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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 06 Dec 2016, 16:37

Burgerman wrote:What you should do is post a list of questions in a new thread to ask what every setting does. Say 2 at a time on each tab.

So you can learn what/why for each setting or battery type. Without wasting lots of money buying things all winter! :P



Good idea - will do - thanks
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 06 Dec 2016, 16:51

How much does the pack you built weigh, expresso?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2016, 18:46

480g per cell, x7 x8 = 26kg or about 57lb plus a few featherweight plastic blocks and buss bars.
A single group 24 is about 50 to 54lb. So half. For about 250% range increase...

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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 06 Dec 2016, 18:52

Gnomatic wrote:How much does the pack you built weigh, expresso?


i never checked how much it weighs - the pack i use now - is 3 rows 12ah cells - then i sit in a plastic container - from container store - and sit that in a backpack - or messanger bag - - strap it on my chair - on the rear push handles

and use two bungee cords so it wont swing away feels fine - i would say 25 or 30 pounds is this pack - dont know for sure - the next pack i want to make is 45ah - same 3 rows but 15ah cells - pack same way - just have to find the right size items to sit in and backpack which fits and easy to get to

thats why a messagner bag has a flap only - lift it - get the charger cable plug in and charge - when done - put cable back in - flap down - bungee cords back on - you dont have to remove it off the chair ever if you dont want - and you can bring it to any other chair you have - so very convenient
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 06 Dec 2016, 19:00

I should have clarified, I was asking about the 105Ah pack in your 646.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2016, 19:10

480g per cell, x7 x8 = 26kg or about 57lb plus a few featherweight plastic blocks and buss bars.
A single group 24 is about 50 to 54lb. So half. For about 250% range increase...
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 06 Dec 2016, 19:16

Gnomatic wrote:I should have clarified, I was asking about the 105Ah pack in your 646.


oh sorry - i didnt realize that either - i take what BM says is correct - 55lbs - more or less - its like having ONE Group 24 battery in your chair instead of two -- big difference - feels fine - but have to be careful i guess down hills maybe
the rear has less traction -

but your chair may be different - since you sit right on it over the Mid Wheel - i think right - - in my case - my seating is not right over the rear wheel - its the best it can be - since i have a seat lift etc, - its as far back as it can go
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 06 Dec 2016, 20:43

Burgerman wrote:
480g per cell, x7 x8 = 26kg or about 57lb plus a few featherweight plastic blocks and buss bars.
A single group 24 is about 50 to 54lb. So half. For about 250% range increase...


Don't know how I missed that the first time, but I did. :roll:

So if lead is ~708lb/ft3 and the area of my battery case is almost exactly 1 sq ft(144 sq in), sticking a 1/2" lead plate under my pack would add about 30lb so the chair's center of gravity shouldn't be too badly affected.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 06 Dec 2016, 21:53

Yes.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby brianpile1 » 20 Jan 2017, 13:28

Hi BM

I finally bit the bullet and have taken delivery of a new Frontier V4 [rear wheel drive], which I was pleased to see was number two on your list!

I went for pneumatic tyres on the castors [they normally come with solid wheels apparently] and have had them filled with the Oko tyre sealant. I had it fitted with the same tyres on the rear that you use [the Kevlar reinforced ones]. interestingly this makes the chair even wider, as not only are these tyres slightly wider than the standard nobblies, but when they fitted them initially the tyres were hitting the frame, so they had to fit a spacer on the inside over the driveshaft before fitting the wheels. I sent them your settings and I think they did make SOME of the adjustments as the chair feels a lot more "lively" than their [All Terrain Wheelchairs] demonstrator was.

I will eventually do the lithium conversion, but I want to run down the standard MK gel batteries first. And I need to get the dimensions of the battery boxes so I can see how many lifePo4 cells I can squeeze in.

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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jan 2017, 15:32

Yes the tyres are 6.00 wide rather than 145mm so a little wider. But not by much.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Wheel-less » 08 Apr 2017, 13:39

I only have the very limited Sirocco. This is a size issue as I live in a basement flat, down 10 steps. The wheelchair lift that I have is the smallest and the platform comes down to the small area in front of my door so I can only have a wheelchair that is close to a manual wheelchair size. Anything much larger and I would not be able to open my door.

The range on the Sirocco is rubbish. I know the stated range on electric chairs is shockingly inaccurate. But some makes may be "less inaccurate" than others...In the case of my Sirocco, the range for new batteries tends to be around a FIFTH to a TENTH of the stated range of 25 miles; So the best range I've ever gotten was around 5 miles for NEW batteries, which decreases down to around a sixteenth of a mile (and losing one of my two green lights) when the batteries get old.

This is a problem because I live in London, and NOTHING is that close. Living in the King's Cross area, I can't even get to the West of London except by paying for a cab.

I'm wondering, therefore, if anyone can suggest a small chair with better (actual) range that might take, say, 75ah batteries? I will have to get one second hand as my pension would have to be saved until a few decades after my death in order to afford a new one! My old Sirocco is making noises that suggest it is not long for this world, and I haven't a clue about what sort might be more reliable and increase my range.

