Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

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Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby lewisriverred » 12 Aug 2014, 04:55

After reading through soooo many posts... I'm realizing it's time to start posting my own rebuild project. Here's a good pic of me with Garfunkel & Garbanzo.
Image
My X4 has been hands down the best mobility device I've ever purchased. I've taken it EVERYWHERE! I think I got it in 2004 or 5. 10 years of off-road accessibility has really been great... life changing... or enabling really.
So to not have the chair is really bad. Bad for my wife too cause she's been having to take the garbage out!

My plan at first was to just call the rep and get a tech out to check things out, hopefully get er fixed up. Boy I was delusional.
To make a long story short...
1. I hate the whole manufacturer > distributor > rep > customer thing.
2. Submerging the motors, power module, and batteries in saltwater is bad.

I eventually want to build a BM inspired 4x4 chair at some point, but for now I just want to get back out on the trails as soon as possible. I've already learned so much by just taking things apart. Actually my first lesson... I should have only taken off the brake that was giving me problems. Instead I took off all four :shock: But not all bad... turns out the motors are shot. Well at least that's what Innovation in Motion is telling me.

From what I understand, all four motors, when testing resistance, should be at 100 Ohms. The back two motors also have a parking brake which also should be at 100 Ohms.
After a little YouTube learning about DC Multimeters, I tested them. Here's my findings.

Motor Ohms
Front left .9
Front right .9
Back right .7
Back left 1.1

Parking Break Ohms
Back left 50.4
Back right 2.8

All of these were tested with the multimeter set to 200. I think that's the right setting.

So, the Ohms tested REALLY low. Why would this be? If I wanted to rebuild these motors with new parts from Fracmo, what parts do I need to order?
Here's a picture of the motor sticker.
Image

Thanks all for your input. Also, I'd love to do more testing but I don't know what to test. Any suggestions are welcome.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby rollingcowboy » 12 Aug 2014, 05:05

hey - welcome to the board.
you will get all the help you need here
10 years is a pretty good run for any power chair
salt water is tuff on everything!
goats! - can be fun pets - and ornery too. once had a neighbor that raised them, they were always trying to butt me.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby LROBBINS » 12 Aug 2014, 08:35

Those resistance values for the motors actually look about right - a decent 24V motor will have a winding resistance measured in MILLIOHMS, not ohms, and about 100 milliohms is in the ballpark. 50.8 ohms for the left rear brake (100 ohms would be entirely too high) is also a correct value, but the right rear does seem to have a short, either in the coil or the wiring. I am not a FRACMO motor fan and one weak design area to check is the brush holders - the pigtail is just a friction fit and not soldered. I had one that was intermittent even from new.

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby woodygb » 12 Aug 2014, 14:48

Have a look at this guide .

http://www.invacare.ca/canada/online_ed ... ROUBLE.pdf

I'd probably start off with disassembling the motors completely ... giving them a good wash / clean and thorough drying ... then a spray with some sort of contact cleaner / lubricant ... e.g. .. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brand-Servisol- ... B000KHE1D0 ... ( picked at random )

You MIGHT have joy getting new brushes etc from Fracmo. ... but ...should you decide to rebuild the motors ...purchase and fit new STAINLESS sealed bearings from a online bearing supplier.

http://www.fracmo.com/english/spares.htm
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby rlnguy » 13 Aug 2014, 14:31

Just a thought-If you're uncertain about your ability to take them apart (and get them back together)-there are a some really good motor rebuild shops in Portland-not being "wheelchair" shops, they tend to work more economically. I lived and worked in Portland for many years, and used them for repairing any unusual motors that came through our shop. They had the tools and inventory, and expertise to do the work in less time then I could. About the only time they had trouble was if the gears were worn beyond reusing.
Good luck
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby lewisriverred » 16 Aug 2014, 18:16

