PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby White Lightnin' » 27 Sep 2019, 03:30

If a pl8 will not exceed 50 amps input, then that must be the reason the company is selling a 50 amp charger to fit a 15 amp circuit to run on 115 volt American household current. Has anyone tried the 50 amp charger the company is selling? The price of it is somewhat reasonable compared to the other chargers I’ve seen for sale. I’ve also read on this site variable voltage chargers are better to have. Also I see that many chargers now offer three stage charging. Does anyone know if they are any good? I want to buy a pl8 so that I can do some Odysseys now and get to lithium in a year or two. I’m thinking a three stage charger is not the thing to use with a pl8. Some of them are very expensive also. Does anyone have any opinions to share?
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Irving » 27 Sep 2019, 07:53

You shouldn't use a 3-stage charger as input to a PL8 unless you can be 100% sure it can be used as a 'dumb' power supply. Not saying its impossible but that's unlikely IMHO; the only one we know for sure is the one Shirley_HK supplies.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 27 Sep 2019, 10:37

If you do the charge will end and do so due to the voltage from the charger dropping before the PL8 has completed. Or it wont start...
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby ex-Gooserider » 01 Oct 2019, 04:27

Irving wrote:
ex-Gooserider wrote:The US electrical codes REQUIRE any device that needs more than 1500W to use the 20A style plug, and prohibit the installation of 20A compatible outlets on 15A circuits.... SNIP...

Except most PSU, esp modded, and equipment designed for international markets, will use an IEC plug-in cable - there's nothing to stop a 15A-provisioned cable being plugged into kit capable of drawing 20A. My 2400W ex-Dell pair draws 11A on 240v when loaded to 100A output (2400W out @ 90% eff into 2 x PL8), but 17A on 110v (1500W out, 63A max, as measured) as efficiency drops to 75% at the lower input voltage. The IEC cable is labelled "15A max" but the only way to ensure that would be to manually limit the dual-PL8 input current to 2 x 27.5A @ 24v (or 1 @ 35A and 1 @ 20A, etc). Of course a single PL8 will never exceed 50A input anyway (13.6A @ 110v).


One can't control what a USER does ( I have a supply that supposedly will draw 25A @ 110V, and it's wired w/ a 15A cord, but I know enough not to try to use it at an output that would draw excessively from the mains side...) But it is STILL technically a code violation to put a 15A cord on a 16+A device no matter who does it.... At least potentially if you had a fire and investigation pointed at that cord / device as a problem you might have problems collecting on insurance at the very least...

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby ex-Gooserider » 01 Oct 2019, 04:36

White Lightnin' wrote:If a pl8 will not exceed 50 amps input, then that must be the reason the company is selling a 50 amp charger to fit a 15 amp circuit to run on 115 volt American household current. Has anyone tried the 50 amp charger the company is selling? The price of it is somewhat reasonable compared to the other chargers I’ve seen for sale. I’ve also read on this site variable voltage chargers are better to have. Also I see that many chargers now offer three stage charging. Does anyone know if they are any good? I want to buy a pl8 so that I can do some Odysseys now and get to lithium in a year or two. I’m thinking a three stage charger is not the thing to use with a pl8. Some of them are very expensive also. Does anyone have any opinions to share?


There is a BIG difference between a '3-stage charger' and a 'Variable Voltage power supply'....

Shirley's supply is unusual in that it can do both modes, normally you just get one or the other function.

In very short form, a 3-stage charger has internal circuits that cause the charger to change it's output voltage automagically, without user intervention, in response to the level of charge of the batteries it's connected to...

A Variable voltage supply will put out a CONSTANT voltage that can be changed to a desired value by the user, typically by turning a knob.... This ability to change the output is the only thing that makes it different from a fixed voltage, non-adjustable supply....

Some users have found that the PL-8 has problems at certain input voltages with some fixed voltage supplies, because the charger tries to switch between 'buck' and 'boost' modes on it's own internal circuitry as the voltage of the battery pack it's charging changes.... By using an adjustable supply, one can set the voltage to a value that avoids this issue....

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby White Lightnin' » 11 Oct 2019, 03:30

Finally ordered Odyssey 34 PC1500t batteries, an IOTA 25 amp power supply, and an IQ4 for AGM batteries. Forgot to order 6 gauge cables. Does a 6 gauge cable have more cross sectional area than the 10 square millimeter wire talked of in this forum or should I be looking for the 10 square mm wire? I begged off on a 40 amp charger because I thought it might have less chance of burning down the building at work. I think it will be enough to get me started with the Robotek when the time comes. Come to think of it I need to get Anderson’s also. Will someone please tell me if the charging circuit for the batteries must be disconnected from the controller when charging? I know better than to connect a 25 amp charger at the controller connection. I hope I didn’t get too far off topic with this entry. I’ll put any more charger entries elsewhere.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby LROBBINS » 11 Oct 2019, 08:26

10mm2 corresponds to AWG7, but try to find that! AWG6 is fatter, and it's better to get some 10mm2.

