PINNED - Info on PROGRAMMING PGDT and others

[stefanturbo]

I have 3 sunrise ones, inc the one on my salsa chair, and a permobil. Since it only displays for a short time on boot, why does it matter? It doesent ffect anything else as far as I know.

No it doesnt matter

[dmccoyks]

I am trying to figure out what type of USB Cable I need to connect my programmer (see picture) to my computer. I have an R-Net controller and the LED joystick.

I have read that it requires the special USB FTDI cable, but I don’t see how that would work for my unit. Is that one only used with the VR2 controller? The port on my programmer looks like a printer USB cable connection. Is that the correct type of USB cable I need or can someone please let me know what cable is needed. Thank you for your help.

[rover220]

dongle plugs inline on any rnet connection, you need a usb type b cable to connect dongle to pc

[dmccoyks]

Perfect. Thank you!

[ex-Gooserider]

I have 3 sunrise ones, inc the one on my salsa chair, and a permobil. Since it only displays for a short time on boot, why does it matter? It doesent ffect anything else as far as I know.

Of course it might weird out any tech that goes to work on the chair later - I'm sure most would probably tell you it was broken......'

I also know of folks that like to do confusion... A guy I knew a long time ago had a variety of touring bikes - he'd wear his HOG jacket when riding his Gold Wing, his GWRA jacket while riding his Guzzi, and his MGNOC jacket on the Harley.... If going to a brand rally, he would ride the 'wrong' brand.... If he got any accessories that had a brand logo on them, he would put them on any bike OTHER than the one they went with....

ex-Gooserider

[Scooterman]

So this is the value to change when I fit lithium?

To what value, 27V?

Btw why is the OEM setting only 22.5v for lead? Is it so top speed is the same regardless of battery volts?

[steves1977uk]

To allow headroom for steering SM, with lithium you can up this to 25v since there's less voltage drop under load.

Steve

[Scooterman]

To allow headroom for steering SM, with lithium you can up this to 25v since there's less voltage drop under load.

Steve

Oh I see, thanks Steve.

I wouldn't have thought of that, good point!!!

It obviously didn't apply when I did the mob scooter. Just as well, as I didn't think of it anyway.

[7Gluk]

Good day to all!
I have electric wheelchair with a newVSI (D51161.01) control.
I set up speed and acceleration for myself, but I did not find how to remove the delay (not about start delay) of about half second for any actions.
Tell me, please, how to remove this delay, if it possible?

[Burgerman]

Set turn acceleration,
minimum turn acceleration,
turn deceleration,
and finally minimum turn deceleration all to 100.

If this is then too "sharp" for you, set the turn speed lower until it no longer is. And minimum turn speed too.

Then it will turn and stop turning when YOU decide.

To do this on most systems, you may need the OEM version of the programmer. Which are you using?

[7Gluk]

Thanks!
I'll try on the weekend.
The version seems to be OEM. Old, as I understand, but working.

[Burgerman]

You, and every single chair out there is the same. And has the same problems. NON of them can hit a barn door accurately. Its because for reasons that absolutely defy all reason and logic the manufacturers seem to think that they should introduce delays into the control system. Its stupid, and its dangerous.

It turns a proportional accurate control system that should work like a PC Mouse, your car, your RC helicopter etc, as an accurate representation of what you choose to do with your joystick. Into a dlayed action pudding stirrer where you wack the joystick around and wait or pray for it to respond. And thats called TURN ACCELERATION. And at low speeds its called MINIMUM TURN ACCELERATION.

Next, you move the stick say LEFT. It finally decides to turn, by much more than you wanted (due to it not actually responding fully at first, and so obviously you added more left...) and so now you panic and add OPPOSITE right stick. But it continues to turn left for some time! Making the error even worse. Then far too late, the OPPOSITE stick kicks in. And then it overshoots and you cant stop it doing so. This is called TURN DECELERATION. and MINIMUM TURN DECELARATION when at lower speeds. And this is even worse than than above!

These 4 acc/dec settings are generally set to low values. Like 35 or 50. Making any prediction of what will happen when you try to steer impossible. At 100 they have some delay, but its livable with. Its pretty close to linear. 90 isnt enough.

The delays in reacking full stick, cause you to over control, and to get very frustrated. Making it impossible to control accurately. People that dont understand that this is a programming problem, and can be fixed completely, call this "getting used to a chair" or getting used to a new chair... Basically it makes the steering respond as if you have some super slow 3 to 4 second radio control servos. Only worse!

Setting these 4 settings to 100, may require the ABS settings to be set to 100 and to 0 first. (these are walls, designed to prevent users with non OEM software to be limited to less than 100). So in fact you may need to change these settings too. To remove the walls that prevent you setting 100.

Welcome to the crazy world of powerchairs.

