULT setup. Just ONE profile. (my no 2 one) as a starting point.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby steves1977uk » 15 Feb 2020, 00:37

No idea BM, obviously the manufacturers think setting a delay is the norm. :roll: It seems as though they are ignorant to the fact that some of us disabled can't drive a chair with linear controls. Someone should set a turn delay on all their vehicles and see how they manage! :fencing :argument :cussing Oh and on the accelerator and brakes too!

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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 15 Feb 2020, 04:00

If they did that then they would all crash on the drive home. Yet they think that its FINE to set up every last powerchair this way! I simply do not understand their logic. I have asked both PG as well as sunrise, and invacare tech people this too. They just think that I am mental. Yet everyone that ever tries things my way NEVER wants it back how it was.

Of course this doesent apply to front drive/gyro systems because all kinds of stuff happens. And you end up with the gyro trying to prevent your movements, and/or removing all your joystick command power as its using all of the power itself, to prevent the rear spinning out and theres non left for you. So you get to the point where you are in a turn, and left joystick commands feel normal and right stick either does nothing or starts some odd occilation. And that causes a technical electronics fight. And you cant go where you want. Effectively you run out of amps / volts to have any overhead and an electronics argument develops.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby ex-Gooserider » 25 Feb 2020, 06:33

I think that BM's "one-size-fits-all" formula for hand / joystick positioning is problematic in view of the wide range of disabilities we are dealing with (I'm certain it works wonderfully for him!)

What I think is a more appropriate 'formula' is to look for a configuration between the user and the joystick that is comfortable and allows the arm and wrist (or other body parts) to be "anchored" to a fixed point on the chair so that any joystick movement is always in reference to that point, regardless of how the chair bounces around.... A helpful thing is to find a way to hold the joystick so that as little movement as possible is needed to move the stick to full range in any direction (I suspect the 'cradle' yoke things I see on many quad chairs are far from optimal as it takes a lot of distance to move full range)

The KEY thing IMHO is that the user must be comfortable enough to stay in the control position for extended periods and have a fixed 'reference' for the body part that is controlling the chair....

I remember back when we had the power-soccer folks more heavily involved that there was often a need to strap the player's arms down to keep them from losing that control reference when pushing their chair through high speed turns and such, but that every user needed a slightly different setup....


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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 25 Feb 2020, 11:04

I think that BM's "one-size-fits-all" formula for hand / joystick positioning is problematic in view of the wide range of disabilities we are dealing with (I'm certain it works wonderfully for him!)


I agree. Where I have issues is that the default setting should be accurate linear control. Instead of the exact opposite dangerous crap that every chair comes with. It should begin life steering normally in instant linear fashion just like your car. And be adjusted away from this to make it uncontrollable, sorry I mean to suit specific issues as needed.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby ex-Gooserider » 03 Mar 2020, 03:56

Burgerman wrote:
I think that BM's "one-size-fits-all" formula for hand / joystick positioning is problematic in view of the wide range of disabilities we are dealing with (I'm certain it works wonderfully for him!)


I agree. Where I have issues is that the default setting should be accurate linear control. Instead of the exact opposite dangerous crap that every chair comes with. It should begin life steering normally in instant linear fashion just like your car. And be adjusted away from this to make it uncontrollable, sorry I mean to suit specific issues as needed.



Total agreement on the programming side of things - but programming and positioning the joystick are separate considerations - and I don't think there is a good 'starting point' for positioning other than looking for what fits a given user....

That said, I strongly suspect that fixing EITHER the programming OR the hand / joystick position would improve most users driving experience to some degree, though it is obviously best to do both...

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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 14 Apr 2020, 09:16

Total agreement on the programming side of things - but programming and positioning the joystick are separate considerations - and I don't think there is a good 'starting point' for positioning other than looking for what fits a given user....

True.

That said, I strongly suspect that fixing EITHER the programming OR the hand / joystick position would improve most users driving experience to some degree, though it is obviously best to do both...

Well here I would disagree. I cant drive my own chairs that are crisp, linear, and accurate - at all, at least safely - without correct hand technique and that requires correct joystick position to allow this.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby ex-Gooserider » 21 Apr 2020, 08:03

Not a real argument, but if you start with sloppy stock programming and bad hand position, I suspect the driving would improve by fixing either one, but not as much as fixing both.... I am left handed mostly, and use my mouse with my left hand by choice, but CAN use it right handed if I have to, just not as well...

I also suspect that you can't drive your chairs safely w/ less than perfect hand position / technique because you have tuned them to the maximum, so less than perfect control input gets hairy... OTOH I can drive my weedy POS Pilot+ chair that has been tuned mostly to your specs, with my wrist, elbow, wrong hand, holding the joystick pod in one hand with it not even attached to the chair, etc. if I need to, and get where I'm aiming for... I certainly can't drive as well like that as I can w/ my preffered hand on the joystick pod and thumb / finger on the stick, but if my hands are full or otherwise busy - it works...

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Burgerman wrote:
Total agreement on the programming side of things - but programming and positioning the joystick are separate considerations - and I don't think there is a good 'starting point' for positioning other than looking for what fits a given user....

True.

That said, I strongly suspect that fixing EITHER the programming OR the hand / joystick position would improve most users driving experience to some degree, though it is obviously best to do both...