You can directly charge the batteries at high current without disconnecting any of the normal chair circuitry. The current won't pass through the XLR plug; it just sees the voltage and that's the same as always.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 11 Oct 2019, 08:32

https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/iq4spec.pdf


This holds the battery at 14.2V for up to 8 hours. For Odyssey to have a long service life that must be 14.7V at 20c temperature. So you will get a very reduced service life.

That means that the 24V version will hhold the batts at 28.4V, instead of 29.4V which is bad for them. Please read this below or just the image clip.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/odyssey.pdf Specifically page 14, and note the graph on the right side of the page that shows the result of charging at 14.2V. Its not pretty!

So to be clear. That charger, with its 'advanced' AGM charge algo module, will kill the batteries at less than half their expected cycle life.
You MUST charge at 14.7V until 1000th of the 10h capacity rating is reached. Thats around 62mA before dropping that 14.7v down to 13.4 to 13.6V float. Although float isnt required in cyclic use. But that will take 8 hours at CV approx with a 25A charger. 8 hours CV, or 65mA whichever occurs first. Stop if current begins to rise again.

Read...
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 11 Oct 2019, 08:54

CORRECT charging matters. Its why I laugh when people claim on here that the latest MK Gel batteries are not as good as they used to be. When whats really happened is that the manufacturers have started sending out compact one size fits all 3 stage AGM/Gel 'smart' chargers. Which do not properly charge gel batteries. But nobody listens... And the weight of chairs has almost doubled. And power modules have more power and torture the batteries more. :clap
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Thierry » 31 Dec 2019, 23:06

It is important to note that most disabled people are NOT able to build anything by themselves or even manipulate complex objects, due to their health condition. Chargers should be of light weight, easy to plug. This is my case.

Would you mind confirming that this marine charger will be convenient for two 70ah GEL batteries (group 24): https://www.batterystuff.com/battery-ch ... 415ul.html

They have a specific switch for 24v GEL that seems ensure correct values, but I may be wrong.

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Irving » 01 Jan 2020, 00:53

Thierry wrote:It is important to note that most disabled people are NOT able to build anything by themselves or even manipulate complex objects, due to their health condition.

Only you can decide what you are capable of, but don't generalise. Many disabled people can manage far more than they imagine, once they put their mind to it. I'm a 61y old quad/tetra with zero hand function but I've re-engineered 2 chairs, built a lithium pack, mentor 2 students at the local Academy, I teach basic mechanics and basic electronics to MSc students at the research labs associated with the spinal unit, where I also act as an ambassador in the "art of the possible". Oh and I'm currently doing a PhD and, as a sideline, reverse engineering the R-Net programmer ...arguably I'm doing much more now than when I was employed before my accident 7y ago!
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby steves1977uk » 01 Jan 2020, 01:56

Thierry wrote:Would you mind confirming that this marine charger will be convenient for two 70ah GEL batteries (group 24): https://www.batterystuff.com/battery-ch ... 415ul.html

They have a specific switch for 24v GEL that seems ensure correct values, but I may be wrong.

Than you!


Ideally you want 28.2v at CV and 27.2v for float voltage. That charger you linked to would need an Anderson connector fitted as 15A is too much for the chairs wiring through a XLR plug. The max current you can charge through the XLR port is 12A.

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 01 Jan 2020, 14:02

Its switchable from 28.80V to 14.00V CV stage.So if set to 14.00 (or 28.00V in fact) then it will be great on gel. IF it drops to the 27V float at a sensible point. The problem is that it does not say as per usual...

It wants to switch from the 28.00V to 27.00V when current drops to around 1/3rd of an amp. 200 to 350mA. Or 8 hours max, whichever occurs frst. But it doesent say... So it may be perfect. Or it may be better than most! We cant know because aparently we are all to stupid to be given the real data.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby steves1977uk » 01 Jan 2020, 18:12

https://www.samlexamerica.com/documents ... 9_Hrez.pdf Doesn't mention when the charger terminates, so who knows how good it is? :eh:

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby LROBBINS » 01 Jan 2020, 18:38

Kind of hidden, but here's what it says on p. 19:
As the capacity is fully restored, the charging current starts reducing. When the cur-rent reduces below the preset threshold (1.5 to 2A for SEC-1215UL / 2415UL and 2.5 to 3A for SEC-1230UL), the charger automatically switches to the "Float or Maintenance Stage"
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 02 Jan 2020, 03:02

Thats around 4 hours too soon. What are they thinking? I think they understand electronics, and they have a C programmer. And neither of those people have a clue about batteries. So this is what we get.