[7Gluk]

Totally agree with you! Such control would be put on the cars of the programmers of these remotes...
I set all 4 settings to 100, the control became adequate. Many thanks!
May be to post this problems solution in the first message of toppic, since almost everyone has it?

[Burgerman]

I have.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8035

A whole locked thread on programming. Still, most people do not get it. Most think that its great as it arrives. Will not change or try this. You have, and now see how bad they really are! I attempt to explain this to eveyone. Nobody listens. What can I do?

[7Gluk]

I can share my opinion on this.
The first message contains only general information, but usually it contains important information or links to it with a specific description of the problem. And to be honest, I would not think that it relates to my problem. Looking through it, I was looking for something like “control delay”, “turn delay”, etc.
The second message is good as a particular example, but as a general solution to the problem much better is your answer to me.
This is just my opinion, and besides the English language is not native to me.

[Burgerman]

Well thats because most users have the control pod, and hand technique set up in the wrong place, and cannot control the chair properly until that problem is adressed. And so that is priority 1. And only then can proper proportional control be used (reprogramming). And even then, many have hand/control issues due to paraplegia or other problems. So only once that is adressed, do we get to the stock delayed action control configuration issue as a problem.

Why? Because most users need that stupid dangerous delay/turn accelerations/decelerations so they can wack the joystick about like they are stirring a pudding since they cant do anything else properly, and then wait for something to move/happen. (Caused by the joystick positioning (above) issues...) Or they will go off all out of control!

So you must start at the beginning. Address the BIG issues in the correct order. Right now, 95% of all powerchair users have the joystick in the wrong place. And have technique/hand position all wrong. And joysticks are wobbling around loose all over the place! And set in a position where they cannot correctly cup the joystick, and control it with the thumb and forefinger. So they cannot reprogram the chair as you just did. If they do, they simply cannot control it so they think that its worse! And so almost all chairs have this stability and positioning problem first, and then the programming "delayed action" problem sat on top. As a bad solution to inadequate control or hand technique...

Most chairs on the planet therefore are absolutely crap to drive! Incorrect joystick position, incorrect hand positioning, and so all that delayed turn control is required.

These delays turns a proportional accurate linear control device into a digital one. Where you apply full turn, then wait to get some turn. It means innacurate control. But it means someone that has poor hand control, and incorrect hand positioning, due mostly to incorrect joystick positioning can actually move the chair without destroying the room. Add enough slow turn acceleration, and turn deceleration, and you may as well have 4 on off switches, and a clock.

[7Gluk]

Here you are right only about people with good hands.
For people with bad hands, everything is different (I judge by myself and my friends with cerebral palsy). For us, there is no correct control pod position, only a comfortable position (few of them can hold the joystick with their fingers). But finding this comfortable position is often very difficult, but with an inadequately working control pod it is even more difficult...
So in this case it is better to first properly configure the control pod, and then look for a comfortable position for it.
You would be surprised what joystick positions can be comfortable.

[Burgerman]

If you cannot "cup" the side of the controller, and use thumb and forefinger to control the joystick, you will never have good control. And depending on severity of hand, ability, and positioning of joystick, you also may never be able to use the settings that give linear proportional control at all. I have tried to sort this out for many people.

[LROBBINS]

It sometimes takes pretty inventive measures to deal with the needs of different users. Steve Blosser, the engineer (EE, but really much more) at the Artificial Language Laboratory of Michigan State University is a master at this, or at least was when I was still in MI - 23 years ago. He's probably retired by now. For example, for one chap with severe athetoid cerebral palsy he made a strongly detented joystick with hydraulic damping - eight detents in X and eight in Y, and then interfaced that not only to his chair but to a John Deer Mule converted to WC drive on.

As an aside, this user was also one of the first people (I think the second or third) to publicly use a voice-output computer (from the Artificial Language Lab) to order a pizza delivery. He later became facility director for one of MSU's athletics buildings. Mr. Blosser also helped me make the switch driving interface for Rachi's first power chair with its analog computer, he made Rachi's first voice output computer and we worked together to build her second. In a general sense he got me started learning modern electronics and programming, a really dedicated and inspiring guy as is Prof. John Eulenberg head of the lab. I feel very lucky to have met in person or on line people who have inspired me to go outside my comfort zone and do new things: Steve Blosser and John Eulenberg for electronics and programming, Burgerman for the mechanical and driveability side of things.

[7Gluk]

If you cannot "cup" the side of the controller, and use thumb and forefinger to control the joystick, you will never have good control.

Here you are absolutely wrong.
For example, I control a WC with my palm or fist. And besides this stupid delay, there were no problems.
And I personally know a person who controls a WC by elbow so well that ride in narrow rooms at full speed.

