PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 23 Dec 2020, 20:21

I will go for the best option that you recommend me to improve the life of my batteries, 24V, 13A with this charger I can do the Cv that you mention? or do I need something additional?


A charger is simple. A 2 or 3 stage charger does the following:

1. It charges at its max Amp level, (or the one you chose so it doesent melt the chairs loom or connecting plug) and the battery voltage is gradually lifted at this CC (Constant Current) stage. This is known as BULK by ignorant people. It does this until the voltage reaches the voltage you have choosen. In the case of the MK gel that is a MAX of 14.1V (28.2V for a pair in series). The battery is about 80% charged.

2. As soon as this voltage is reached, a good charger then HOLDS IT SOLID at this 28.20V level (for your MK gel battery). This is the CV stage. This is Constant Voltage. Also called absorption by dummies. During this time, the battery is gradually pulling less and less amps quite naturally. The Amps will drop from the CC maximum Amp stage, over time, usually 8 hours approx, down to a very low level. When it reaches 8 hours of CV or when this current drops to approx 70 to 140mA, whichever occurs first, the battery is 99% charged. At this point the battery is ALMOST fully charged. Now the battery enters FLOAT.

3.The 3rd stage is another constant voltage stage. But at a lower voltage. It completes the charge over another 8 to 20 hours. Depending on battery type/condition etc. This is typically 13.8V (x2 for 2 batteries in series). Most use 13.5 to 13.6V instead because than it can be left indefinitely connected.

4. But on the victron charger I linked to, theres also a long term storage FLOAT level. An even lower voltage that can be left connected indefinitely. This is around 13.4V per battery. So 26.8V on your MK gel. It keeps te battery from discharging, and doesent charge it. Just keeps it at 100%.

So a 3 stage charge looks like this:
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 23 Dec 2020, 20:31

What do you think of this improved model?

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/do ... AC-EN-.pdf
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 23 Dec 2020, 20:50

Its not an improved one its the waterproof marine one. If it allows the same settings it should be pretty much the same thing.

Heres the PC App. https://updates.victronenergy.com/feeds ... taller.exe
You need this to properly configure a charge algorythm.

Its 12A max power instead of 13. So full power could be used with an XLR plug. Although Anderson is better.

Its in "advanced"... Install and take a look.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby BBPYAH » 23 Dec 2020, 21:10

I already checked the information 13 Amp in Ip65 is only available in 230 to be used in Europe, I am in America banghead Can I use the 12Amp Ip67 can I use that one?

hanged because the Ip65 is only available 24V 5/8A and 12V 4/5/7/10/15A but that is not an option for me czy

Thanks...
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby biscuit » 23 Dec 2020, 23:08

The IP65 is a waterproofing and dustproofing standard (ip=ingress protection, I think) so I don't suppose you really need it. But you could probably find a tableon the internet showing IP67, IP65 etc.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby biscuit » 23 Dec 2020, 23:57

Mind you... They call their chargers IP65, IP22 or whatever, and I simply assume that means their ingress protection levels... Maybe it's not that at all! :oops:
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby woodygb » 24 Dec 2020, 00:19

biscuit wrote:The IP65 is a waterproofing and dustproofing standard (ip=ingress protection, I think) so I don't suppose you really need it. But you could probably find a tableon the internet showing IP67, IP65 etc.


http://www.dsmt.com/resources/ip-rating-chart/
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Swan T.W. » 24 Dec 2020, 21:04

BBPYAH wrote:This is what I need too, right?

How much do you recommend?

- 12 awg silicone wire
- SB50 anderson

Just use their cable extension with ring terminals. No soldering required.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby mkeguy106 » 14 Jun 2022, 21:36

- for DEMANDING use, faster charging, more torque, better at high loads with faster chairs, and with reprogrammed to 'go" chairs, or off road use etc, Use the PC1500 Odyssey battery in place of the Group 24 or 34 batteries you have now. Or the equivalent size to replace what you have. These perform better, but have a marginally worse cycle life in theory. In practice they actually seem to last longer, as most mobility chargers are better suited to charging these than gel batteries. Details and technical here: http://www.odysseybattery.com/documents ... 11_000.pdf Again, http://www.tayna.co.uk keep these. DONT PAY VAT! In the US some of these are re-branded as Die-Hard and other names too. Odyssey are also good and use the same technology, but physically bigger Ah per Ah, so less suitable in a powerchair.


