Prides new Q6 the Edge powerchair

[Burgerman]

http://www.pridemobility.com/pdf/Brochu ... 6_EDGE.pdf Much trumpet blowing and:

Another load of marketing for the same old...

Its a 24 inch wide (with a narrow cushion) "small" indoor only powerchair with small 22NF gel batteries. And no suspension on the skinny drive wheels. Why do they keep on re creating the same old thing? Also lacks ground clearance, has a small (read cheap) controller and does 6mph. So will be short of range and power. Again...

[JoeC]

Do all of these midwheel chairs have the same problem as the Invacare TDX3 (only one I've driven) where they rock forward violently when you stop suddenly? I had to drive that chair to someone who was stranded, and every time I had to slow or stop, it would slam my feet into the ground. Off the top of my head I can't think of a great mechanical solution to that- guess I need to have another look at the X5.

[White Lightnin']

I talked recently with a repairman who said that Pride is now making a chair with a very light tubular frame. I'm thinking the chair pictured in the link is the chair he was referrring to. He tells me that starting in 2011 they will be required to rent chair bases like this one for 13 months before the user is required to buy them. The repairman didn't feel they'd last that long.

The reason for the design is probably the reimbursement system being precipitated by medicare.

For some reason the wheelchair industry has gone to 6 wheel technology.

Because of the type of performance you've cited in your posts and the fact that the 6 wheel chairs have a very high propensity for getting stuck and staying that way, I don't know why anyone would want to buy one of them. Apparently the X5 is an exception to the drawbacks of the 6 wheel design.

More reincarnattions of the same design allows the chair companies to milk as much profit from non recurring development costs invested. As long as the approach is as profitable as any, why not continue to use it?

I'm more than happy to be working on a chair of my own design.

[Burgerman]

But their glossy ads claim to have innovated, and that they listned to users! Which is the worst possible way to design a chair!

The only innovation I can see is bright yellow springs and no actual suspension. Oh and more colours! See they asked physios, health care pros, and end users... No comfortable fat tyresm no sensible sized batteries, no ground clearance, little real outdoor ability, and in fact little change from their other 6 wheel chairs.

And yes like the TDX they either rock back and forth, or they get stuck. Because the castor wheels are sprung with those big adjustable yellow springs onto the floor. If stiff enough then you dont fall forwards. But get stuck all over the place. If loose enough you get stuck less but suffer the problem joeC talks about. And the correct setting is where they are somewhere in between.

But the correct setting takes weight off the drive wheels as they are lifted by the casters pushing into the ground. So you still get stranded uselessly. They are pretty good indoors and this is where 90 percent of users spend the most time hence the popularity. But hopeless in the real outside world.

And once you add a cushion thats as wide as your bum at 18 inches then the tiny batteries they used to get it to 24 inches wide become pointless as its then 25+ across the arms! And measured WITH footplates and rear casters extended its both longer and the same width as my own chair with the full sized batteries and 12 inches of rubber!!!

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/why-all ... apable.htm

[Burgerman]

Found this on the Q6 chair... Basically it is just the same as the rest with lots of extra colours.

http://www.wheelchairjunkie.com/forums/ ... #Post31564

And some marketing. "I know lets release a new chair thats the same as before but with a new name in some new colours! They will never notice..."

This has been going on for so many years - not just with pride but all the manufacturers. No real inovation or improvements in the last 12 years that I can see.

Except maybe in the ibot 3000 and the bug fixed 4000 (does tricks, terrible powerchair) and err... Oh. Thats about it...

Maybe I am getting a bit fed up with the total stagnation when I see technology that is rapidly advancing in the hobby world, car and motorcycle world etc. Maybe I expect too much.
But "extra colours"? LED lights? Push bikes had those 12 years ago... What else? They got its width down from nearly 26 inches to 24. By fitting smaller batteries! Give me strength... Its only 1 inch narrower than my chair and that has full sized batteries and 12 inches of rubber! And my new one will have 100Ah batteries (huge group 31) and STILL be UNDER 25 inches! And shorter too. You have to ask what are they on?

And it has no suspension on its main drive wheels too I think... Just its casters sprung into the ground to stop it falling forwards. Its really a front drive chair with two front casters to stop it toppling forwards.

[Burgerman]

I'm more than happy to be working on a chair of my own design.

This is the thing.

With all their money (not just pride but all the big manufacturers) they achieve LESS than you can in your garage. Its not exactly rocket science its just a powerchair! Its EASY to beat them at their own game on your own. I already beat all the manufactuirers totally with that heavily modified F55 as it does everything better than any big money bought chair. Designed and built In a bedroom by one 50 year old disabled guy...

