advice needed on ancient powerchair!

[duke1]

hi im new here so thanks for having me,to start i will say i am a mechanic by trade so have a fare understanding of vehicle electrics but recently i have bought a wheelchair for my disabled wife the chair was an ebay purchase and less than £100 it was advertised as "carters cheetah g24 powerchair" the manufacturers label says gunter meier gmbh and was i believe built in 1985 but has later updated motors and main controller which is an action mcc mk111 with keyboard for programing as in the pics if i can work out how to post them!my problem is this i washed the chair being carefull so i thought not to wet the electronics,well now when i switch it on the green led flashes continuous and the controler is showing a fault on the rh motor wiring connector which i have checked and tested and can find no fault with i have tried everything i can think of dried all the connections(though none appear wet)disconected and reconnected the batterys and still have the same fault i have no manual and cant find any usefull help on invacare boards being as the chair is so old,anyone who could help in any way would be great as my missus is livid with me and i will get no peace till i fix it!thanks

[woodygb]

http://www.invacare.com/parts/archived_ ... istory.pdf

page 11 ?

[duke1]

http://www.invacare.com/parts/archived_pdfs/4_Electronic_History.pdf

page 11 ?

hi yes thats the one but i can find no info on setting it up or canceling fault codes etc i guess its a bit of an oddball but maybe other invacare chairs use this same control but im finding info very thin on the ground and invacare most unhelpful they couldnt even find the cheetah listed but im told there is a tool for reprogramming but they dont do them anymore,to be honest if it wasnt in such amazing condition i would have given up by now but this chair is so comfy and goes anywere she wants it to,without it she is very unhappy!i cant believe all i did was wash it,carefully and now it says there a fault which as far as i can see doesnt exist,on a car we would reset the ecu i guess there must be a way if only i can find it i hate guessing and pressing!maybe someone will remember such a thing but im out of ideas,thanks for answering

[Burgerman]

I suspect the washing was just a coincidence. They are designed to get rained on or splashed.

[popschief]

My thoughts exactly. Something might have been knocked loose with the scrub brush.

bp

[LROBBINS]

I have no knowledge of that chair or that controller, but if the error code says right motor connector and that connector also has the brake wires here's something to check.

Many chairs have a freewheel lever that disengages the parking brake and/or the gearcase. Often, that lever also works a microswitch that opens an "inhibit" wire to keep you from driving if the brakes are disactivated. It is possible that you just moved a freewheel lever a little bit or that the linkage to that microswitch is out of whack. Take a careful look at what those levers do, or should do, and make sure that the switch is fully engaged, either pushed or released for "OK to go" depending on the particular design.

Ciao,
Lenny

[woodygb]

http://www.invacare.ca/canada/online_ed ... ROUBLE.pdf

[duke1]

hi all well thanks for the replies i have now checked every connector and all are spotless and no baggy ones so i guess i will take of the motors and check the microswitches if there are any as the motors have to be removed to gain access to any covers i guess it would be worth sticking new brushes in while its apart if there still available now,im praying its something i can figure out as there no way i can afford a profesional,im nothing if not persistent and will work it out eventually thanks again and i will post any news

[woodygb]

Duke ...Please add a location to your profile.

[LROBBINS]

You can check function of the brakes (and switches) without taking out the motors by using an ohmeter as shown in that maintenance primer that Woody linked. In some systems, the linkage that works the microswitch is not inside the motor or brake assembly, so look before you leap.
Ciao,
Lenny

[woodygb]

and the controler is showing a fault on the rh motor wiring connector

... swap the motor leads over at the controller plug/socket ..if the R.H. motor error becomes L.H motor error....then you know it's the motor/wiring after the controller plug that is causing the problem...rather than a controller fault.

