Invaracare controller swaps

[tchrey]

All ~ Is it possible to swap out controllers and joysticks from other models with each other? ie: my controller may of gone bad on my FDX and I want to replace it with a MK5 controller vs a MK6i controller. Will it still work?

[Mr T]

Maybe... Maybe not... I have 3 invacare chairs & they are all different. 1 has a dynamic controller that has no power control box (2006/7 approx), I will leave this one out for now but will give detail later if you need it. The other 2 have invacare MKIV controllers... 1 is a, MKIV A, on my older (1998) geared motor arrow but it was swapped when I smashed it, was originaly a MKIV A+. Then theres a newer (2003/4 approx) gearless brushless arrow with a MKIV A+.

So as you can see the older chair could use both controllers... but the newer one can not... I know because I tried & it didnt work. It might be in the programing but maybe not as both chairs have different power boxes. You could try getting info from a dealer/techie that works on them but they aren't always helpful. Older stuff is discontinued so dealers dont want too much to do with it, from my experience here in Oz, but you might be lucky if its newer.

Hope this helps?????????????

[jptrx]

I think this can be done, but you would have to swap both the controller and the joystick. They have totally different electrical connectors on the cables so you can't plug a MK5 controller into a MK6 joystick, but the connectors going from the controller to the TTHD GB motors is the same for both MK5 and MK6, at least on all the ones I have seen.

If your FDX has the TTHD GB motors, than you would have to use the MK5 TTEX controller, with a MK5 MPJ joystick.

[Sully]

I would question the amp compatibility of the different models of controllers. I have two MK IV R11 controllers and their joysticks. They control different models of motors, but motors are dumb I don't think they care what controls them. They only care that they get enough power supplied to each motor . Power to the brakes must be compatible that is they get the power they require what ever that happens to be for your application.

I do not see that you cannot use what ever connectors you want to the motors, again provided they have the right capacity. I think I would keep the wiring as short as possible if you are changing the connectors and a size larger that what was used originally. See the discussion on soldering connections, it is worth the read, there is a lot of real good information/advice there.

But the conectors from the joy stick are a different matter. Each wire sends signals to different areas or communication points within the controller. If you do not know the proper sequence to connect to the controller, is where I think you will get into trouble.

You will more than likely have to program the controller to work properly with the motors they are talking to. After all it is simply a computer that controls the power to the motor.

[jptrx]

They control different models of motors, but motors are dumb I don't think they care what controls them. They only care that they get enough power supplied to each motor . .

This is wrong. Invacare Gearless brushless motors and and there conventional 2 and 4 pole motors require completely different controllers.

[rollingcowboy]

I would be surprised if you could use the mk6 joystick with mk5 controller

[ex-Gooserider]

As mentioned, there are two types of motors that Invacare uses - some of their chairs use a "Gearless Brushless" (GB) motor, and others use the same sort of conventional brushed motors that pretty much all the other chair companies use...

The two types of motors use different controllers which are NOT compatible! If you have GB motors, you MUST use a GB controller. OTOH, if you have brushed motors, the GB controller won't work with them. I am not sure about the rules for mixing the joystick pods and controllers - however I would say that if the plugs don't match then it's probably not going to work.

However any brushed motor controller (and matching joystick pod) should work with any other brushed motor as long as you make the appropriate programming adjustments, and particularly ensure that the brake voltage settings are correct (some brakes are 12V, others are 24, and getting it wrong will cause major problems)

You can also get issues if you mix a powerful motor with a weedy controller, but mostly the problem will be just poor performance, as the current limiting of the controller will keep the motor from getting full voltage. (a weedy motor will work with a powerful controller, but will still be weedy, as it's can't pull more current than it's designed for, no matter how much is available)

Mixing controllers and joystick pods is trickier, but the basic rule is that they both need to be from the same manufacturer, and usually from the same model family.

ex-Gooserider

[Sully]

I have tried to write a long explination but I keep losing all my content.

Thanks again Goose that is exactly what I was trying to say. I did not consider brushless motors or controllers when I was writing. They are entirely different.

Rolling cowboy I did not even consider mixing or even using the MK5, IMHO that would be foolish.

