Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 28 Sep 2015, 11:04

jonv wrote:
Burgerman wrote:
What about trying to use Headaway cells in 24 group casing , and would that work on something like the travelscoot ?


Wont fit. And a travelscoot
is a portable with a tiny battery.

What if I used a couple of 6s lipo packs ,I'm assuming I would I need to change controller in the liteway as well so it had a built-in cut-off ?
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Burgerman » 28 Sep 2015, 17:23

Lipo voltage is 3.7v so you need 7 series. But they burn, explode, offer a very low cycle life and so are unsuitable.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 28 Sep 2015, 20:01

Burgerman wrote:Lipo voltage is 3.7v so you need 7 series. But they burn, explode, offer a very low cycle life and so are unsuitable.

But their using these things in electric skateboards / scooters that kids use , why would they take such risks given the potential lawsuits etc ? (( confused ))
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Burgerman » 28 Sep 2015, 21:27

Are they?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DcpANRFrI4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EseOhC8n7ro

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +explosion more...

I use these things for hobby use. Have seen lots go off for no real reason, and a fellow hobyists car destroyed. Threw one that started to swell up out of the sporthall door last year just in time.

Theres big differences between:
LiPo -- Short lived, high power, dangerous, high C rate, light, small.
LiFe -- Safe. 2000 cycles or 10 years plus if treated well, less energy dense, lowwer C rate.
LiIon -- In between performance, and can still burn on occasion, hence recalled phones and laptops, used in phones, laptops, cameras etc. These have 500 cycles. Or 1 to 3 years.

You will be lucky to see 100 cycles from a lipo. But 2000 from a LiFePO4.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby ex-Gooserider » 29 Sep 2015, 01:49

jonv wrote:
Burgerman wrote:Lipo voltage is 3.7v so you need 7 series. But they burn, explode, offer a very low cycle life and so are unsuitable.

But their using these things in electric skateboards / scooters that kids use , why would they take such risks given the potential lawsuits etc ? (( confused ))


One of the big things to keep in mind is that an able bodied user can RUN AWAY from a burning skateboard - we generally can't....

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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 29 Sep 2015, 05:32

ex-Gooserider wrote:
jonv wrote:
Burgerman wrote:Lipo voltage is 3.7v so you need 7 series. But they burn, explode, offer a very low cycle life and so are unsuitable.

But their using these things in electric skateboards / scooters that kids use , why would they take such risks given the potential lawsuits etc ? (( confused ))


One of the big things to keep in mind is that an able bodied user can RUN AWAY from a burning skateboard - we generally can't....

ex-Gooserider


Yes , theres that too though you must adnit the idea of going to Valhalla via flaming wheelchair or scooter is kind of impressive
compared to some wet hole your just dumped in.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 29 Sep 2015, 05:35

Burgerman wrote:Are they?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DcpANRFrI4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EseOhC8n7ro

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +explosion more...

I use these things for hobby use. Have seen lots go off for no real reason, and a fellow hobyists car destroyed. Threw one that started to swell up out of the sporthall door last year just in time.

Theres big differences between:
LiPo -- Short lived, high power, dangerous, high C rate, light, small.
LiFe -- Safe. 2000 cycles or 10 years plus if treated well, less energy dense, lowwer C rate.
LiIon -- In between performance, and can still burn on occasion, hence recalled phones and laptops, used in phones, laptops, cameras etc. These have 500 cycles. Or 1 to 3 years.

You will be lucky to see 100 cycles from a lipo. But 2000 from a LiFePO4.


At least the bags work ! :D
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Burgerman » 29 Sep 2015, 09:44

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/BM-MK3- ... rchair.htm

Read the link above carefully. It explains why, and some of what you will need to know.

I cant get off this chair if theres a problem. If this were hobby style lipo packs, I would be sitting on a bomb, no bag would help. and I need to know that it cant happen... :shock:

So I tested a Headway cell, to destruction. 2 actually. One charged to 40v all afternoon. One fully charged after a jump lead short circuit till almost dead... Then recharged. and punctured with a nail, Some small amount of smoke only. These are safe. I couldnt get it to burn no matter how extreme. Safer than lead actually.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 29 Sep 2015, 21:39

I'll need to check the dimensions on the 24 ah enclosure ,maybe I could still use enough headway cells to make it worthwhile or just do a larger case ?
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 01 Oct 2015, 16:51

I was thinking of using one of these35 mm ID tubes with a 34.8 0D tube reinforced inside it for an attempted modular frame , both tube walls are 1.4mm thick, any one think this would be enough for 180 lb guy going at max of 4-8 mph ?
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Burgerman » 01 Oct 2015, 16:57

All depends on the design and 101 variables. But I doubt it unless its all geodetic/triangulated design.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 02 Oct 2015, 09:17

Burgerman wrote:All depends on the design and 101 variables. But I doubt it unless its all geodetic/triangulated design.


