PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Cornbread » 25 Sep 2020, 19:00

Any recommended U.S. delivered brands? Haven't used the chair in a while. Wife's saw it was on, checked and the error code is on, with an F in the led display... Check the codes, no F listed so I call 21st. They also said odd, as that's not a code. So we unplug everything. Plug it back up, same. So check the batteries, 4v. Shit. Our fault, lack of maintence, and I suspect an old, though was told it was new, set of batteries. Won't charge. Will pick up some cheapies at Wal-Mart to get it going. What, if any brands are out there either from a store or delivered.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 25 Sep 2020, 20:35

Before you do that.

Remove them. Or use long leads. Connect one battery at a time to your running car. Plus to plus. Minus to minus. Give them 30 mins each.

Refit or take away jumper cables. Now try charging.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Cornbread » 26 Sep 2020, 11:22

Sure, will see if they will revive. Never seen one check that low on voltage though. Odd stuff.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 26 Sep 2020, 11:29

Cheap batteries wont work in a powerchair for more than a few weeks. You need MK Gel as large as will fit. And that isnt cheap, and these are about the best and pretty much only batteries that are any good. And they will still die if mistreated. They MUST be charged correctly. And daily if used even for 2 mins. And every 2 weeks overnight if not used.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Cornbread » 02 Oct 2020, 17:42

Well, tried everything we could to revive them, but nada. From jumpers and assorted chargers, including an industrial one. Got the voltage up, but after sitting for a bit, back down it went. Have some little things in there for now, at least it moves. It had 100ah group 27's in it, so looking at them again. Have not seen an MK brand anywhere here. Gel is nice, but for me, not overly important. As this chair doesn't care about weight like so many others have to. And I don't go that far. Still, will look, and sooner is better, as the ones in there die pretty quick.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby ex-Gooserider » 06 Oct 2020, 01:54

Duck-duck for the MK-gels, they should be available... If you really can't find them, you should at least get SEALED batteries as traditional unsealed batteries will put out fumes that will corrode chair and wiring over time...

You also want to get "Deep Cycle" batteries, like would be suitable for a trolling motor on a bass-boat, not automotive 'starter' batteries...

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Cornbread » 07 Oct 2020, 18:01

Well, the new ones got here. They are sla/agm, same as the others. Odd is the weight difference. The old ones, didn't weigh them so no exact numbers. But the new ones are significantly heavier, at least 10 lbs. Look about the same. So really wondering about the old ones now, wish they were not already at the recycling center. The new ones are the UPG UB121000. Heh, no matter what, better than the little temps in it now.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 12 Oct 2020, 16:20

Hi, what model of mk gel battery do you recommend me for a Quantum Rival wheelchair, or some other model of Gel battery that you recommend, Thank you
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 12 Oct 2020, 18:04

Isnt that a GRP24 chair? Then if so you need the Gel MK 74aAh ones.

Before instalation, connect them together 24 hours in parallel. Pos to pos. Neg to neg. To be sure both are equally balanced. They will last longer. And charge often, and EVERY time you use the chair. For as long as you have. Long after the green light comes on if time allows.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 12 Oct 2020, 20:44

Burgerman wrote:Isnt that a GRP24 chair? Then if so you need the Gel MK 74aAh ones.

Before instalation, connect them together 24 hours in parallel. Pos to pos. Neg to neg. To be sure both are equally balanced. They will last longer. And charge often, and EVERY time you use the chair. For as long as you have. Long after the green light comes on if time allows.


How do I know, if I have a GRP 24 chair?, I don't buy it used, Thank you
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 12 Oct 2020, 20:52

According to the manual it is.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby White Lightnin' » 25 Oct 2020, 16:41

Somewhere on this website Burgerman made an entry regarding how a bad power supply will ruin a pl8. Can anyone tell me which power supplies I should be looking for? I know the ZXD has been talked about. I’m looking for one of those and I’m not having the greatest luck. If I find something else first I’m going to buy it.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 25 Oct 2020, 17:41

You cant know without measuring it.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby ex-Gooserider » 27 Oct 2020, 04:43

If I recall correctly, the two big issues for a PL8 power supply are that it needs to put out reasonably 'Clean' DC, without to much AC noise, and without any high voltage spikes when turning it on and off (unless you ALWAYS disconnect the PL8 before power cycling the PSU) and that it uses a voltage that is OUTSIDE the voltage range of the pack....

It is not terribly critical if the PSU voltage is higher or lower, but if it is in the same range as the pack, you can have issues as the PL8 tries to switch between boost and buck conversion in going between the PSU voltage and the pack voltage. When the PSU and the pack are at different voltages, the PL8 uses one mode or the other for the entire charge cycle, which is better for it....