[Sully]

This is what I am considering; I have several controllers and chairs. I have the MKIV –R11 with its own joystick control, and two E675 motors that were on that chair off an Invacare Ranger. I also have the Nutron frames and controller which I think are light weight! “Weedy”??

Then I have a Jazzy HD 1170 Controller and joystick, with 2, E675 motors set up for that mfg chair. One motor looks like it has had a hot supper and the other obviously came from a used motor reseller. I am not sure I want to use these at all. But they don’t eat, so I can warehouse them for the future.

Since it seems pretty impossible to figure out if one controller will produce more amperage to the motors than the other, I have gleaned that the Jazzy might be just be a bit better amperage producer to the motors. 80 amp as opposed to 70 amps, but I am not 100% on that.


The Invacare motors and controller I have seem to be used for different purposes mid and forward mounts as well as a rear application; at least it appears they were used like that. The Jazzy has reversed plug ins on the controller male on one side and female on the opposite, but since the motors are the same I am “assuming” they can be used either way. Because the Invacare is used this way, OK, all I have to do is put on my own Anderson plug ends on and I have pretty much what I think I want.

Now brakes, If I put 24VDC to either controller I should be able to find out what voltage the brakes run on by using a multi meter in the brake plug and energizing it. Same applies to both controllers.

What I can’t easily find out is how much Amperage is actually going to the motors, from either controller. This is the wrinkle. I want to use the better and most powerful of the controllers I have available to me. I do know I will have to program these to get the most out of them.

Of course if I had all the cash I wanted I would simply buy new stuff. But this is more fun, and I don’t have the money.
I can adjust the width of the side frames, fairly easily, using the Invacare Nutron side frames and some small structural square tubing to maintain the outside dimensions of the wider tires.

Are my controllers “weedy” define “weedy”. These are far less “engineered” controllers, to suit the uses they might be used as. I am not sure that is a bad thing.

I keep batting these things around, and am having a hard time making up my mind, exactly what I might finally do. But all my other chairs are Mid wheel and the Nutron is rear wheeled drive, better for “off road” use.

[Burgerman]

What I can’t easily find out is how much Amperage is actually going to the motors, from either controller. This is the wrinkle. I want to use the better and most powerful of the controllers I have available to me.

You can only go by the maximum rated amps of each unit. If you dont know this, then the programming tool will show you the max that can be set. The only simple way to measure it is with a clamp meter on a motor cable. Not a battery cable because that will be less at stall... Drive up to a wall and try and push it down, read maximum off.

If a motor is stalled it will pull the maximum amps that it is ever going to do, based on its impedance. A weedy motor may only pull 60 or 80 amps no matter how big the controller if stalled.

A big 4 pole motor will usually pull around 120 amps or often a good bit more. So this will be limited by the maximum the controller is capable of, or the maximum the batteries can provide, before voltage falls to the level that the controller reduces power to maintain safe function.

Hope that helps simplify!

[ex-Gooserider]

Note on the brakes - look at the coil unit for a label - possibly removing any cosmetic covers... On at least some of the motors I've checked (inc. ones from Pride, Sunrise, and Redman) there was a label on the coil with a part number (doesn't mean you can actually get one) and the voltage / resistance values...

If it's there, will save trouble, if not you haven't lost anything...

ex-Gooserider

[justahack]

Now brakes, If I put 24VDC to either controller I should be able to find out what voltage the brakes run on by using a multi meter in the brake plug and energizing it. Same applies to both controllers.

As long as the controller/motor combination is stock (i.e. they were paired originally) , you can determine brake voltage with a meter.

Throwing any motor on a controller obviously is not the same, since the controller will put out whatever brake voltage it is set for, regardless of what is connected to it.

[tchrey]

You guys are brilliant. Thank you as I continue my quest. I will keep you posted in this grand experiment.
Trey

[tchrey]

Yea. this is a 4-pole motor; and the label on the controller says GTRAC-PMA90; joystick says MK6-MPJC; if you read my other post you'd know that i'm going through all of this b/c after some mild programming on turn speed; my unit shut down with a 205 fault code and now when powered up says "Controller Inhibited"...manual says contoller is torched. burgerman says controllers are bomb proof. so scrounging ebay for new controller methinks. a few months ago i used a spj+joystick on this FDX base and it worked.