[duke1]

and the controler is showing a fault on the rh motor wiring connector

... swap the motor leads over at the controller plug/socket ..if the R.H. motor error becomes L.H motor error....then you know it's the motor/wiring after the controller plug that is causing the problem...rather than a controller fault.

thanks i will try it and see what happens the link was very good and i will have a good read up i just hope i can figure it out as the missus hates the spare chair as it hurts her over rough ground as its old and has no suspension but atleast it works!
the funny thing is i bought this chair in the first place to use the motors and control gear on a project build using alloy chassis and building it to suit her lifestyle my thinking being to build something similar to burgermans bm chair but lighter and hopefully with better range using smaller batterys ie 33ah as in her smaller chair the trouble was i let her use it whilst gathering the bits and she fell in love with it and now wont let me break it!i have a mig welder and am learning to weld ali then there will be no stopping me!thanks again all for help.

[ex-Gooserider]

Note that welding aluminum is VERY sketchy if the item is load bearing... Stuff like chair frames are usually heat treated after construction, and the heat treat is what gives the aluminum a LOT of its strength. Look up the difference in 6061 alloy (the most common stuff) between "T-0" and "T-6".... T-0 is what you get when you heat aluminum and remove the temper, while T-6 is probably one of the most common treatment grades. If you buy a sheet or extrusion of aluminum at the local store, it will almost certainly be 6061 T-6 unless you specify a different alloy (and pay a premium for it)

T-6 is tough stuff - they make the buckles on my climbing gear out of it (if those buckles fail, I turn into a grease spot...) T-0 is sometimes compared to butter....

Often the problem isn't so much the weld itself (though making good welds on aluminum is tricky at best) as in the "heat effected zone" or the metal next to the weld. Unless you re-treat the ENTIRE piece, the area next to the weld is going to be soft and weak...

It is enough of a problem that the pedal bike folks here at the Artisan's Asylum maker space class aluminum bike parts as "non-repairable" - this includes our TIG welding instructor, who builds Titanium bike frames as his day job...

So be careful about welding on aluminum chair frames...

ex-Gooserider

[duke1]

hi ex gooserider the ali is good quality and i have a very good tutor with bags of experience tbh the only ali welding i have done before was on landrovers and they are horrid to weld being some 30-40 years old and many built from recycled aircraft !my hope is to become qualified welding structural stuff and maybe make a small business out of it,this only occured to me after trying to find a local welder to do work for me,this was harder than i thought and the few that exist charge lots for very little work also its something i can do from home and still be around to care for my tina.the first will be purely experimental and use all 2nd hand bits that i have collected over the last few months,if nothing else it will help to keep me sane and a bit less bored!titanium is an interesting material but i fear maybe to expensive for me.
well the damn chair still says the same this morning so im of to try investigate further,thanks for posting.

[duke1]

hi all well i tried swapping the left and right connectors and still it shows a rh motor fault,does anyone have any other ideas or knowledge about this type of control box?ie would there be any method for deleting fault codes from the memory?am i right in thinking one needs a remote unit that plugs in on top of the box to make any real changes or can it be done via the built in keyboard?any help would be great,thanks again and burgerman this is a great little forum you have here.

[woodygb]

Unfortunately a physical fault cannot be rectified by programming.... if it's electronic then the controller probably needs replacing ( almost ANY complete system could be used with your existing motors ) ... it is however worth taking the lid off to have a poke around.

I'sd suggest having a REALLY GOOD LOOK at the R/H plug and wiring ... the plug blades should pop about if you can depress the leaf spring THEN gently push or pull the connector from it's housing.



If you lift the lid on the control box you could check for continuity from the controllers board to the plug/socket.

[duke1]

hi all well i think its is the main controller at fault as even after replacing the connectors the same fault is still scrolling the screen,so i have been looking and found this would this be a suitable replacement?i hope its ok to post this is the ebay number of the one i found if anyone thinks its a good deal please speak out!thanks 261684890935

[woodygb]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261684890935? ... 26_rdc%3D1

That is fine as far as it goes...BUT ...you also need a joystick pod and the proprietary ( expensive ) cable to connect the two.

