PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby LROBBINS » 01 Nov 2017, 09:33

But, it may caused your problem. If the yellow wire is not connected to + but left floating, depending on the controller model, the microprocessor may be turned off. Most Roboteq controllers do have an internal diode from the battery + connections to the processor DC-DC supply, and they will turn the processor on even if yellow is floating, but some models do not.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby LROBBINS » 01 Nov 2017, 17:07

Updated hardware, software and manual for the complete CANbus system as well as a generic analog version of the Roboteq script have now been uploaded to Google Drive:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3svXvyPGRgral9FU2lJZlpHdFU
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby SEMOGdaniel » 02 Nov 2017, 21:04

Here are the roboteq's tab when i connect my rs232 cable from the pc to the HDC2450's controller:
imgpsh_fullsize.png

imgpsh_fullsize (1).png

imgpsh_fullsize (3).png


You can see at the bottom the green led and firmware identified.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 02 Nov 2017, 21:18

Controller model: MISSING...
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby SEMOGdaniel » 02 Nov 2017, 21:30

Via USB the controller is detected (roborun+ does an automatic scan), using the rs232 doesn't.
I'll try to solve the power controll's wire first to see if it can solve my problem.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby LROBBINS » 02 Nov 2017, 22:11

That is strange behavior. If it does recognize the controller via USB the microprocessor is getting power (via the large battery cables if the yellow wire isn't connected). Double check the pinout of the RS232 cable (could tx and rx be reversed?), but if it's correct I suggest posting this on the Roboteq forum under troubleshooting.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 03 Nov 2017, 03:42

Apologise for not testing yet. Buying a sunrise chair, so apointments to keep and only up 5 hours a day... And been buying and playing with a stupid sized monitor. Its like a door, and mesmerising. :admirer Cant believe how good it is. My 2 dell 30 inch monitors are going on ebay. Nobody needs a 55 inch OLED 4K monitor but nobody needs a powered mower... Or a supercar.

If you have eyes like mine then its even better. The pixel pitch is around 80 ppi. Instead of around 100. So text is easier etc. And with almost 3840 pixels wide and 2160 deep space isnt exactly a problem. You forget where you left an icon, or the mouse. And have rubberneck to look all over for it! You dont know it, but you need one.

Will give it a go tomorrow!
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 04 Nov 2017, 22:34

Cant get the USB lead to work now. Its a square printer type one. And its buggered. So cant test till I get another tomorrow. I think my new monitor crushed it. And my blader infection is back, but stuill not bad enough to be ill. Bed bound. Doing a sample for the doctor tonight. Get an antibiuotic that should actually kill it.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby LROBBINS » 05 Nov 2017, 10:59

I certainly hope that you do get an antibiotic that will lick the infection. Will the doc do a culture and antibiotic sensitivity test?
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby LROBBINS » 05 Nov 2017, 12:03

Oops. I just spotted a 10X error in detecting sensor fault while moving for the mobot. Here's a corrected version:
Attachments
John analog 2017_10_12a.mbs.zip
(51.33 KiB) Downloaded 600 times
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 05 Nov 2017, 12:28

My doctors are useless. Yes they will do that. But they use a simple solution thats cheap, not long enough, and not strong enough. All hey are doing is making bugs that are resistant... They need 2 or 3 different antibiotics at once. and a cont low level one to keep it at bay. All paraplegics have a low level of infection continually. But trying to discuss this with them is impossible.

Right now I feel crap and will stay on my bed till later tonight, see if I feel OK again.

Good find with the error!
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 05 Nov 2017, 12:31

Still I can watch 4K movies on the worlds best monitor from my bed! My ISP will go mental. I am currently downloading about 35 full UHD 3840 X 2160 HDR blueray movies at between 20GB to 85GB each! At around 90 to 110mbit! I am using more bandwidth than half the town for 24 hours so far. I got a letter last time for doing a quarter of that! :shifty:
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby arikimau » 21 Nov 2017, 20:27

regarding my F55 rebuild project, as a non-techie, I have 160 plus pages to read through on the roboteq controller

in short, re their site

they sell model HDC2460 for US$ 575 (!)

they also offer

25 pin to rc radio cable
6'dsub 9 pin cable
break outboard
rs232-iso
usb-iso
data logger

do I need any or all of these ?