I forget off-hand just what the exact voltages are, but I think it's something like above 28V or below 20V for a 24V nominal pack.... Also don't exceed the maximum input voltage rating of the PL8.

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 15 Dec 2020, 05:53

Burgerman wrote:According to the manual it is.


How often can I charge the electric chair? if I don't use it for x days and how many hours is it recommended to charge it? thanks
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 15 Dec 2020, 12:02

If unused, charge 16 to 24 hours MINIMUM, preferably longer every 2 weeks. Because even when turned OFF the control system takes 10 to 20mA all of the time. And that allows the battery to sulfate. Which isnt good.

If you want to leave it a long time unused, disconnect a battery lead. After a full 24 hour charge. That should stay good for 3 to 6 months without charging.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL información de la batería de plomo

Postby BBPYAH » 15 Dec 2020, 16:26

Burgerman wrote:If unused, charge 16 to 24 hours MINIMUM, preferably longer every 2 weeks. Because even when turned OFF the control system takes 10 to 20mA all of the time. And that allows the battery to sulfate. Which isnt good.

If you want to leave it a long time unused, disconnect a battery lead. After a full 24 hour charge. That should stay good for 3 to 6 months without charging.



So from what you say, when I use it I can leave it charging for a little more than 24 hours, thanks for taking the time to respond
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 15 Dec 2020, 18:36

Generally If your charger is a modern one it does 2 things. It charges until after around 6 to 8 hours it says DONE and you get a green light.
At this point your battery is around 95 to 98% charged.

If you leave it connected after the green, it continues at a lower safe long term voltage. It SHOULD drop the charge voltage to around 27.2V indefinitely. Ignore the green.

The reason this matters is because the 2 percent remaing takes a very long time to charge. If the battery is healthy, 16 hours. If its old and never been charged properly can take weeks and may never be recoverable.

So an overnight charge does not complete it. The green light makes you think its done so you can go about your day. That last 2% is lead sulfate still on and inside battery the plates.

Whan you discharge a battery it takes the sulfuric acid and turns it into lead sulfate and lead dioxide. When you charge, the reverse happens. If you do not charge long enough then some lead sulfate remains, and over time it turns into a hard crystaline coating that does not conduct electricity. So you get permanant sulfation, and this builds over time untill the battery is toast. RIP battery. hanged

So even if you only move the chair a few feet, it needs a complete charge. That means typically 20 hours. If you want to leave the charger connected for a week thats OK too. You should periodically if you get the chance.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 15 Dec 2020, 18:49

If you use quality batteries, and CHARGE CORRECTLY and do not discharge too deeply which soon kills them, then lead batteries can last a very long time.

Heres a REAL WORLD example of how long it takes to really charge a lead battery. In this case with a much better charger than a mobility charger that lest me graph the actual results.

The scale is AMPS. The voltage is fixed at 14.7V. This is charging at 30A.
When AMPS stops falling, then its basically 100% charged. This is STILL falling, after 18 hours. So charge continues.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 21 Dec 2020, 07:07

Burgerman wrote:Generally If your charger is a modern one it does 2 things. It charges until after around 6 to 8 hours it says DONE and you get a green light.
At this point your battery is around 95 to 98% charged.

If you leave it connected after the green, it continues at a lower safe long term voltage. It SHOULD drop the charge voltage to around 27.2V indefinitely. Ignore the green.

The reason this matters is because the 2 percent remaing takes a very long time to charge. If the battery is healthy, 16 hours. If its old and never been charged properly can take weeks and may never be recoverable.

So an overnight charge does not complete it. The green light makes you think its done so you can go about your day. That last 2% is lead sulfate still on and inside battery the plates.

Whan you discharge a battery it takes the sulfuric acid and turns it into lead sulfate and lead dioxide. When you charge, the reverse happens. If you do not charge long enough then some lead sulfate remains, and over time it turns into a hard crystaline coating that does not conduct electricity. So you get permanant sulfation, and this builds over time untill the battery is toast. RIP battery. hanged

So even if you only move the chair a few feet, it needs a complete charge. That means typically 20 hours. If you want to leave the charger connected for a week thats OK too. You should periodically if you get the chance.


I bought these, MK M24 SLD G FT Gel 12 Volt - 74Ah Battery and I see that I am bad, I charge it with the charger included in my chair, hanged czy which charger do you recommend me the one in your photo?
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 21 Dec 2020, 21:46

THat charger above is total overkil for lead alone. We mostly use those for measuring capacity and charging and balancing lithium battery packs.