Is this still the general consensus? The Odyssey PC1500s are the way to go for lead batteries? My wheelchair vendor recently replaced my batteries in my P222-SE with Vision Battery EV24 12v75AH. These things are shit. I've never had a problem going all over downtown during the summers until now. I'm losing top end speed, acceleration and wheelchair turning off(if I push it) after a couple of hours. I've never had this problem until these shit EV24 batteries.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 14 Jun 2022, 22:24

Heres the problem.
There are THREE competing things in battery design for traction batteries that we use.

1 Ah or capacity.
2 Cycle life, how long they will last.
3 Internal resistance. Or how they will perform.

If you add Ah, (supposed storage capacity) then you lose some of the other things in 1 or 2 above.
If you reduce internal resistance then you need stronger acid, greater plate area, and so they die faster and have less capacity...
If you want great cycle life, so they last, then you use thick plates, weaker acid, and so less damage and deterioration when deep cycled. But now you lost capacity and internal resistance is worse.

So this is a problem...
In order to not get deterioration with stronger acid, and less deterioration when cycled, you need perfect single metal (nounwanted reactions caused by adding (or including) zinc, tin, platinum, calcium or any number of other metals that make it cheaper to make batteries.
So you want a pure 100% lead, as little interior ground lead paste as possible but thin plates to give better surface area, that are packed very close together. So high energy density.

The best two of these batteries are the Odyssey and the MK Gel.
YOU bought a battery that has too high internal resistance, and so its voltage collapses under load, and it has high peukert levels meaning it gives less range than you expect too. This is extremely common on almost all cheap batteries.

Odyssey PC1500 is not group 34 though. They may make a group 24 which you want now, not looked lately. These can start a truck when almost dead because they have a super low impedance of 2.5mOhm. So no other battery has the same torque or high current capability. Its compromise is its 400 to 450 cycle life. And only 68Ah so a little less than the 74Ah MK. But I use these instead. They have noticibly better torque. My wheelchair can pick up its front wheels even if the battery is half discharged. The MK can only do this when fully charged. And performance drops off a little after this. But the MK can do 550 cycles, is slower to charge, and has 3.5 to 4mOhm. Thats twice as bad. Double the voltage drop under load.

Any battery with more than 4mOhm internal resistance will perform crap! To me. If the chair is not programmed agressively you might never "feel" this. But it appears you have felt this on your own crap batteries.

Problem is that the Odyssey is wider at the top and wot fit in all chairs. The MK is a better match for mr average. Everything else is worse. Unless a clone/rebrand that I saw so far.

Both the odyssey and the MK require the CORRECT individual charge algo, or neither will last long.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby mkeguy106 » 15 Jun 2022, 01:29

Thanks for the thought out reply. I've had 2 P222-SEs over the last 11 years or so. I've never really put in any thought into the batteries. I've just let my wheelchair vendor handle it. The previous tech gave me access to the programmer and I dialed up the acceleration, way back when. It's great to get the front wheels up when there's a bump in the sidewalk coming up. I'm a fairly light guy, so getting the wheels up has always been pretty easy with this chair. Gone through a few motors over the years, but never had this problem with losing acceleration and top end speed after just a few miles.

I'm in IT and build datacenter networks, but never learned about battery tech. So please forgive me if I ask dumb questions.

I'm ok with loosing some cycle life..

Both the odyssey and the MK require the CORRECT individual charge algo, or neither will last long.


But this is concerning. So the Sunrise/Quickie OEM charger won't have the correct charging algo and cut the cycle life even further?
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 15 Jun 2022, 01:59

All cheap non adjustable mobiity chargers are rubbish.

At least all the ones I ever tested and thats at least 12 inc most of he newest.