Those knee walker frames are only 2 mm or 3 at most from what I recall , and the travelscoot surely cant be much more - its joints cant be that stable either if it folds.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Burgerman » 02 Oct 2015, 09:25

Obviously it all depends on design.

What is your design? This frame is Mark Walkers design from 1990s.

This frame and swinging are suspension, uses 2mm wall light 7020 alloy tube and does a safe and very rigid 180mph.

Image

The frame was built by my freind Mark. (From Martek Engineering, Grimsby, 1 mile from my house). That 1150EFE motor shown there in his workshop could well be mine incidentally...

Another build pic. Its not about the type of tube, but the frame design. Thats where the strength comes from.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 04 Oct 2015, 09:35

Nice - at least from my humble perspective.

I had an idea just to basically do a prototype based on the current designs KW's do with the two crossbars connecting to the front steering colum and rear axel but something else has cropped up meaning I NEED something now to use . In that vein at least I can now bypass headway case problem - though now I need to find a scooter capable of taking group 24 I can use for travel ( air ).and give me some range too.

Any suggestions ? :P
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 04 Oct 2015, 11:21

Well, I think there is no way Im going to find travel capable scooter with 75 ah batteries lol

The best I could do was the Pride Apex Sprint ( 35 ah ) or group U1 , even the top of the range Pride Apex Epic only does 55ah so how the hell is any one with scooter meant to convert to lithium ?
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby flagman1776 » 04 Oct 2015, 16:44

All Scooters (and power chairs) have advantages & disavantages.

There is the TravelScoot which I own & works satisfactorily. It does not have automatic brake system which may or may not be an issue for others. It is the lightest in total weight & weight each disassembled piece. It is only currently offered with a 10ah battery but you can carry more than one and both SLA & LI battery are interchangeable (mix & match) as they just plug in.

The Lexis light. I've seen one in use, the user was happy & was manageable for her. I just saw an ad offering it with 2 "Lithium" batteries included & a car charger. The Lexis battery pack locks into the tiller assembly so is probably not go9ing to be user modifiable.

Luggie with SLA battery.

There are likely more products. Use a search to finding "folding scooters".

What you really need to know is RANGE, not Ah. I've gotten 4+ hours of outdoor sightseeing out of ONE "10 Ah" battery pack & still had power to get back to my car.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 04 Oct 2015, 19:02

flagman1776 wrote:All Scooters (and power chairs) have advantages & disavantages.

There is the TravelScoot which I own & works satisfactorily. It does not have automatic brake system which may or may not be an issue for others. It is the lightest in total weight & weight each disassembled piece. It is only currently offered with a 10ah battery but you can carry more than one and both SLA & LI battery are interchangeable (mix & match) as they just plug in.
The Lexis light. I've seen one in use, the user was happy & was manageable for her. I just saw an ad offering it with 2 "Lithium" batteries included & a car charger. The Lexis battery pack locks into the tiller assembly so is probably not go9ing to be user modifiable.

Luggie with SLA battery.

There are likely more products. Use a search to finding "folding scooters".

What you really need to know is RANGE, not Ah. I've gotten 4+ hours of outdoor sightseeing out of ONE "10 Ah" battery pack & still had power to get back to my car.


Can an 8.5 amp compete with 35 ah ?

luggie says 11 miles and weighs 50lbs plus 2lbs battery TOTAL 52 lbs
pride says no range but weighs 120 lbs plus 43 lbs for batteries TOTAL 163 lbs hence the 35 ah

If I bought one of these on the cheap then it would leave me with some $$$ I could use to get another spare lipo - more than I'd want to pay but it seems a better solution if travelling - plus i like how the battery is below u so u can change it sitting. ( maybe with a struggle )
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby flagman1776 » 04 Oct 2015, 22:02

I think the TS is very effcient use of power because it is so light. I think the weight to power ratios may apply but are hard to really quatify.

I once rented a take-apart Pride scooter. It was fine indoors or in a paved parking lot. Unfortunately I was outdoors on grass & a nice improved gravel walk. I tipped it over in about the first 30 seconds, again 5 minutes later... I caught it 10 minutes further in. I wanted to throw it in the (Erie) Canal. Wife thought I would not get my deposit back...

The Luggie looks like the battery is under the seat & may have the most flexibility as far as a LiFePO4 conversion in the future. I don't know what other brands there are as I did not have time to expore every link that popped up in Google. Luggie's have been around for quite a few years & are well reguarded.

The TS battery really needs to go in the OEM space... & there is no bottom! Just a couple of end brackets where the packs sit. The OEM packs are stackable. Still this is restrictive.

The beauty of a lightweight folding scooter is that you actually HAVE IT WITH YOU. Often I'll use a store scooter rather than deploy Scoot. With all the pensioneers at the store stocking up, day after a storm, and weekend traffic, no scooter was available yesterday or today... I just deployed Scoot in 2 minutes & do my shopping.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby ex-Gooserider » 06 Oct 2015, 02:18

Note that there is a big compromise involved if you want to do a 'folding / portable' scooter - especially if using lead brick power....