I got the brake off the back right motor and now I'm looking for a replacement. Aside from the durable medical equipment stores around, does anyone know where I can buy the electromagnetic parking break seen in the picture below?
Its off a Fracmo DC Motor
Image
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby woodygb » 16 Aug 2014, 18:53

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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby LROBBINS » 16 Aug 2014, 21:55

You might want to also write to FRACMO - there's an e-mail address in the site Woody linked - to ask if they have brake assemblies, or just the coil, for the brake used on this motor. The coil certainly looks "cooked". BTW, when you reassemble, the screws have to be adjusted to give the right clearance. You might want to use a feeler gauge to measure this on the other brake. Otherwise, it's a fair bit of trial and error to get the right distance so that it clicks in cleanly and releases. Too loose and it won't pull in. Too tight and it won't release.
Ciao, Lenny
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby lewisriverred » 19 Aug 2014, 20:08

Finally found some time to open up the Fracmo motor to see what was inside. Its clear to me now why it needs some cleaning. Attached are a few pictures. The plan right now is to get new brushes and bearings from Eurtonhttp://store.eurtonelectric.com/.

The electromagnetic break assembly is about to be ordered from Nu-Motion (used to be United Seating). I still don't know the cost! They move about as slow as molasses. Attached are a few pictures.

Is it normal for one of the brushes to be missing its spring?
Fracmo_Brushes.jpg
Missing spring?
Fracmo_Brushes.jpg (141.56 KiB) Viewed 13713 times


This bearing doesnt seem to bad. Should I replace anyways?
Fracmo_Bearing.jpg
Fracmo_Bearing.jpg (244.78 KiB) Viewed 13713 times
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby lewisriverred » 19 Aug 2014, 20:31

lewisriverred wrote:
Is it normal for one of the brushes to be missing its spring?


Ha. The missing spring was on the floor :lol:
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby woodygb » 19 Aug 2014, 20:39

Why are you buying the bearings from Eurton? ...they'll have a number on them and can be bought off the shelf from any decent bearing supplier.

I'd also suggest that you consider using sealed bearings rather than shielded.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby Burgerman » 19 Aug 2014, 20:40

For some reason the brushes seem to be running too close to the motor windings and it has cut a step into them. Best find out why. Clean copper commutator up with fine wet and dry. By spinning it and holding a strip of paper on it. Don't go mad just clean it so its all shiny copper and give it a wipe with a clean cloth. Replace bearings with rubber sealed type.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby LROBBINS » 19 Aug 2014, 20:48

Have you asked eurton for an estimate for rebuilding the motors - including the brakes? If they do the work, they will have "growled" the armature, trued the commutator, replaced the brushes and bearings and either the entire brake assemblies of the failed parts. They may even be cheaper for a full rebuild than just getting the brakes from Nu-Motion. Also, I'd second what RLNGUY suggested. There are surely electric motor repair shops in the Portland area who are well used to doing this kind of work. Here's one right in Vancouver, WAhttp://www.whitepages.com/business/scottys-electric-motor-repair-vancouver-wa
and here are several that come up in a search for "electric motor repair and rebuilding" for Vancouver, WA and Portland, OR.http://www.whitepages.com/business?utf8=%E2%9C%93&key=electric+motor+repair+and+rebuild&where=Vancouver%2C+WA
It might be worth a few phone calls to see if any of those shops are interested in the job, and what they'd charge to bring all four motors to "as new" condition.
Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby woodygb » 19 Aug 2014, 20:53

The bearing number on the armature is in fact a sealed type.

6002-2RSH

http://www.bearing-king.co.uk/bearing/6 ... 3-skf/4202

The brushes do indeed seem to have been cut by the armature ...missing washer on assembly?
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby woodygb » 19 Aug 2014, 21:02

Was there a wave washer under the bearing?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=beari ... 59&bih=659


Image
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby woodygb » 19 Aug 2014, 21:08

Closer inspection of the brush holder pic seems to show the that they are also being worn away?
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby ex-Gooserider » 20 Aug 2014, 06:09

IMHO bearings and brushes and similar consumable type parts inside a motor are "Flotation Test" items - As defined by a Guzzi mechanic that had a really great book on the details that the factory didn't always make clear... "Flotation Test" - throw part in bucket of water - if it sinks replace it....