Heres the problem. How long do you think it takes to FULLY charge andsaturate a lead acid battery?
At 14.1V per battery (gel) and 14.6V for AGM typical, it takes longer than the 8 hours we have overnight. And they never even charge at the right voltage CV stage anyway. Which in itself means you ruin the service life.

A MK gel for e.g takes around 16 to 20 hours minimum to fully saturate the cells. Even if its 98% done after 8 hours. Why does that 2 percent matter? Because as the battery discharges the acid/water electrolyte is changed to lead sulfate which coats the plates. These plates are not solid, but porous, made from lead ground up into paste. The sulfates also coat the lead inside the plates. This is returned to the electrolyte, as you charge. Provided that you allow enough time. As you charge the current drops away in a never ending curve until its only a few mA. So this last part takes foreverIf its ignored then the sulfate turns to larger NON CONDUCTING crystals. And that cannot ever be returned or converted back into sulfuric acid. So do this every day and your battery resistance increases and capacity decreases. The warmer it is, the longer you wait, the worse it gets. You must replace around 105% of every Ah that you take out.

Why is the voltage critical?
A few tenths of a volt too high, and the service life is halved. Gel has bubbles and cracks that dont recover. Too low voltage? Like 13.8V and a full charge can be achieved. But in cyclic use that will take 2 to 3 days. So not very practical.

Now consider that a typical mobiity charger is a one size fits all gel/AGM and has the wrong voltage for either, and gives you a green light after around 4 to 6 hours...

So I charge my Odyssey batteries at 14.6V and at 25, 30, or 40A from either a bench power supply, or a hobby charger etc and do so until the current falls to eiher 1000th of the capacity (so 68mA on a 68Ah odyssey) or after 8 hours CV whichever occurs first. Odyssey charges much faster than MK due to higher voltage and lower resistance (impedance) compared to gel batteries. Doing this will get you 400 to 450 cycles. If I am not using a chair I will set a lower 13.5V and leave connected for a week or so. This removes any sulfation that I miss.

With MK gel same thing, but 25A max, and 14.1V at room temp. Less if warmer. And again 12 hours at CV or 750thC whichever occurs first.

How do you get a charger that does this? You tell me.
I use bench power supplies, or 40A capable hobby chargers.

Why charge at a higher rate? Because it completes the bulk of the charge at high amps fast. Leaving longer for the slow CV stage to complete.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby martin007 » 18 Jul 2022, 12:10

I'm looking for official documentation MK (AGM batteries) that specifies the mV to be compensated based on temperature...
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 18 Jul 2022, 19:12

https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK0.pdf All you need on MK GEL Batteries. Full tech details.
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK1.pdf MK GEL full charge algo details.
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK2.pdf MK GEL and MK AGM (which are crap by the way) differences. Including voltages for float and charge V temp of both types. With gel the correct compensated voltage is important. With AGM its not, they charge safely with a wide voltage range. So not critical. Just choose 14.4V in summer and 14.7V in winter.
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK3.pdf MK GEL SPECS
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK4.pdf SELL SHEET
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK5.pdf SELL SHEET
https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK6.pdf GEL and AGM differences, MK brand.

https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/odyssey.pdf ODYSSEY much lower impedance and better under load than ANY other battery. Fast to charge too.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby ex-Gooserider » 18 Jul 2022, 23:57

Just as a minor note - the Sears DieHard rebranded Odyssey batteries have not been offered for MANY years, they were discontinued long before Sears went bust... I don't know if there are any other rebrands available in the US....

However I will say that the set of the DieHard rebrands I bought at least 8 or 9 years ago are still going strong in my admittedly weedy chair.... I try not to let the controller charge display drop more than the green LED's and frequently charge by plugging into my van.... That they have been lasting so well is one reason I haven't made it a big priority to switch to Lithium, but I will eventually as I never want to buy another set of lead bricks...

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby acid_coke » 26 Mar 2023, 14:42

Can somebody recommend a EU/German seller for Group 34 MK-Gels?
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby jfgutierrez » 30 Apr 2023, 14:21

Before I begin, I would like to thank everyone for the quality information that is extracted after reading the forum.
I have a Sango advanced chair, and after a year of use, the batteries have started to give problems. Surely, I will have to change them shortly and I have in mind a MK 74….