Well here I would disagree. I cant drive my own chairs that are crisp, linear, and accurate - at all, at least safely - without correct hand technique and that requires correct joystick position to allow this.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby 7Gluk » 05 Jun 2020, 14:31

Good day to all!
Please help me determine which remote control of the EXCEL X-POWER 5.
Image
Sorry if offtopic, but I did not find a more suitable topic...
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 05 Jun 2020, 16:10

Looks like a Dynamic Shark .... maybe a DK-REMD01

https://www.amazon.com/Dynamic-Shark-Jo ... B013OLCC3E

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dynam ... 20&bih=969

Unbolt it and look under the mounting plate for the model etc..https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com ... L1500_.jpg
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby badthumbs » 07 Jun 2020, 10:33

Hello everyone,

i am impressed with the help you guys are giving here!
in the last weeks i have been reading the different posts carefully and have acquired a cable and resistors. my vehicle is a Sterling Elite XS with which i unfortunately drive over my dog at full throttle before he comes to a stop. when he brakes everything is ok but he decelerates for at least a second before the brakes come on. the second problem is the reverse gear, rolling quickly out of the way is simply impossible! on a straight track the best speed is 2mph...

now i would like to change this but i don't have the right software to do it. since you are helping everybody out of trouble i hope to expand my possibilities this way.

sorry for any typing errors i have to put this all through a translator :thumbup:

Thanks a lot.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby Burgerman » 07 Jun 2020, 12:12

Hello everyone,

i am impressed with the help you guys are giving here!
in the last weeks i have been reading the different posts carefully and have acquired a cable and resistors. my vehicle is a Sterling Elite XS with which i unfortunately drive over my dog at full throttle before he comes to a stop. when he brakes everything is ok but he decelerates for at least a second before the brakes come on.


The brake is a thing that is applied ony AFTER you stop rolling. The rate of deceleration is controlled by the motors, subject to however it is programmed. There are no brakes as such. You need to increase deceleration to a higher value.

the second problem is the reverse gear, rolling quickly out of the way is simply impossible! on a straight track the best speed is 2mph...

Again there are no gears. The motors simply rotate the opposite way. This is again determined by programming. You can increase the reverse acceleration, reverse deceleration, and reverse speed. Then you can reverse over your dog.

now i would like to change this but i don't have the right software to do it. since you are helping everybody out of trouble i hope to expand my possibilities this way.

What software are you lookng for. As in, which is the manufacturer of your scooters controller?
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby badthumbs » 07 Jun 2020, 13:26

The brake is a thing that is applied ony AFTER you stop rolling. The rate of deceleration is controlled by the motors, subject to however it is programmed. There are no brakes as such. You need to increase deceleration to a higher value.
Again there are no gears. The motors simply rotate the opposite way. This is again determined by programming. You can increase the reverse acceleration, reverse deceleration, and reverse speed. Then you can reverse over your dog.
What software are you lookng for. As in, which is the manufacturer of your scooters controller?


First of all many thanks for your quick response! :clap

There is an "EGIS" controller installed! Looks like it:
Sterling-Elite-Xs-8-Mph-Mobility-Scooter-P.jpg
Sterling-Elite-Xs-8-Mph-Mobility-Scooter-P.jpg (17.3 KiB) Viewed 14807 times


According to the posts I followed in this forum I need the pg drives technology mobility pc programmer as manufacturer edition
along with the self-soldered cable to change or adjust anything at all.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby 7Gluk » 07 Jun 2020, 18:24

woodygb wrote:Unbolt it and look under the mounting plate for the model etc.

Thanks, i found it :) Model: Dynamic A-Series DA50-A41.
Is there any software to configure this remote?
Will a homemade programmer (assembled for newVSI) based on FT232 work with it?
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 07 Jun 2020, 22:48

7Gluk wrote:
woodygb wrote:Unbolt it and look under the mounting plate for the model etc.

Thanks, i found it :) Model: Dynamic A-Series DA50-A41.
Is there any software to configure this remote?
Will a homemade programmer (assembled for newVSI) based on FT232 work with it?

NO .... You need Dwiz-Adapt or a home brewed interface plus the Wizard software.

viewtopic.php?t=4095
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 07 Jun 2020, 22:50

badthumbs wrote:

There is an "EGIS" controller installed! Looks like it:
Sterling-Elite-Xs-8-Mph-Mobility-Scooter-P.jpg


According to the posts I followed in this forum I need the pg drives technology mobility pc programmer as manufacturer edition
along with the self-soldered cable to change or adjust anything at all.


Yes.
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby 7Gluk » 07 Jun 2020, 23:22

woodygb wrote:NO .... You need Dwiz-Adapt or a home brewed interface plus the Wizard software.
viewtopic.php?t=4095

Is it the same FT232 with signal level converter (about 10V), as i understand?
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Re: PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

Postby woodygb » 07 Jun 2020, 23:26

7Gluk wrote:
woodygb wrote:NO .... You need Dwiz-Adapt or a home brewed interface plus the Wizard software.
viewtopic.php?t=4095

Is it the same FT232 with signal level converter (about 10V), as i understand?


NO...You need to buy a DWIZ-ADAPT OR make your own from the diagram ....or I can make you one.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4095&start=90#p118668

Image

Image

Image
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