as I can then place a single order

please advise
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 21 Nov 2017, 20:43

Before attempting to get some "engineer or mechanic/electrician" to build everything, or order any parts, you MUST read and understand the thread on lithium, and on roboteq well. If not this will end up as a pile of parts and a massive expence. They will never understand or have the time to understand hundreds of pages, you wont know this till it begins to get expensive and there are complex problems. This is not a project for the non tech type of person you claim to be. And it rules out most so called tech minded people too. Think of it as a build quality and IQ test, and allow around 1000 hours of concentration to learn/build something to a better standard than the real manufacturers 1st time.

Its not a construction kit, theres no instructions, and you must understand it properly. On a dificulty / learning scale of 1 to 10 its an 11.

I also suggest you read the roboteq 2450 or 2460 manual in full and if you dont understand anything go back and re-read. Or ask. As far as the scripting pages at least.

Then ask questions. THEN consider ordering parts.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby arikimau » 21 Nov 2017, 21:25

thanks, appreciated

i wish it wasn't so

but i was indeed hoping it would be (in effect) a kit project

(like some commentators the roboteq programming thread went way, way, way over my head)
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 21 Nov 2017, 23:33

Lennys code goes over my head too, but you need to undertand at least what its doing and why its needed (the physics). And have an analytical brain.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Vitolds » 22 Nov 2017, 15:28

Even I agree with you, Lenny genius :thumbup:
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Vitolds » 27 Dec 2017, 01:10

The novelty of the roboteq GBL 2660
:clap
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby LROBBINS » 18 Aug 2018, 17:13

I want to point out that there is still some unfinished business re. programming for the Roboteq controllers. I have incorporated some new things in the CANbus system for Rachi's chair, but they've not made it into the analog-only script or are there but have not yet been tested adequately. They are:

(1) Adjusting acceleration rate at different speeds or mechanical loads. (This DOES NOT apply to brushless motors.) Brushed motor acceleration (and deceleration) in Roboteq-ese is not physical acceleration but change of PWM per change of time. This results in slower physical acceleration when under load, for example, when starting out. Particularly on the BM3 which has a very large speed range, setting accel and decel to give comfortable mid-speed acceleration gives sluggish behavior starting out, and setting them high enough for low speeds makes it too harsh later on. I was working on an algorithm to compensate for this based on rate of change of current when the BM3 suffered a motor failure, followed by Burgerman being out of commission with repeated pressure sores. It works on Rachi's chair, but her chair does not have that wide speed range. It still needs to be tested on the BM3. If it does not work as intended there, I will have to re-think how to do this, probably using (commanded PWM - actual PWM) to control a boost of accel & decel when starting out.

(2) Motor compensation without current sensors. There is no simple way to sense motor current in brushless motors. Current sensors can be added for brushed motors, but, though I've since figured out how to make it safe-fail, a sensor failure can lead to a runaway. Hence, I tried to improve on Roboteq's motor current estimation to allow sensorless motor compensation. It actually works pretty well on Rachi's chair, almost as well as with sensors, but in Burgerman's mobot it's awful. The mobot has such a high power to weight ratio that it is actually moving at a goodly clip before the Roboteq sees any battery current draw at all - so there's no motor current estimate and, without motor current sensors, no compensation at all until then. The BM3, or the WILLchair for that matter, in this respect are more like Rachi's chair; they have more power, but also weigh more. So I suspect that this new sensorless compensation scheme will work reasonably well on most chairs, but that's not been tested at all.

(3) Current sensor safe-fail operation. I have figured out a way to detect current sensor failure and have incorporated this in Rachi's CANbus system. If a sensor has failed before startup, the chair works without any motor compensation (of course, sluggishly so you know there's a problem). If it fails after the computer has been turned on it auto-switches to sensor-less compensation (which, on Rachi's chair is not at all obvious). This has not been ported to the analog-only script and I will do so only after (1) and (2) have been settled.