As the access to the batteries is a bit tricky, I would like to wire the chair to be able to mess with the batteries, both together and separately, using Anderson connectors and taking advantage of its advantage of being able to charge with more than 12A

I had thought of wiring the batteries like this schematic:


With such wiring you could:
1.- Charge/Measure the batteries through the XLR connector
2.- Charge/Measure the batteries using an Anderson connector (28.2V)
3.- Charge/Measure each battery using two Anderson connectors at (14,2)
Is this wiring correct?

In addition, I see important to change the charger. I thought to use a victronenergy blue-smart-ip65-charger but I'm not sure whether to choose the victronenergy blue-smart-ip65-charger
24V, 16A, 1 output (more comfortable)
12v, 30A, 3 outputs (more exact and individualized charges)
What is your opinion?
Thank you very much in advance
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 30 Apr 2023, 15:40

Better... https://www.wheelchairdriver.com/faster ... arging.htm

Very old page. This is similar to what you want to do?
Its better than what you show because it allows you to charge both 12V batteries in parallel at 12V and double the current. This makes sure you can use in a vehicle and allow it to charge. Or you can conect a 12V load such as inverter to power something, or to say start a vehicle easily. E.G. # http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/starter.mp4

This means that you can also charge fast via any vehicle if you need a boost at the side of the road at around 50A or so. Both batteries at the same time from a 12V source.

It allows me to charge at 12V in parallel, best way! I use a 50A ZXD charger which is user programable to correctly charge gel or any other battery at 12, 24, or anything you choose. I use the ZXD alone, or in combination wih the PL8 in the event I want to graph, or discharge/test etc. OR as I drive via my vans alternator.

And at 24V series. Again, I use the ZXD alone, at 25A or in combination wih the PL8 in the event I want to graph, or discharge/test etc.

And at up to 12A via XLR connector. With a normal chair charger, or the same ZXD and hobby chargers etc.

As for the victron chargers, they are OK as far as I can see, but I dont have one and so cannot say which one etc.

___________________
Heres an example fitted to another chair I had. You can see here the loop that allows it to be series connected and drive normally. When that loop is unplugged, the chair sees zero volts. And so can be stored a long time without the electronics gradually draining the battery. And nobody can drive it unauthorised either. It allows a series connection at 24V. Or a parallel connection at 12V. With anything up to 100A plus.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby jfgutierrez » 30 Apr 2023, 20:11

Thanks Burgerman. I think I understand, but I'd rather ask and make sure than be wrong. As you tell me, I have to connect the batteries according to the attached diagram and I should make 3 sets of cables that present four possibilities that I can use as they suit me.

Option 1. Without cables. does not close the circuit
The chair does not turn on and does not charge because it does not close the circuit.
You could use the Anderson connectors to handle each battery separately.
It is useful for storing batteries for a long time without being depleted by electronics

Option 2. Close circuit with batteries in series (24v). The chair behaves as from the factory.
The chair turns on and moves while not charging via XLR
Charges to 24 via XLR and stays put as long as you have the XLR jack plugged in.
There is no Anderson advantage.

Option 3. Closes the circuit and adds the possibility of charging the chair at 24V through Anderson.
Add to option 2 the possibility of charging through the Anderson connector at 24V and up to 30 Amp. But, is it dangerous if the chair is accidentally turned on while charging through Anderson? Does the chair move with the Anderson connector charging?

Option 4. Batteries connected in parallel (12v). It does not close circuit.
The chair does NOT turn on or charge through the XLR connector.
The chair charges through the 12V Anderson connector and a 12V charger or directly from the car.
I imagine that it will be possible to get a connection from the lighter connector although it is limited to 15 AMP and that the charge will be safe on a long trip since the alternator is used to constantly charging the battery.