They are all taking the piss!

[JoeC]

Looking at the WJ thread you linked to, the main points I see on this chair that are a good move in the right direction are the LED lights (why anybody would use anything else on something smaller than a motorcycle in 2010 is beyond me- LEDs are a no-brainer now).

Other than that, it's all just marketing. Marketing bugs the crap out of me. I once had a VP of sales take one of our ideas that we presented as "possible to develop within the next year, given one or two new hires" and sold it to a customer. He walked in and proudly said, "I got their order today! Can you guys deliver in two weeks?" I guess the marketing people feel like they need to do SOMETHING, but for the most part they are so clueless as to be dangerous.

I understand why the wheelchair companies don't innovate. How many people who need powerchairs can put down $10k or more out of pocket? Not many! If a chair has any extra features, or doesn't conform to the norm, then the US insurance companies simply won't pay for them. If you try to buy a chair with wide pneumatic tires, they will say "That's not medically necessary, we're not paying for it."

In fact, in order for my wife's new chair to be capable of more than 6 mph, we are going to have to make an extra out-of-pocket payment to upgrade to a different class of chair. It's definitely a grim time for anyone needing to pay for a powerchair. I don't know if the landscape is similar in the UK, but here in California we are presently having protests and demonstrations because the state government is talking about discontinuing payment for home care, meaning that thousands of people would be forced with the choice of either finding unpaid people to care for them, or they would need to leave their homes to live in nursing homes. I think a total lack of innovation in US powerchairs is just another manifestation of our economic climate.

[Burgerman]

Well whilst most of the above is true here good DESIGN does not nessasarily cost any more. They go to the bother of designing a new frame but still dont get it... Its the same as all the rest. Designed by "users" and healthcare professionals and their requests and comments. The worst possible way to design any device. You need an engineer with vision not a committee of idiots. But users are not engineers! Hence requests for lots of colours for gods sake... They amaze me.

EG The fat tyres I use are so cheap that even including the wheels they cost less than mobility tyres alone! And medically/clinically nessasary? Well the same fat tyres mean that apart from the chair being CHEAPER its better on uneven surfaces. Less rattling side to side. Less sheer forces causing pressure sores and less spasm causing all kinds of problems.

That kind of decision is simply choice. Not a more expensive one either. And if they had the sense to turn the batteries around then theres no need to fit smaller batteries as there is now room for fat tyres AND a narrow chair! And the argument about smaller batteries costing less is incorrect anyway as the higher average depth of discharge on thos small Group 22 batteries means a shorter service life so more needed... Etc.

LED LIGHTS? Every single light in my house is either a 1 or 2 watt warm white LED light, outside floodlights in the driveway and garden are 10 watt ones for years, and on my own powerchair 7 years ago already, had these. They are cheap, readily available and never fail. And they start off at full brightness, use almost no power and never go dim like flourecents... Why even mention normal everyday technology as something new?

[Pete]

http://www.pridemobility.com/pdf/Brochures/Jazzy/Q6_EDGE.pdf Much trumpet blowing and:

Another load of marketing for the same old...

I was reading about this chair the other day and thought exactly the same thing. This chair is hardly anything particularly groundbreaking, as its only claim to fame is that it is an inch or so narrower than the earlier Q6000[Z] series chairs.

It's hard to believe that smaller batteries and an underpowered controller is considered to be a groundbreaking upgrade.

[Burgerman]

The Q600 chair was already narrower and used the same small batteries. Its actually an update of that chair. So its not actually narrower either. Plus there is simply no point in having the base narrower than the seating. Although an inch saved is actually very noticible if you can take advantage of it.

The seating armrests are actually wider than 24 inches as soon as you fit an adult sized cushion.

So this and the 600 chair are really only "better" for kids or very small adults as they are the only ones that can really benefit from going narrower than 25 inches.

And then the small batteries would be ok too. So there own q6000 is a better chair for normal sized adults.

They offer 4 inch wide tyres too. Which are not high floatation big sidewall ones and are just 1 inch wider than stock bone shaker ones. But that leaves it 26 inches wide which is both wider than the q6000 and an inch wider than mine with two 6 inch wide fat tyres.

They just remarketed the 600 for sales and because physios, OTs, and healthcare professionals dont actually understand that seat cushions effect total width and look at specs on paper. They will choose this incorrectly to get fat clients around "tight" houses.

[hippeaux]

After reading this series of posts, regarding the Q6Edge, I feel compelled to point out a couple of things.

The Q6Edge comes standard as a 5mph chair. To reach 6mph you must purchase the optional high-speed motors. That only costs $1,600.00 US.

The LED lighting will cost you $1,000.00 US.