Also sometimes known as the "Vision Test" - if you can see it, replace it...

The basic concept is to ask how much the part costs to replace compared to the cost of getting to it (either in dollars or simple frustration / work time) If the part is cheaper, it's better to replace and reduce the odds of needing to go back in to fix it...

I would also second the notion of going to a motor rebuilder, as that also presumably will get you some level of guarantee, and at least the fact that a person with a reputation at stake has said it's right....

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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby lewisriverred » 20 Aug 2014, 21:13

Yeah there was a wave bearing. I'm learning a lot by opening up these motors and seeing how they run.

I'm going to take the advice and run the motors in to Scotty's today and get a quote. I gave them a call and they seem pretty confident about bringing the motors back to "as new."
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby lewisriverred » 31 Jan 2015, 04:30

I was hoping to have posted more during the Extreme F rebuild process but here are a few from along the way.
Image

Long story short, I had all the steel sandblasted and powder coated to stop more corrosion from the saltwater rust. Then I replaced the bearings, bushings and all the bolts, washers, and screws that put it back together. We also remade the wiring harness that connects the two twelve volt batteries to the DX power module.

Beautiful really. But when I plugged in the joystick I was still getting a fault code. I don't really remember which one, but after getting some video of what was happenning, the tech from Innovation in Motion recommended I get the control module UCM board rebuilt. I think this helped because when I got the joystick back and tested it out the first time, it drove really nicely.

But it didnt last long. As soon as I tried to turn while in reverse, the chair powered off and wouldn't turn on. Dead. I had the chair charging all night so I know it wasn't dead batteries. After 5 minutes or so I could press the power button and at least see the fault code. Its flashing a 10. This is a short in the CANH line, which I really have no idea how to go about fixing.

I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction to getting this sorted out. As of right now when I power the chair up the drive mode is on constantly (no more flashing), the status light if flashing a 10, and the battery power level light it only showing one red.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby LROBBINS » 31 Jan 2015, 08:40

A bad CAN-H line probably means a bad DX-Bus cable (though it could be internal to a module) and most likely a cable that has gotten pinched. Do a slow visual inspection and pass each cable through your fingers. If you can't spot the problem that way, unplug the cable and do continuity tests between the pins in each plug and between plugs. There should be no connection between any two pins on the same plug, and always be a connection between the same pins on opposite plugs.

A warning is in order though: jiggling a damaged cable might "adjust" things so that it works for a bit, but that's not exactly a real fix.

Consider getting a spare set of cables. Best source in the U.S. will probably be Rosstron - http://www.rosstron.com/

How, in the end, did you get your motors rebuilt?

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby Williamclark77 » 31 Jan 2015, 15:15

I'm sorry but I am no help on the error code issue. I don't know anything about it. I would like to see more photos of the frame from your rebuild if you have any. I've always wondered what those chairs used for a steering servo too.

It looks good and probably now in as good or better shape than when you got it! Looks nice too.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby c5tiger » 31 Jan 2015, 16:22

William, the chair does not have a servo or anything else to steer, it uses difference in wheel speed to steer. To turn left the front left wheel slows down and the front right speeds up causing the front wheels to turn left. The rear tires also change speed in a turn to match ground speed to keep from disturbing carpet and rugs in the house if you were to ever use it inside. All this works fine going forwards but very poorly in reverse.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby rover220 » 31 Jan 2015, 18:56

carefully check the pins/sockets in the dx lead plugs. i have seen these snap off or become damaged from rough handling.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby Williamclark77 » 31 Jan 2015, 23:34

c5tiger wrote:William, the chair does not have a servo or anything else to steer, it uses difference in wheel speed to steer. To turn left the front left wheel slows down and the front right speeds up causing the front wheels to turn left. The rear tires also change speed in a turn to match ground speed to keep from disturbing carpet and rugs in the house if you were to ever use it inside. All this works fine going forwards but very poorly in reverse.