One of the better chargers for lead is the https://www.victronenergy.com/chargers/ ... 65-charger

This will charge your gel batteries correctly provided you go to the ADVANCED settings and enter the correct parameters.
Ask what those are here if and when you get one.
You will need to solder your own XLR plug onto the cable obviously. Or better still, and for many reasons, add an ANDERSON connector to the chairs battery and the charger instead. Then you can charge at max power. And without the problematic XLR connectors.

Read the manual.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 23 Dec 2020, 02:30

Burgerman wrote:THat charger above is total overkil for lead alone. We mostly use those for measuring capacity and charging and balancing lithium battery packs.

One of the better chargers for lead is the https://www.victronenergy.com/chargers/ ... 65-charger

This will charge your gel batteries correctly provided you go to the ADVANCED settings and enter the correct parameters.
Ask what those are here if and when you get one.
You will need to solder your own XLR plug onto the cable obviously. Or better still, and for many reasons, add an ANDERSON connector to the chairs battery and the charger instead. Then you can charge at max power. And without the problematic XLR connectors.

Read the manual.


I had a question about this model, Blue Smart IP65 Charger also handles these models, 12V 4/5/7/10/15/25A, 24V 5/8/13A, which of these models do I need, Thank you .
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 23 Dec 2020, 03:30

24V, 5/8/13A
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 23 Dec 2020, 03:36

Burgerman wrote:24V, 5/8/13A


a ok, 13Amp Thanks
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 23 Dec 2020, 04:19

5A or 8A via XLR. 13A via Anderson connector preferred.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 23 Dec 2020, 05:14

Burgerman wrote:5A or 8A via XLR. 13A via Anderson connector preferred.

Ok, Thanks
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 23 Dec 2020, 14:33

Then in advanced, and user settings.
For gel, like MK, you would set to any Amps that your connection allows, up to 12 via XLR is permitted, and I think that means 8 in this case. But more = BETTER as faster gives longer time at CV overnight for a fuller charge. So 13A via a better anderson connection.
For cyclic use, and long service life Set CV stage at 28.20 volts max, not higher!

Until it has been sat at 28.2V for 8 hours, or until 1000th of capacity in Amps, (so say 75mA to 150mA) point is reached. Whichever occurs first.
Then FLOAT at 27.6V and STORE at 26.8V indefinitely.

It will take 18 to 24 hours to recharge a deeply discharged battery. And around 12 to 16 minimum if partly discharged.

No soft start, no extra stages, no recovery or overvoltage stages, no desulfate, and def no recondition, or de-stratification. Just CC/CV/Float.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 23 Dec 2020, 19:17

Burgerman wrote:Then in advanced, and user settings.
For gel, like MK, you would set to any Amps that your connection allows, up to 12 via XLR is permitted, and I think that means 8 in this case. But more = BETTER as faster gives longer time at CV overnight for a fuller charge. So 13A via a better anderson connection.
For cyclic use, and long service life Set CV stage at 28.20 volts max, not higher!

Until it has been sat at 28.2V for 8 hours, or until 1000th of capacity in Amps, (so say 75mA to 150mA) point is reached. Whichever occurs first.
Then FLOAT at 27.6V and STORE at 26.8V indefinitely.

It will take 18 to 24 hours to recharge a deeply discharged battery. And around 12 to 16 minimum if partly discharged.

No soft start, no extra stages, no recovery or overvoltage stages, no desulfate, and def no recondition, or de-stratification. Just CC/CV/Float.



I will go for the best option that you recommend me to improve the life of my batteries, 24V, 13A with this charger I can do the Cv that you mention? or do I need something additional?

* I am new to this but I want to learn how to improve the life of my batteries, nobody talks to you about this like on this website, I hope to learn and put it into practice
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 23 Dec 2020, 19:39

This is what I need too, right?

How much do you recommend?

- 12 awg silicone wire
- SB50 anderson
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 23 Dec 2020, 19:54

You need a ring terminal on each wire at the battery 24V plus/minus (use a voltmeter). And just enough to reach wherever you mount the anderson connector. You dont need silicone wire for this, just ordinary PVC cable, tinned marine as used on automotove/marine etc. Preferably 4mm2 (up to 10mm2). 4 sq mm cable is plenty for charging. Even 2.5mm will work fine.

Preferably solder connections. Crimp = problems later usually... I crimp them, then solder them.

Also, to make them last longer, you could get the next size up charger, and charge at higher Amps, as a top up during the day when you get a few mins. Like as you eat or check email etc. That way you do still need a full charge daily as well. But it keeps the batts from getting deeply discharged which kills them much faster. They love being full. They hate being deeply discharged.

A similar charger (but up to 25A charge on the MKs) will soon put some power back during the day when you have 30mins or an hour to spare.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK1.pdf
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