The chair itself, with tilt and recline will be at least $20,000.

Unfortunately, because of how Medicare is formulated, I am limited in selection of both vendor and chair. So the Q6Edge looks to be my next chair. In some ways, it's inferior to my 22 year-old E&J Marathon.

EDIT TO ADD: This chair also uses the smaller Group 22 batteries. No wonder performance appears lackluster.

[JoeC]

I understand that you may be limited to a certain vendor, but are you really limited to only a single chair? It seems that the Quickie S636 or Invacare Torque could also meet your needs. The S636 is normally geared for 6.5mph without any upgrade required, and it uses group 24 batteries. The main drawback with the S636 is the inclusion of those hanging rear casters that hit into things and bang into the ground. It looks like a relatively minor operation to raise them a bit off the ground to minimize the trouble from that.

If you want to put LED lighting on your chair for $1,000 and you live anywhere near me, I'll gladly do it for half the price

[Twinpanther]

I'm running into the same problem as hipp. I may just end up with an Edge myself even though it was hinted at different through my process. According to Medicare, anything over 6mph is considered a class 4 and not covered. I read some folks had their S636 covered but given the deal I got I can't complain. The company I went with took care of all the paperwork, appointments (except for my initial Dr. appt) and even offered me a waiver for my 20%. So, I'm ending up with a Q6Edge with all it's drawbacks, tilt, recline, center footplate (though ugly and big) with a final cost of $26K+ and it isn't costing me a dime. If I didn't have to invest in a van next I'd already be searching for the beginnings of an outdoor chair I could take my time building that truly suits my needs.

[Seajays]

Just more expensive Pride CRAP !!!

[Burgerman]

How on earth does it or any chair end up at that price? Its completely crazy. Is it gold plated?



My BM3 fat tyred lithium powered 15mph chair with approx 3x the range and 3x the power, 10 year battery life, and way superior build and finish will end up at about 3 to 4k pounds or 5 to 6k dollars, built as a ONE OFF chair at full retail price for one component at a time. Admitedly thats with no rehab seating options. But thats just seating. Thats the easy/cheap low tech bit... And this includes a 1200 uk pound or 1700 dollar battery! Fat tyres, and brand new everything.

Someone somewhere is really taking the piss. And the same chairs in the us seem to be about double the cost. There has to be something of a huge rip off of the tax payer going on.

[Burgerman]

If you want to put LED lighting on your chair for $1,000 and you live anywhere near me, I'll gladly do it for half the price

I can do this using high quality motorcycle technology, for about 35 uk pounds or 55 dollars. And it will look and work better! And still make a small profit.

As I said something smells very odd with the us system.

[Burgerman]

22NF batteries will give the same range as bigger full sized batteries with only 5mph motors. And if you are skinny enough to take advantage of this narrower 600 sized chair you will be lighter too hopefully so even the 6mph version will be ok for range.

But I just dont see the "improvements" over the other 600 chairs? Its just same again. All fancy videos, and hype and huge prices. And yet another pride model. They seem to have hundreds, all about 95 percent the same with hard to understand options and names. Smaller casters/bigger casters? Two new chair models... Etc. Endless over complication and options. And parts prices that seem to be about double what I pay. Or more. Its all designed to milk the US system, where "experts" decide what you will get, and a third party pays for it.

The UK has gone completely the other way. I am now on a soon to be available to anyone trial. They pay me cash. I spend it on whatever chair(s) adaptations, or home builds I want. Buying power! This will stop all the pockets getting lined and means real competition. And choice.

[Twinpanther]

Yup, the US takes advantage of anything specialty. Be it medical or hobby or anything in between, the cost will be more simply because of any perceived need.

For instance my daughter just received a medical bill from the hospital for them putting in a pacemaker:
Charges = $89,770.94
Medicare Paid = $18,537.96
Amt she owes = $1,100.00
Amt the hospital will "write off" on their taxes = $70,132.98

It's the same with power chairs for Medicare. They won't pay the $26K+ Pride wants but since Pride wants to sell to those on Medicare (Most of the US market) they are willing to take 22% they offer since it is still profit for them. Anyone not on Medicare probably has another insurance (private or Medicaid) to get it covered and if not they fall through the cracks.

The US system is WAY too over-complicated and I see no solution to that in my or my daughters lifetime.