[Burgerman]

If you say so. But much experience and days of messing about with many such individuals says otherwise. How do you stabilise your arm in relation to the joystick pod on bumpy ground whel performing accurate monoevers? If your hand moves 4mm in relation to the control pod in errror you change direction.

[LROBBINS]

Perhaps 7Gluck and/or the "elbow" driver could post some film clips to show us how they do it, and remember John, we have a member here, Steves1977UK, who drives with a foot joystick, so, with ingenuity a lot is possible that doesn't seem obvious.

[steves1977uk]

Yes that's correct Lenny, I drive my chair with my right foot using my heel. A properly programmed chair is much easier to control than a stock delayed one.

Steve

[Burgerman]

But you still need some stability for your foot. Or every bump or dip, or turn, would see you add unintended control inputs.

I had one guy that insisted that he wanted to pull the stick back to go forwards. He thought it was easier for his quad hands and fist grabbing jotstick method. And I programmed it to do so. And when we turned up the acceleration to a level that HE wanted, around 90, he almost flipped himself out of the rear. Because as he pulled the stick back the chair shot rapidly forwards. But his arm was left behind pulling the stick ever further. The wheelie bars saved him. While we all laughed! It wasnt like we were not expecting it. That caused positive feedback. Solved with velcro on the arm top, and his sleeve. Stability of the arm/hand is needed as a reference point.

[steves1977uk]

Oh I agree BM, some places like the Shambles in York is a challenge! But I manage by slowing down so I can keep my foot on the joystick.

Steve

[Burgerman]

Ah. But thats what I would call not fully in control. Workable no doubt. But...

You would be rubbish at this for e.g. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4

I cannot do this without the hand position, and control pod position shown. At least not in complete confidence and know exactly where it going.

This is an old 80A chair, 20 stone user and battery about knackered... And its turn acceleration/deceleration/ is only set to a "low" 90. Its not precise enough. But good enough to confidently wheelie through doorways at 6mph (because this chair wont go faster) that are literally a couple of inches wider than the chair CONFIDENTLY. I do this daily for 23 years... All day. Everywhere. And never hit anything ever.

Watch hand and fingers/thumb only.

[LROBBINS]

Of course a stable position with respect to the controller is essential, but it needn't be thumb and forefinger. As important as this is for someone sitting in the chair, imagine what it's like for someone driving from an attendant joystick. Trying to convince people to solidly fix palm to the joystick and work it with just thumb and finger has nonetheless been amazingly difficult until they actually try it.

[7Gluk]

How do you stabilise your arm in relation to the joystick pod on bumpy ground whel performing accurate monoevers?

I put my hand on the armrest and rest against the joystick. Yes, I can’t precisely control the speed (for this I switch profiles), but there are no problems with turns on a bumpy road.

Perhaps 7Gluck and/or the "elbow" driver could post some film clips to show us how they do it

I cann't say anything about my acquaintance, there is no connection with him, we just studied together.
I can to film myself closer to summer. Now it’s difficult to leave the apartment, and there is not enough place for filming in the room.

I drive my chair with my right foot using my heel.

You are real man!

I had one guy that insisted that he wanted to pull the stick back to go forwards...

That's what I’m talking about. There is no correct position of the hand and remote control for everyone; there is only a convenient / correct position for each individual. Often a person himself does not know what position will be comfortable for him. And this "turbulence" because of the turn acceleration can additionally be confusing when searching for this correct / comfortable position.
I suggested only writing in a prominent place about this peculiarity of controlling the remote control with the original settings of turn acceleration, but not recommending everyone to set this parameters to 100.

You would be rubbish at this for e.g. http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/control.mp4

Yes, I can’t drive the WC so carefully at this speed, but I don’t need it.

[Burgerman]

I put my hand on the armrest and rest against the joystick. Yes, I can’t precisely control the speed (for this I switch profiles), but there are no problems with turns on a bumpy road.

Mine is set to kill/max on every possible parameter, and at highest speed on fastest only profile with acceleration and most stuff set to 100 since 1997. Including tweaking motor compensation to make it respond a bit sharper! I can easily manage this because I have proper control/positioning/technique. Theres never any need to set it to a slower speed. Or slower profile, ever! Thats what the joystick is for! Its fully proportional. Linear. This is exactly what I am talking about.

While you can manage the faster speeds and linear turn settings etc when you mess around with speed profiles, many cant even do that. Which is why I was trying to put things into correct order (pod positioning, hand technique etc) to max out the JOYSTICK control capability first. BEFORE setting everything to 11/kill! In stages... It may help that I spent 40 years flying model helis, turbine planes, etc. But its all the exact same skill. But you need a firm hand/arm (or leg!) reference point for accurate control.

[7Gluk]

You have good hands. But I have a hyperkinetic form of cerebral palsy, I'm adapting as I can.