That means that instead of stayng at CV for approx 6 to 8 hours, or till around .2 / .3A, It just stops... Meaning the lower float voltage must be relied upon to top off the battery. But that lower 27V will take maybe another 20 hours.

So not a good choice of charger unless you have all the time in the world to recharge. If you are a scooter user, and leave it more than overnight regularly that charger will be great.

If like most powerchair users, it gets charged as you sleep, 12 midnight to 8am for e.g., then its useless. It will stop charging after around 2 hours, and drop to float...

What we REALLY need for overnight cyclic charge, is CC then CV at 28V to 28.2V (room temp or less) until it reaches (drops to) 1000th of Ah capacity (so 74mA end, on a 74Ah MK gel) or 8 hour whichever occurs first. At this point its fully charged, sulfates returned to the electrolyte, and can be used. This is the fastest way to do a full cyclic charge in the time we have available. It can also be left to go to float. But its now full, so no real need.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Thierry » 02 Jan 2020, 17:35

Irving wrote:
Thierry wrote:It is important to note that most disabled people are NOT able to build anything by themselves or even manipulate complex objects, due to their health condition.

Only you can decide what you are capable of, but don't generalise. Many disabled people can manage far more than they imagine, once they put their mind to it. I'm a 61y old quad/tetra with zero hand function but I've re-engineered 2 chairs, built a lithium pack, mentor 2 students at the local Academy, I teach basic mechanics and basic electronics to MSc students at the research labs associated with the spinal unit, where I also act as an ambassador in the "art of the possible". Oh and I'm currently doing a PhD and, as a sideline, reverse engineering the R-Net programmer ...arguably I'm doing much more now than when I was employed before my accident 7y ago!


I was only talking about physical ability. I have a PhD and have been an Associate Professor during 15 years when I was living in France, including 7 years on a wheelchair. But many disabled cannot plug their charger, this is a reality. Others can.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Thierry » 02 Jan 2020, 17:39

Burgerman wrote:Its switchable from 28.80V to 14.00V CV stage.So if set to 14.00 (or 28.00V in fact) then it will be great on gel. IF it drops to the 27V float at a sensible point. The problem is that it does not say as per usual...

It wants to switch from the 28.00V to 27.00V when current drops to around 1/3rd of an amp. 200 to 350mA. Or 8 hours max, whichever occurs frst. But it doesent say... So it may be perfect. Or it may be better than most! We cant know because aparently we are all to stupid to be given the real data.


Thank you! It is very clear. I'll try to ask to the manufacturer directly. Hopefully I will have this info or a specification sheet.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Irving » 03 Jan 2020, 06:40

Thierry wrote:
Irving wrote:
Thierry wrote:It is important to note that most disabled people are NOT able to build anything by themselves or even manipulate complex objects, due to their health condition.

Only you can decide what you are capable of, but don't generalise. Many disabled people can manage far more than they imagine, once they put their mind to it.


I was only talking about physical ability. I have a PhD and have been an Associate Professor during 15 years when I was living in France, including 7 years on a wheelchair. But many disabled cannot plug their charger, this is a reality. Others can.


And so was I. I 'work' in the research labs linked to the London Spinal Cord Injury Centre and liaise with many newly injured people. And yes, it's true that some cannot physically do some things. But I would contend, from personal experience, that many can do far more than they think they can, once shown how, or provided with a simple assitive device.

I have no hand function, I cannot hold anything, yet I manage far more than many supposedly less injured, by finding alternative approaches to the problem. For the first 6mo post injury I was in a very negative frame of mind but fortunately I managed to get past it thanks to many at the spinal unit and support from my friends at ASPIRE and the local SIA guys. For many the more serious 'injury' is a mental block - as organisations such as SIA & Backup work to overcome - and many that come to the spinal unit have been 'told' by the trauma team and quite often their relatives that they'll never do 'X' again. Well maybe not in the same way, but there's more than one way to skin a cat (not that I condone the action :lol: )
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 03 Jan 2020, 12:33

Cats are not skinned. You peel them.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Thierry » 03 Jan 2020, 17:51

Irving wrote:
Thierry wrote:
Irving wrote:
I was only talking about physical ability. I have a PhD and have been an Associate Professor during 15 years when I was living in France, including 7 years on a wheelchair. But many disabled cannot plug their charger, this is a reality. Others can.


And so was I. I 'work' in the research labs linked to the London Spinal Cord Injury Centre and liaise with many newly injured people. And yes, it's true that some cannot physically do some things. But I would contend, from personal experience, that many can do far more than they think they can, once shown how, or provided with a simple assitive device.