Here is the process I went through for my approval of my chair:
▶Contact Scooter Store
▶Sent to Family Dr. for Eval
▶Dr. sends in Prescription and paperwork to Scooter Store
▶Scooter Store sends out an OT for eval and measurements
▶OT sends paperwork to Scooter Store and their med staff decide weather to take next step or not.
▶If yes, they send to a PT for eval and mobility check
▶PT fills out more of the same paperwork.
▶If EVERYTHING matches up and all the Dr's agree and it fits into the guidelines (Medicare or otherwise) you are approved and your chair is built and delivered in about 3 weeks

[JoeC]

If you want to put LED lighting on your chair for $1,000 and you live anywhere near me, I'll gladly do it for half the price

I can do this using high quality motorcycle technology, for about 35 uk pounds or 55 dollars. And it will look and work better! And still make a small profit.

As I said something smells very odd with the us system.

Sorry, I was implying that I would make quite a large profit

[woodygb]

So, I'm ending up with a Q6Edge with all it's drawbacks, tilt, recline, center footplate (though ugly and big) with a final cost of $26K+

Seems to be a lot of price variation / fixing...

MSRP: $6,308.00

http://www.bachmedicalsupply.com/Pages/ ... hairs.html

[Twinpanther]

Seems to be a lot of price variation / fixing...
MSRP: $6,308.00

Unfortunately you can't see what they charge for the extras like seating/lifts/recline/non-basic controller/ect... Might be a "Get ya in the door" price.

Trust me, if it's an American company you aren't gettin' it out the door for that price, lol.

[woodygb]

I understand the "added extra's" con ... but another $20,000 is criminal ...

BTW
The 6 mph "upgrade" is a

21.3:1 GEAR RATIO GEARBOX

160 rpm
rather than the standard 5 mph

26.8:1 GEAR RATIO

125 rpm
Controllers are perhaps differentboth ....CONTROLLER,NE,CURTIS,ASSY,75 AMP,/90 amp

motors stay the same.

MOTOR,DRIVE,E868,3600 RPM,

[hippeaux]

If y'all are interested in prices for the Q6Edge and accessories, then download this pricing pdf.

http://www.pridemobility.com/includes/downloadorderforms.php?f=Quantum_Rehab/US_Quantum_Q6_Edge_SP_MP_Order_Form.pdf

[Burgerman]

Sorry, I was implying that I would make quite a large profit

I got that! But I was thinking about other readers, those less knowlegable ones, that dont post here. I wanted them to realise the real cost of LED lights! They are almost free!

I have equiped my entire house with low watt LED lights. There are now NO other lamps here. Outdoors, 8x 10w floodlights, = to 200 watt quarts halogen each. Indoors all are 2.1 watt or 4 or 7 watt led lights. No florecent, no incandecent anywhere. These are about 2x as efficient as florecents and 10x as efficient as incandecent.

They last indefinitely, start of instantly, dont need warm up, and cost so little I seldom turn any off. Just make sure you get warm white... http://popular.ebay.com/business-indust ... lights.htm

[hippeaux]

I understand that you may be limited to a certain vendor, but are you really limited to only a single chair? It seems that the Quickie S636 or Invacare Torque could also meet your needs. The S636 is normally geared for 6.5mph without any upgrade required, and it uses group 24 batteries. The main drawback with the S636 is the inclusion of those hanging rear casters that hit into things and bang into the ground. It looks like a relatively minor operation to raise them a bit off the ground to minimize the trouble from that.

If you want to put LED lighting on your chair for $1,000 and you live anywhere near me, I'll gladly do it for half the price

Well, gosh, Joe... you're all heart! I may take you up on that! Or maybe I'll just duct-tape a flashlight to my head instead.

[JoeC]

It's true that you could spend some real money on LED lights, but look what you can get for $700 retail, geared toward bike enthusiasts who are probably riding around on carbon fiber and/or titanium:

http://www.rei.com/product/826131/niter ... bike-light

3,000 lumens, computer programmable, and a lithium pack that lets it run for an hour and a half at full brightness. If you look at that site, most of the other premium bike lights are under $200.

A pair of 300 lumen flashlights, some nice clamps, a DC/DC converter to run to your main batteries, and a switch with safe wiring could probably all be had for well under $200, and then it's just labor to assemble and install, and it would be loads brighter than what I personally use on my bicycle. Enough to see where you're going, and to very belligerently signal your presence to motorists.

[Twinpanther]

Well, gosh, Joe... you're all heart! I may take you up on that! Or maybe I'll just duct-tape a flashlight to my head instead.

Here ya go. Combine both ideas!!!

[Twinpanther]

What is your opinion of this 3-Mode 900-Lumen LED Bike Light Set?

900 lumen LED, lithium batteries and charger for under $80. Decent reviews on that site and others.

[JoeC]

Looks decent.

I'm catching myself though, and I have to say- this thread has wandered WAY off topic.

[Burgerman]

Seems to happen a lot here... But mostly interesting!