So, some volunteers are needed. For (1), that means Burgerman, so I hope he's up and about soon, and not tied up with myriad other projects. If there's someone else using the Roboteq with brushed motors, please raise your hand. (2) should be tested with both brushed and brushless controllers. Will has modified his script, and I don't think it includes many of the updates made along the way on John's (such as a vastly simplified, and much better, turn compensation algorithm). I don't relish the idea of juggling two majorly-different programs, but Will - if you want to get involved in testing this, let me know and I'll try to harmonize your script and John's. Anyone else interested in helping with this is absolutely welcome to join in, but we're going to have to start with scripts that mostly share their code or I'll get things royally screwed up.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 18 Aug 2018, 19:27

Every time I get off this bed for a few hours a day, back it comes. Been going on for 2 years. I have a million things to do before I can get that chair in and swap a motor and start testing again. And right now am highly frustrated. And trying to heal the same 2 sores again. :thumbdown:
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Williamclark77 » 20 Aug 2018, 14:23

No need to juggle two different scripts on my account. Yes, I use a heavily modified version of a very old script. My modified version works great on both of MY 48v brushless setups with zero lag. I have no idea how it would work on brushed or with current sensors. Quite frankly, I'm not confident enough in my code writing ability to let others use it. I almost killed myself once with a typo in the motor compensation routine. It's been several years since I messed with it. Haven't needed to.

I did test some later revisions but had the same issues Burgerman had.

One thing with mine that I haven't figured out: On my W1 chair, when you first power it on, moving the joystick does nothing for 4 to 5 seconds. It's as if it is disconnected. I ASSume it's until the Roboteq is fully booted with the script running. THIS IS THE BEHAVIOR I WANT. My W2 chair that I use daily does not do this. The joystick works immediately, which is not good. It (seems to) be working without the script until the Roboteq is fully booted. No big deal as long as you don't touch the joystick for five seconds after powering it on, but still not the optimum behavior.

I honestly have not tried to figure out why in well over a year and did not really troubleshoot a lot. If I recall correctly I copied the W1 Roboteq profile to W2 and the same script to both with no change in the behavior of either. I can't recall if I checked to make sure the Roboteq firmware version of both were the same. I THINK I updated both but can't remember.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby LROBBINS » 20 Aug 2018, 18:12

Will,

Working on the script for your chair would be to help me. It would be for you to test script revisions in a brushless system, not because you need a new script. If you don't want to engage in that project, don't worry about it, but if you do I would be happy to try to create a script with the revised routines that incorporates what you've changed.

For the joystick active on startup problem in Willchair2, I suspect that the same thing happened to your profile as happened to my copy of the analog profile. Take a look at "configuration tab/analog startup/center command to start" -- this should be ENABLED (and it's disabled in my analog profile - a goof that crept in I don't know when - yet it is enabled in the profile for John's mobot). That parameter is irrelevant for the CANbus system as the joystick is read by the Master module, not by the Roboteq, and I probably used the CANbus profile at some point as the basis for my analog profile that I use only for bench testing.

The delay for script start up (at least for the HDC2450) is 2 seconds, but it should be up and running only milliseconds after that. It takes my CANbus system 5 seconds - about 300 milliseconds for Master to come alive and trigger power on for the other modules, some milliseconds for the Roboteq's computer to be live and 2 seconds for the script to start, a few milliseconds for handshake check among all the modules, and 2 seconds for the display to fully paint the initial screen after the whole system is actually running - I can, however, start driving as soon as the screen starts to paint, so at about 3 seconds from pushing the button.

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Williamclark77 » 20 Aug 2018, 19:17

I'll check that in the next few days.

And of course, I'll test revisions of the script if needed. It'll be simple to use my W1 as a test mule.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby LROBBINS » 20 Aug 2018, 20:44

Great. It will probably be sometime in Sept. before I have a fully-updated "generic" analog script ready. At that point, I'll ask you for a copy of your script so that I can incorporate your changes.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby eugenech » 20 Aug 2018, 23:52

Lenny,

I will test brushless analog version as soon as its ready. I will also send you my version. I did some changes for potentiometer handling resulting in much smoother acceleration and more control at high settings and low speed.

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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby LROBBINS » 21 Aug 2018, 08:16

Thanks Eugene, that will be most helpful.

How have those Chinese geared-brushless motors been working out? Have you monitored current draw under various loads and speeds? (You can do that either by adding a line in the script to print battery current and copying the text from the Run tab, or with a clamp meter on a battery lead - not on a motor lead because of the square-wave commutation of the brushless.) I ask because those motors, as many, use a worm gear and I'm wondering about their efficiency.