And now to finish.
- And in the case of wanting to put a usb outlet? Would the installation be too complicated?
- What is the charger you use?
- Out of curiosity, you comment in other posts about the possibility of connecting devices using an inverter, but can you move and use the inverter at the same time?

thank in advance
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 30 Apr 2023, 22:23

Option 3. Closes the circuit and adds the possibility of charging the chair at 24V through Anderson.
Add to option 2 the possibility of charging through the Anderson connector at 24V and up to 30 Amp. But, is it dangerous if the chair is accidentally turned on while charging through Anderson? Does the chair move with the Anderson connector charging?

When using a external charger you can use any 24V charger, and yes if you are daft enough you can drive off and drag the charger along with you...
The only thing that stops that is the XLR charger plug, has a link wire inside that connects the 3rd inhibit pin to the negative. So I hang the normal connecting loop over the joystick to remind me never to do that! And it prevents it going missing too.

Theres no 30A limit. I use odyssey batteries normally as they charge faster and give better high current performance. These can be charged at 100A if you want. MK 74Ah ones are in theory best charged at 25A approx. It gives longer for the CV stage so that they get a more complete charge overnight.

What chargers do I use?
Van... (14.0 to 14.3V) as I drive.
SM 3040 Bench power supply. Set to 40A (Max) and to gel 14.1 (28.2V or AGM 14.6V (29.2V) depending on battery Type. This may be for an hour as I eat before going out or whatever. Regular boosts (opportunistic charging) makes batteres last 5x longer at least! Still needs overnight too.
Also use the Telecom rated ZXD bench power supply at the same settings but 50A when I charge in parallel.
I use both of these supplies to power the PL8 charger for detailed PC controlled charging with graphs etc.

Such as these:

TWO 40A bench power supplies... Used with no charger.
THREE PC Controlled PL8 chargers... Powered by the same power supplies when needed.
810_1878.JPG


Then theres the ZXD which is a 0 to 50A and 0 to 60V power supply. Thats enough. But it also has 3 stage charging, so you can set a 0.2A CV stege cut off and then alow it to float at the lower 13.5V or 27.0V.
And again I use these to drive the PL8 when needed. As these charge my lithium chairs and allow me to properly test lead batteries too.
3000 Watts power or a watch battery, lead, lithium or anything else!
810_2311-smaller.JPG
ZXD and PL8...


PL8 graphs etc.

Image2.jpg
Charging a gel battery Volts!

Image1.jpg
Current in amps... Gel.
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby ex-Gooserider » 02 May 2023, 02:06

A couple of minor comments -

It is critical for battery life that the two batteries stay charged to as close to exactly the same level on each battery as possible... If they become unbalanced, when charging at 24V you will end up undercharging one and over charging the other, and this will rapidly kill both....

Therefore:

You ONLY want to charge the batteries at 12V when they are in PARALLEL. DO NOT attempt to charge them individually, as this will cause them to become unbalanced.

NEVER connect any sort of 12V load across just one of the batteries. If you need 12V use a 24-12V DC-DC converter across both to step the voltage down...

BM use SB-50 Andersons on his chairs, which works fine, but seems a bit bulky to me. I use the Anderson PowerPole PP-75 connectors instead. The PP-75's use the same pins as the SB-50's, but are individual shells rather than the paired shells like the SB-50. The shells have dovetails molded into them that allows assembling the 4 into a single block which is more compact and only takes one step to connect instead of two (but does take more effort) Electrically the two methods are identical, it is just a personal preference thing.

As an extra bonus, I added an extra short pair of wires to a PP-15/30/45 connector pair from the otherwise empty 24V terminals on the series jumper plug which allows me to plug in my cordless drill and other 24V stuff while still being mobile.

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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby shirley_hkg » 25 Nov 2023, 05:43


How to nourish a pair of GEL for spare in short please ?
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Re: PINNED - AGM & GEL battery info lead battery info

Postby Burgerman » 25 Nov 2023, 09:54

Charge at 13.35V (26.7V) indefinitely room temperature. Thats float maintainance. In or out of a powerchair.

Or...

Charge at 13.8 overnight once a month if they are disconnected from a powerchair.

Or charge normally at 14.1V for 8 hours every 2 weeks is it is connected to a chair. But dont forget.
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