[Thndrwhls]

Gentlemen, I'm back at it with my old Arrow, it currently has MK4, with 4 pole motors. I am looking to upgrade the controller and joystick to say MK6 90amp, do I need to change out the 4 pole motors as well? Or just the connectors?

I've been searching the threads and this one is the closest I have found but still confused on motor connectors.

Thanks in advance

[Burgerman]

Motors are fine.

[Thndrwhls]

Now to find the proper plugs!

Thanks BM!!!

[ex-Gooserider]

Gentlemen, I'm back at it with my old Arrow, it currently has MK4, with 4 pole motors. I am looking to upgrade the controller and joystick to say MK6 90amp, do I need to change out the 4 pole motors as well? Or just the connectors?

I've been searching the threads and this one is the closest I have found but still confused on motor connectors.

Thanks in advance

Motors should be fine, no problem. If swapping connectors, I'd go with the small 15/30/45A Anderson Power-pole units with the appropriate contacts. On my Ranger project chair, which was born with MKIV that is what was already on the motors. (It now has a 100A Pilot+ setup)

ex-Gooserider

[Thndrwhls]

Gentlemen, I'm back at it with my old Arrow, it currently has MK4, with 4 pole motors. I am looking to upgrade the controller and joystick to say MK6 90amp, do I need to change out the 4 pole motors as well? Or just the connectors?

I've been searching the threads and this one is the closest I have found but still confused on motor connectors.

Thanks in advance

Motors should be fine, no problem. If swapping connectors, I'd go with the small 15/30/45A Anderson Power-pole units with the appropriate contacts. On my Ranger project chair, which was born with MKIV that is what was already on the motors. (It now has a 100A Pilot+ setup)

ex-Gooserider

So Goose, ultimately what I want to do is give this thing enough power to climb. I take it to a lake house on the weekends and with stock controller set up it will go up the hill just fine, but after I have been up and back a time or two it starts to pause when I need it to boost up a small curb up on driveway.

So would I be better off with MK6 gear at 90 amps, still ahve to change the plugs on the motor leads, or trying to switch it all up to the PG 120 amp controller and stick? It currently has 4 pole HD motors and is geared low, 4mph. I have the programmer for this controller MKIV and have played with the settings some as per what I have read here. On mode 4 only I have cranked up torque, acceleration to 100%. Which works great, but like I said, once I have been up and down a few times it feels like it over heats and just stops. This is usually when I am trying to get up the 2-3" lip at the end of the concrete pad that goes down to the backyard. Once I let it sit, then turn off on, it is fine so i am thinking this is 1. battery getting slightly used, and 2. The controllers ability to provide amps that are hindering it. Just not prepared for the jump to Robotech just yet.

I want to go with bigger tires as well, 16" or 18", but am worried about torque is I do.

[ex-Gooserider]

This sort of fade and recovery after sitting a bit sounds to me like a battery issue - are you still running on lead bricks?

What happens with those is that when you run moderately hard, you pull the charge off the surface of the battery plates causing them to act like deeply discharged. Then when you sit for a while, the chemical reactions penetrate into the plate coatings and balance out the charge so that the surface acts like it has recharged.... This sometimes shows up on a chair as losing some of the battery LED's as you are running, and then having them come back on while sitting. Its the same reason why if your car runs the battery down while trying to start, you can get a bit more cranking after letting it sit for a few minutes....

This problem is worse in gel batteries and gets worse as they age.... The lead fix is to go to Odysseys, or better yet go to lithiums instead.

The controller overheating tends to be either stopping or massive power reduction, not just a pause, until the controller cools back down.

Not sure what the best replacement controller is, in part because I'm not sure what the old MKIV controllers had for outputs in the first place...

On my H-Frame (Ranger-X) project chair, which supposedly has the 4-pole, 6mph motors, I went with a 100A Pilot+ power module. This is because I'm used to the Pilot+ series, have the software for programming them, etc. The 100A units are hard to find, the 85A units are much more common, and probably would have done the job.

Note that none of the controllers deliver the claimed current for very long, all just put out full power for only a few seconds before 'rolling back' to a lower level.

ex-Gooserider

[Thndrwhls]

This sort of fade and recovery after sitting a bit sounds to me like a battery issue - are you still running on lead bricks?