I have no hand function, I cannot hold anything, yet I manage far more than many supposedly less injured, by finding alternative approaches to the problem. For the first 6mo post injury I was in a very negative frame of mind but fortunately I managed to get past it thanks to many at the spinal unit and support from my friends at ASPIRE and the local SIA guys. For many the more serious 'injury' is a mental block - as organisations such as SIA & Backup work to overcome - and many that come to the spinal unit have been 'told' by the trauma team and quite often their relatives that they'll never do 'X' again. Well maybe not in the same way, but there's more than one way to skin a cat (not that I condone the action :lol: )


I agree! The environment also matters. I left France, a country where you have plenty of financial support for disabled, because of people. Ableism is the norm in France. I moved to the U.S. to escape from this sotuation. Now I'm not getting money (except from my own work and efforts), but an amendment protects me, and more generally the local culture makes my life easier.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 19 May 2020, 09:54

I agree! The environment also matters. I left France, a country where you have plenty of financial support for disabled, because of people. Ableism is the norm in France.


France people have been voting for more and more socialism since ww2. They are now at the point where they cannot compete in the world. They are no longer able to compete. Too many workers rights, too many handouts, too many pensions and benefits. And many have inadequate money even for the average working person to pay the bills. And it getting to the point where theres little on the shelves in shops too. So they feel like they need yet more socialism to be able to afford to live... Macron tried to do a few reforms to make them more competitive in the world, but they wont let him... So they are going to end up a very poor country for most people.

I moved to the U.S. to escape from this situation. Now I'm not getting money (except from my own work and efforts), but an amendment protects me, and more generally the local culture makes my life easier.


You mean the higher living standards? Paid for by being a much more capitalist country make your life easier with better infrastructure. Same reason Elon musk went to the US as in his words, the only country that could allow him to build his dream and put a million on mars before he dies. Thats true enableism. He didnt choose france.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby biscuit » 02 Jun 2020, 18:25

AGMs, is it enough to charge them for 8 hours at 28.8V? Does it reduce the service life if I never give them a longer charge?
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 02 Jun 2020, 21:34

Yes you must charge them to 101% full at least every 3 or 4 charges. And that means 4 hours ish at CC and then 8 or sometimes more at CV voltage. Or they will soon die.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby biscuit » 03 Jun 2020, 10:42

Hmmm... So my adjustable PSU won't do that 4 hour cc, nor will the PL8 and nor will any of my mobility chargers that turn out to do variations on 27.2V. And here I've been thinking Shirley's all-singing all-dancing charger would be an inexcusable indulgence, but in fact it's a necessity, else if I get new batteries they are doomed!
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 03 Jun 2020, 11:23

The shirly and pl8 both will. You just need to set them correctly.

Also hours is only one way. A better way is too monitor the cv current and stop charge when it doesent fall any more... Typically 500Th to 1000th of C. That happens to take between 4 and 12 hours depending on battery, and how it has been treated, and how old, and what type and how discharged it is, and how sulfated it is from previous lack of complete charges.

So with the shirley power supply you would set 14.4 (28.8v) and terminate automatically at .2A typically. That will take around 8 hours. And then float at 13.5V till you need to use it.

If it never reaches that, set .3A because the battery is old/sulfated or has been badly charged in the past.

On the PL8 you set the same volts, and 8 hour cv cut off. And 1000thC termination whichever occurs first. So 70mA on a 70Ah battery. You can do that now, with a PC.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby biscuit » 03 Jun 2020, 12:33

PL8 always ends at 8 hours or before, depends how depleted the batteries are. I set it to 20mA, ie 1000thC for the 20Ah battery. Current generally falls to less than 1A within the first 5-10 minutes .
I mistrusted the PL8 for a while. But then it always turned out to be my fault not the machine's. (Whoda thunk.) czy
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 03 Jun 2020, 12:38

Well thats correct. It charges at 8 hours CV unless it falls to 20mA before that. Perfect. Yes the charger isnt the one thats wrong. Unless you dont set it correctly. Its knowing what is correct thats the hard bit. I have lots of battery experience...
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby segreen » 18 Aug 2020, 19:10

What's the maximum you can charge MK batteries directly to the battery ie not from the joystick?
I charge my Odyssey batteries with a 60ah charger at 12v directly to each battery.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 18 Aug 2020, 22:34

Theres no inrush limit. I charge at up to 100A only because I have nothing bigger... As long as you dont exceed 14.4 to 14.7V. Theres little to be gained after around 30A though. Since the current drops off with time. So you must still do an overnight charge regardless. It helps stick 40Ah back in rapidly though during the day.
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