Batteries are HEAVY - the only other part that has any real potential to compete is the motors.... A group 24 battery is on the order of 50-60lbs EACH - which is on the heavy side for something one is expected to handle a lot.... (Note that a lot of jobs that are explicitly involving package handling actually have rules against one of their physically fit, healthy, able-bodied package handlers attempting to lift more than 50lbs without assistance....)

So anyone doing a 'portable' scooter is going to go with smaller size, lighter batteries - and even the U-1 bricks are still around 30lbs each, so you see a search for much smaller packs like the 9-10AH packs on the little folders...

If I was trying to design a powered knee-walker, I'd probably start with an existing unit, and look at figuring out how to apply power to just one of the rear wheels - possibly both if it was easy, but one should be enough - the speeds are low, and the wheelbase is narrow enough that the off center drive wouldn't be a big deal...

I'd look for a brushless motor, probably something from the model vehicle industry that was intended for a large heavy vehicle like a rock-crawler or tank, and do a toothed belt drive (with a lot of reduction) to one wheel - not a lot different from what I did with the
electric skateboard I built recently (search on the thread) but with a motor and gearing more focused on low speed / high torque....

I would also choose a relatively small LiFePO4 based battery pack to drive it....

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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 08 Oct 2015, 16:37

I think I will need to put my plan on hold till I sort out a few more things .

With the Luggie at least I can take another battery onboard when travelling should sh*t happen .
They said the battery was not new for this luggie , but that it does not need replacing. ( whether that means its full capacity or 30 % I dont know ) maybe I'd better off buying new to be sure.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Burgerman » 08 Oct 2015, 16:48

Of course if you had a proper charger/discharger, you could measure its Ah capacity to 2 decimal places...
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 08 Oct 2015, 18:57

Burgerman wrote:Of course if you had a proper charger/discharger, you could measure its Ah capacity to 2 decimal places...

I could , but that would only be after I bought it :(
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Burgerman » 08 Oct 2015, 20:15

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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 08 Oct 2015, 20:44

He said the scooter has been serviced , so does that not usually include checking the battery too ?

If it does there must be some % on it capacity they can give me surely ...
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Burgerman » 08 Oct 2015, 22:26

, so does that not usually include checking the battery too ?


Most techs both don't have the equipment, or time, and wouldn't know how anyway.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Burgerman » 08 Oct 2015, 22:32

The Luggie comes with the latest battery technology as it uses a Lithium Polymer battery, that is the same technology being used in the latest electric cars.


I certainly hope not!
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby jonv » 08 Oct 2015, 22:47

Burgerman wrote:
, so does that not usually include checking the battery too ?


Most techs both don't have the equipment, or time, and wouldn't know how anyway.


Why the hell are they called techs then ? :P
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Burgerman » 08 Oct 2015, 23:30

So they can guess, and fit endless new motors and controllers until it works again from what I have seen.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby Mussels » 09 Oct 2015, 16:42

flagman1776 wrote:I think the TS is very effcient use of power because it is so light. I think the weight to power ratios may apply but are hard to really quatify.

I once rented a take-apart Pride scooter. It was fine indoors or in a paved parking lot. Unfortunately I was outdoors on grass & a nice improved gravel walk. I tipped it over in about the first 30 seconds, again 5 minutes later... I caught it 10 minutes further in. I wanted to throw it in the (Erie) Canal. Wife thought I would not get my deposit back...

The Luggie looks like the battery is under the seat & may have the most flexibility as far as a LiFePO4 conversion in the future. I don't know what other brands there are as I did not have time to expore every link that popped up in Google. Luggie's have been around for quite a few years & are well reguarded.

The TS battery really needs to go in the OEM space... & there is no bottom! Just a couple of end brackets where the packs sit. The OEM packs are stackable. Still this is restrictive.

The beauty of a lightweight folding scooter is that you actually HAVE IT WITH YOU. Often I'll use a store scooter rather than deploy Scoot. With all the pensioneers at the store stocking up, day after a storm, and weekend traffic, no scooter was available yesterday or today... I just deployed Scoot in 2 minutes & do my shopping.

My wife had the same problem with a travel scooter, it was OK for a shopping centre but anywhere rougher (like a pavement with dropped curbs) it would tip over frequently. Only a full size scooter was suitable in the end and so she can come on days out with the kids our family car is now a crew cab Transit.
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Re: Choosing the best scooter to adapt ?

Postby flagman1776 » 09 Oct 2015, 22:33

I find the genuine "Travelscoot" folding scooter (http://www.travelscoot.com/) to be adequately stable under most circumstances including on grass. The rear wheels are wider than the seat...
The Pride take apart (sorry, I don't recall the exact model of the rental) was narrow & like I said, tippy.
I've seen the luggie & lexis and the rear wheels are set far enough out for reasonable stablity.

Full size, non-folding scooters are fine but require a van, station wagon or a rear mount platform. That's all well & good but limits us to a single dedicated vehicle...
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