What happens with those is that when you run moderately hard, you pull the charge off the surface of the battery plates causing them to act like deeply discharged. Then when you sit for a while, the chemical reactions penetrate into the plate coatings and balance out the charge so that the surface acts like it has recharged.... This sometimes shows up on a chair as losing some of the battery LED's as you are running, and then having them come back on while sitting. Its the same reason why if your car runs the battery down while trying to start, you can get a bit more cranking after letting it sit for a few minutes....

This problem is worse in gel batteries and gets worse as they age.... The lead fix is to go to Odysseys, or better yet go to lithiums instead.

The controller overheating tends to be either stopping or massive power reduction, not just a pause, until the controller cools back down.

Not sure what the best replacement controller is, in part because I'm not sure what the old MKIV controllers had for outputs in the first place...

On my H-Frame (Ranger-X) project chair, which supposedly has the 4-pole, 6mph motors, I went with a 100A Pilot+ power module. This is because I'm used to the Pilot+ series, have the software for programming them, etc. The 100A units are hard to find, the 85A units are much more common, and probably would have done the job.

Note that none of the controllers deliver the claimed current for very long, all just put out full power for only a few seconds before 'rolling back' to a lower level.

ex-Gooserider

Sadly, yes! i am still using MK's. Once I get the controller and joystick upgraded I am going to go Lithium. I'm going with 15"x 6" turf tires on the back, and bigger casters on the front. My issue is finding the right connector for the motors to the controller. Since my motors are MK4 and the MK6 has difference leads, I will need to get my hands on the MK6 motor connectors. Any leads on where to find them?

Thanks,

[ex-Gooserider]

Not sure - but if you have a wiring harness with the ends that connect to the power module, there is no reason you can't chop the other ends off and fit whatever you need to match the motor cables, (Which on my chair used the 15/30/45 size Anderson Power-Pole shells with the corresponding contacts for the wire size)

If you don't have the harness, you might try calling around to the various chair salvage yards (look for ebay vendors with lots of chair part listings) and see if any of them have a harness - likely as most don't list a lot of the parts they get.

The other option if you can identify the connectors used (I don't know what they are, others here might) is to get new connectors from a parts house like Newark or Digikey, and make your own harness to fit your needs...

ex-Gooserider

[Thndrwhls]

Not sure - but if you have a wiring harness with the ends that connect to the power module, there is no reason you can't chop the other ends off and fit whatever you need to match the motor cables, (Which on my chair used the 15/30/45 size Anderson Power-Pole shells with the corresponding contacts for the wire size)

If you don't have the harness, you might try calling around to the various chair salvage yards (look for ebay vendors with lots of chair part listings) and see if any of them have a harness - likely as most don't list a lot of the parts they get.

The other option if you can identify the connectors used (I don't know what they are, others here might) is to get new connectors from a parts house like Newark or Digikey, and make your own harness to fit your needs...

ex-Gooserider

I ended up buying motors, 125 for the pair, with the correct connectors already, Ebay is a great resource. I picked up an MK6 programmer with pro card for 75$, the MK6 90 amp controller and joystick with color LCD for 125, with most of the cables. Motor cables are already on the motors. I should be all set... and thanks for your advice!

I do have a question though, you seem to know a bit about the invacare stuff, i have the 4 pole motors that have 3200 RPM sticker on them, and the ones I just bought did not have the sticker. I presume the difference is 3200 rpm is high torque, or so I have been told, and the others are standard 4 pole motors no sticker. So riddle me this... from what I understand when winding motors less turns in the winding's is more torque and lower RPM, while more turns in the winding's is more RPM = more speed and less torque. Do you know which invacare motors are the strongest? Im looking for torque over speed.

Incidentally it is difficult to find any info on Invacare motors.

Thanks,

[Burgerman]

Dont worry about windings, as all the 4 pole motors can pull more Amps than a mobility controller is electronically limited to.

So at stall, and at full power your motor will be sat at around 6 volts (say a pulsewidth of 25 percent from your 24v battery.) Why? The controller and power module measure the Amps, and limit you to 90A max, by reducing pulsewidth. Thicker and less turns on windings = more Amps at any given voltage. So it WOULD theoretically give more torque, but now all that happens is that the motor Volts are lower at your limiting 90A... So torque remains the same. However battery Amps have fallen and are lower at the same 90A motor current. So you gained efficiency. You also gained RPM, so higher speed when free running. So lower impedance = better efficency. You may want to read this twice!