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 21 Aug 2018, 10:31

The way to work out motor current which may be up to 10x the battery current depending on impedance and load and also speed, is battery Amps, x pulsewidth (or power). So if 50% motor pulsewidth, then combined motor current is double the battery current.

Because I dont know of a way to measure it directly on a brushless motor. Unless you take a reading via a clamp meter (true RMS) and then multiply by 2 (or 3?). And divide by 1.5?

This is of course why low impedance motors are way more efficient. Or why higher voltages are, (same result) because you can half the gearing and so reduce load by 50 percent and still get same top speed. In other words the lower the motor impedance, the lower the battery current is for the same torque/Amps at the motor.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby LROBBINS » 21 Aug 2018, 10:38

is battery Amps, x pulsewidth (or power)
Yes, except that "x" should be "divided by". I don't know if even a true RMS clamp meter would work correctly with the waveform of brushless commutation.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby Burgerman » 21 Aug 2018, 10:53

Yes, except that "x" should be "divided by".


My bad...

Battery amps = 50
Pulsewidth = 50.


I hate maths.

Either way at half the pulsewidth you get double the motor amps compared to battery amps!
And at 10% pulsewidth, you get 10x the battery current, at the motor.
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Re: PINNED - Roboteq Controller - developing for powerchairs

Postby eugenech » 29 Aug 2018, 02:42

LROBBINS wrote:Thanks Eugene, that will be most helpful.

How have those Chinese geared-brushless motors been working out? Have you monitored current draw under various loads and speeds? (You can do that either by adding a line in the script to print battery current and copying the text from the Run tab, or with a clamp meter on a battery lead - not on a motor lead because of the square-wave commutation of the brushless.) I ask because those motors, as many, use a worm gear and I'm wondering about their efficiency.

Ciao,
Lenny



Motors work great! We build two identical chairs. One with Permobil M300 motors and one with brushless. Brushless have better ride, very smooth. I monitored amps using Roboteq Motor AMP and Battery AMP variables. Most I got was 35A. I will modify script, print values and let you know if it goes higher.

Here is my routine for SpeedPot:
ASpeedPot:
DIM TempPot AS Integer
IF (LoopCycles MOD CyclesPerSpeedPotRead) = 0 THEN
IF SpeedPotInstalled=TRUE THEN
SpeedLeft = GetValue (_BSR, 1)
SpeedRight = GetValue (_BSR, 2)
Pot = GetValue (_VAR, 1) + 10
IF Pot > 100 THEN
Pot = 100
END IF
IF Pot < 0 THEN
Pot = 0
END IF
TempPot = Pot
IF SuppressPrinting = FALSE THEN
PRINT ("SPEED POT set to " , Pot , "% \n")
END IF

ELSE 'speed pot not installed
Pot = DefaultPot
TempPot = Pot
END IF 'end of IF SpeedPotInstalled=TRUE
TempPot = Pot - abs((Pot - (abs(SpeedLeft) + abs(SpeedRight))/20))
IF (Throttle >=0)THEN
Min = SpeedPotFwdMin
Max = SpeedPotFwdMax
ELSE
Min = SpeedPotRevMin
Max = SpeedPotRevMax
END IF
'PRINT ("TEMPPOT set to " , TempPot ," Pot ",Pot, "% \n")
SpeedPot = ((Max-Min)*TempPot)/100 + Min
IF (Throttle > -150) THEN ' use Fwd turn values when at or above "turn in place"
Min = TurnPotFwdMin
Max = TurnPotFwdMax
ELSE ' use Rev turn values only when definitely going backwards
Min = TurnPotRevMin
Max = TurnPotRevMax
END IF
TurnPot = ((Max-Min)*TempPot)/100 + Min
END IF 'end of IF (LoopCycles MOD CyclesPerSpeedPotRead) = 0
RETURN 'End of "SpeedPot:"


VAR 1 holds the value for Potentiometer (I use software vs hardware).
By reading speed from the motors I dynamically change SpeedPot value. That way Pot defines maximum value and SpeedPot changes with the speed allowing for smoother ride and automatic adjustment of joystick commands based on speed.
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