Thank you for that reply. I have always wondered that since seeing them. I would not have guessed that approach.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby lewisriverred » 01 Feb 2015, 03:13

I just tried a brand new DXBUS cable. Still getting the same fault code 10, the first battery light is flashing, and the drive mode is flashing as well. I've never seen anything in any Dynamic manual about the drive mode flashing. I'm hoping this isn't the sign that the joystick is toast again. Its brand new! Well its most likely refurbished.

All four motors were rebuilt at Scotty's in Vancouver, WA. They're awesome. They replaced the electric parking break that was all burnt out. I purchased that part through Numotion for about $350.

What would be great is if there was a confident tech in my area that could get this thing going. I miss the off-road :D

I'm almost thinking about going ahead and buying the the Roboteq controler I need to replace the dynamic set-up but I'm not sure exactly which one to get. If anyone knows what would work with the four motor setup, I'd be ready to set this up with a more open source control system. I've even been playing with an Arduino to get better at my programming. Is there programming out there that would work?

So until then, hopefully the guy at Innovation in Motion will be able to take this joystick back and rebuild it again if that's the case. Thanks everyone for input.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby c5tiger » 01 Feb 2015, 03:30

I have had to get my joystick sent off twice to get fixed and as soon as I charge the chair the joystick starts acting up. It is acting up now and if I were to ever get it fixed again I would not charge it through the joystick because I think that is what is messing mine up. My on off button is what stops working, so I have to unplug the wire from the joystick and plug it back in to turn the chair to on. It is a pain but not worth shipping it back off again.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby LROBBINS » 01 Feb 2015, 08:25

Am I understanding you correctly that the fault only appears just after charging and goes away after it's been used for a while? If so, here are another couple things to check:

(1) Is your battery charger going to a higher voltage than it should? From memory only, highest voltage during charge should be something like 29.4V for AGM, lower for gel. During float (last part of the charge cycle) it should be 28.8V (AGM), 28.2 (gel, though most chargers still use higher for gel to speed things up at the cost of reduced life). Maybe the problem is the charger.

(2) Do you have access to an OEM level programmer? Perhaps when they set up your joystick (or just sent you another without programming it first!) they left the high voltage limit set too low. In the DX most of the "smarts" are in the handset.

Do you have just the handset and power modules on your chair, so just 1 DX-bus cable?

Ciao,
Lenhy
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby Burgerman » 01 Feb 2015, 12:09

(1) Is your battery charger going to a higher voltage than it should? From memory only, highest voltage during charge should be something like 29.4V for AGM, lower for gel. During float (last part of the charge cycle) it should be 28.8V (AGM), 28.2 (gel, though most chargers still use higher for gel to speed things up at the cost of reduced life). Maybe the problem is the charger.


Gel 28.2 CV stage then drop to 27.2 float.
AGM 28.8 CV stage then drop to 27.2 float.
Pure Lead (Optima, Odyssey) 29.4 CV stage then drop to 27.2 float.

After full charge all systems should be 12.9 to 13.2v per battery ready to use. About 26V total.

Dynamic errors at 32V. PG drives error at 35V.
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby LROBBINS » 01 Feb 2015, 12:50

John, thanks for correcting my numbers.

Multiply John's numbers like 13.6 by 2, those are for a single battery not a pair in series. More I'm thinking about this, more I'm suspicious that he's got a runaway charger.

Ciao,
Lenny
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Re: Magic Mobility Extreme F Rebuild

Postby Burgerman » 01 Feb 2015, 13:16

Yes oops! My 13.6 was for 1 battery! 27.2V for both.

Actually I will correct it now.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK3.pdf gel
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/MK-AGM.pdf AGM
http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/odyssey.pdf odyssey pure lead
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