So torque is limited by 3 things.
1. The motor impedance must be low enough to pull full 90A from your controller at stall. Lower still = no gain in stall torque. But efficiency gains.
2. Gearing. A 4mph motor all else equal, has double the torque of an 8mph one.
3. Power module max Amps. I use R-Net and pilot plus. 120A and 100A. In reality both almost as good since the 120A is just a few seconds boost.

[Thndrwhls]

Dont worry about windings, as all the 4 pole motors can pull more Amps than a mobility controller is electronically limited to.

So at stall, and at full power your motor will be sat at around 6 volts (say a pulsewidth of 25 percent from your 24v battery.) Why? The controller and power module measure the Amps, and limit you to 90A max, by reducing pulsewidth. Thicker and less turns on windings = more Amps at any given voltage. So it WOULD theoretically give more torque, but now all that happens is that the motor Volts are lower at your limiting 90A... So torque remains the same. However battery Amps have fallen and are lower at the same 90A motor current. So you gained efficiency. You also gained RPM, so higher speed when free running. So lower impedance = better efficency. You may want to read this twice!

So torque is limited by 3 things.
1. The motor impedance must be low enough to pull full 90A from your controller at stall. Lower still = no gain in stall torque. But efficiency gains.
2. Gearing. A 4mph motor all else equal, has double the torque of an 8mph one.
3. Power module max Amps. I use R-Net and pilot plus. 120A and 100A. In reality both almost as good since the 120A is just a few seconds boost.

So wouldnt be worth rewinding them. Thanks Burgerman for the info!

So, I bought the MK6 90amp controller, MK6 MPJC, Joystick. I also happened across a programer for MK6, with a professional SD card. Its an older version of the software, 1.1/1.4.1 written on the card, but was able to download the current upgrade from Invacare. However it wont load, gives file not found error when I try to run it, it looks for the SD card, I tell D: and then it erros. Anyone have any experience with upgrading, know anything about the versions of software and if the newer versions work with all MPJ Joysticks.

Thanks,

[shirley_hkg]

You don't really need the SD card .

Programmer alone will do all of it .

[Thndrwhls]

You don't really need the SD card .

Programmer alone will do all of it .

Thanks Shirley, I was able to update the card, silly me (and I work in IT) wasnt selecting the drive, it was the only one available so didnt think to click on it. Once I did however it updated the card. I really wanted the IVR software for my laptop, as the programmer I bought came with the cables for connecting a laptop.

Thanks for your input.

BTW, have you or anyone else ever setup NK6 for remote control. I see several posts regarding RC for an electric chair, but not to much specific to MK6 electronics. However did find one that I believe Woody explained that it can be done with an Arduino. Has anyone done it?

Thanks,

[Thndrwhls]

Okay chair back together, the motors I had on there were 4 pole 3200 ROM sticker on the side. But the motors I bought for the new controller upgrade were 4 pole also , just no sticker that said 3200 RPM. I have programmed it to full acceleration, speed and torque, but its slower now, what gives?

Thanks,

[Burgerman]

The only RPM that matters is the shaft RPM on the output. Where the wheel bolts on...

All motors use a combination of motor rpm and gear ratio to arrive at either 4, 6, 8 mph or whatever.

The actual motor rpm is unimportant.

My EMD 6mph motors are marked as 174rpm.

6mph is then, 174 rpm give or take 5% with typical 14 inch powerchair wheels.
So 29x your speed in mph, gives the rated shaft rpm you need.

My 4mph EMD motors are marked 116rpm and some newer ones 120rpm.
My AMT 8.5mph motors are marked 238rpm (at 22V)

6mph then, doesent matter if thats a 3000rpm motor with a 40 to 1 gear reduction, or a 1500 rpm motor with a 20 to 1 reduction. Same road speed... Same result. So what you have done is bought motors with a greater reduction ratio gearbox.

2 affects apart from obviously slower!
a) more range
b) more torque
And this means your battery service life will improve.

[shirley_hkg]

Try new motors with original gear boxes .