[duke1]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261684890935?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D261684890935%26_rdc%3D1

That is fine as far as it goes...BUT ...you also need a joystick pod and the proprietary ( expensive ) cable to connect the two.

hi i also found this and have seen others post about roboteq and i think its a good price but is it right for the chair?i will have to replace the joystick i guess whatever way i go but what do you reckon to this again this is ebay number ( 171562952288 )thanks for your advice again

[woodygb]

I'd not go with that Roboteq....but it's your choice.

For a quick/easy fix I'd suggest this VSi as it's an all in one controller and joystick.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/spare-part-VS ... 27f1cdbe58

For a complete chair with a VSi controller ..but you take a risk as it's spares or repair ...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wheeltech-Ene ... 1505249193

[duke1]

I'd not go with that Roboteq....but it's your choice.

For a quick/easy fix I'd suggest this VSi as it's an all in one controller and joystick.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/spare-part-VS ... 27f1cdbe58

For a complete chair with a VSi controller ..but you take a risk as it's spares or repair ...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wheeltech-Ene ... 1505249193

the complete chair is tempting but as you say a risk so the vsi i think will be the answer thanks,what can i do with all the empty space created when removing that big box,mmm maybe a small tray for a spare inner tube and fuses or somewhere to hide her purse!at this rate it will be very much lighter by the time im finished thanks again i will keep you posted with progress and doubtless will have more questions!

[woodygb]

BTW ...the 3 pin plug is for a lights module ... ignore it.

[LROBBINS]

Another thing to try just in case it was the water. Open up the controller and open up the joystick, fill them with uncooked rise and set them in a warm, dry place or a heating pad on low for a few days. Shake out the rice, close up the boxes and see if the problem's gone away.
Ciao,
Lenny

[duke1]

BTW ...the 3 pin plug is for a lights module ... ignore it.

just a thought but would the chair still be a 6mph using the vsi controller?anyone?thanks

[woodygb]

The speed will be the same as it's volts dependent .... the power/torque however depends on the Amps.

You could ask the VSi's vendor for it's amps rating ... but they may not know ... do you even know the amps rating of the Action controller?

I did have a look at the chair that the controller is purported to be from on the web ...I don't really foresee any great problems.

[flagman1776]

When I worked in Marine (boat) Electronics, we often cleaned circuit boards of salt residue & dampness with rubbing alcohol on a Q tip. Opening the case to let moisture out helps... in a warm dry atmosphere, too. A heat lamp or simple bulb / reflector (clamp light) can work.
We had an old fashoned pump room at our (water) well that needed to be kept above freezing... this insulated room was heated by a pair of 60W light bulbs.

[duke1]

hi flagman well i have removed the controller opened it up and put it in the boiler cupboard overnight i think its worth a shot as whats the worst it will do and just maybe it might god willing work!if not i will have to get the vsi controller and use that as i cant find another like this action mk111 fingers well and truly crossed!thanks

[woodygb]

Duke ...Should you wish to program the VSi just say and the board will advise / guide you

[duke1]

Duke ...Should you wish to program the VSi just say and the board will advise / guide you

hi well i put the controller back together today after spending the night in the warmth of the boiler cupboard but its still showing the same fault so i am ordering the vsi today and will doubtless have a few more questions!thanks again all for the advice

[duke1]

hi all well the vsi arrived today and after some grinding and drilling i got it to fit the existing bracket work but mounted slightly different bringing it inboard to where it no longer sticks out the side as well as the front i got the missus to sit in the chair and worked it to be a perfect fit for her use.
as expected the connectors are different altogether so i took the plunge and chopped of the existing connectors on both the loom and the new controller and will shortly attempt fitting 2 new andersons as per burgermans style and have some good waterproof copper bullets for the brake wires all soldered and shrink coated on completion my only question so far is is the length of the cables from the vsi to the rest a critical length or can i shorten the run as its a lot longer than needed?thanks for any help again.