I am a luddite and technophobe, so do not waste your technical expertise on me. It truly would be like trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Oh, and Burgerman, I love/hate looking at your chairs and reading about their range and speed! Oh, Jealousy! But thank you for this forum!!!!!
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 08 Apr 2017, 19:47

Wheel-less wrote:I only have the very limited Sirocco. This is a size issue as I live in a basement flat, down 10 steps. The wheelchair lift that I have is the smallest and the platform comes down to the small area in front of my door so I can only have a wheelchair that is close to a manual wheelchair size. Anything much larger and I would not be able to open my door.


Have you measured the length/width of your elevator?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Dan » 09 Apr 2017, 01:59

Wheel-less, have you been assessed by an occupational therapist? Ask your GP. If you can't walk you may be entitled to a free power chair.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Dan » 09 Apr 2017, 02:03

BTW if your only getting 5 miles from a new batteries there has to be a problem somewhere?

Also if you have upper body strength the OT will try and put you into a manual chair.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Apr 2017, 09:18

Crap batteries, are same Ah but high resistance so you get half the range.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 11 Apr 2017, 03:02

This sounds like another potential case where one of the Chinese folding chairs might be a good fit - they might be hard to find second hand since they are fairly new on the market, but aren't as bad a price as many chairs new... No idea if they deliver on the claimed range, but at least they are using brushless motors (albeit with gears) which should help, and extra battery packs are available. They also are pretty small, so should be able to fit on the lift...

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Wheel-less wrote:I only have the very limited Sirocco. This is a size issue as I live in a basement flat, down 10 steps. The wheelchair lift that I have is the smallest and the platform comes down to the small area in front of my door so I can only have a wheelchair that is close to a manual wheelchair size. Anything much larger and I would not be able to open my door.

The range on the Sirocco is rubbish. I know the stated range on electric chairs is shockingly inaccurate. But some makes may be "less inaccurate" than others...In the case of my Sirocco, the range for new batteries tends to be around a FIFTH to a TENTH of the stated range of 25 miles; So the best range I've ever gotten was around 5 miles for NEW batteries, which decreases down to around a sixteenth of a mile (and losing one of my two green lights) when the batteries get old.

This is a problem because I live in London, and NOTHING is that close. Living in the King's Cross area, I can't even get to the West of London except by paying for a cab.

I'm wondering, therefore, if anyone can suggest a small chair with better (actual) range that might take, say, 75ah batteries? I will have to get one second hand as my pension would have to be saved until a few decades after my death in order to afford a new one! My old Sirocco is making noises that suggest it is not long for this world, and I haven't a clue about what sort might be more reliable and increase my range.

I am a luddite and technophobe, so do not waste your technical expertise on me. It truly would be like trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Oh, and Burgerman, I love/hate looking at your chairs and reading about their range and speed! Oh, Jealousy! But thank you for this forum!!!!!
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 11 Apr 2017, 09:35

But some makes may be "less inaccurate" than others...In the case of my Sirocco, the range for new batteries tends to be around a FIFTH to a TENTH of the stated range of 25 miles; So the best range I've ever gotten was around 5 miles for NEW batteries, which decreases down to around a sixteenth of a mile (and losing one of my two green lights) when the batteries get old.


Because range is tested to a specific standard. Basically power used driving around a tennis court sized flat surface at constant speed, plus a few other simple tests. Then the result is mathematically expanded to match a theoretical full range. So they dont lie, its just that the test is a joke for a huge number of reasons. And these reasons affect different chairs in vastly different ways. Plus they are using the best battery pre conditioned, new efficient chair, and very careful driving with no stick wiggling... The result is usually that you can expect about just over half what they claim, only IF you use the best batteries and they are almost new, outdoors only in long straight lines. Show it a hill or a couple of ramps, or a road edge, cheap battery, of one thats 4 months old, or go around the house for 30 mins first which eats power, and its all straight out the window...
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Andrey » 27 Apr 2017, 13:09

Should I consider Puma40 for 60% indoor/40% outdoor use and mods like lithium/brushless (Invacare)/tubeless ?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 27 Apr 2017, 13:28

Yes, other than brushless.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 02 Jun 2017, 22:33

The Rival - from Pride - Question - Other than Not being able to get a programmer for this chair - at least its not easy to get or program

Besides this - is there any other reason this chair is not a good option for someone who likes it ? -
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 03 Jun 2017, 00:05

Dunno never really looked at one. But the programmer issue is for me at least a total absolute show stopper.

I cannot use (to me undrivable, inaccurate, frustrating as hell) any chair I cannot get a OEM level or factory/service level programming tool for. Not to mention control over inhibit behavior, and things like motor load compensation, or even simple stuff like battery meter behaviour so a lithium battery can be monitored. This is to me key. What good is a chair that drives like a drunk?

As for the rest, most chairs are much the same. Using common parts, chargers, wheels, tyres,. motors, even controllers. So C of G, and programming are key. IF those things dont bother you, then try it.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 03 Jun 2017, 00:26

the chair is not for me - Quickie is considering it - it dosnt seem like a bad chair in terms of total looks etc, - from the website - its decent base size - not too wide -

i really cant say since i never rode one either - the R4000 was the one i tried out many years ago and didnt like that one - this Rival seems improved to me since then - and she will get the High speed motor package - 24 batteries and i am sure the 100A controller -

She can have the chair fine tuned to her driving style - i understand how you wont like it and she may not like it either till its fine tuned to her driving habits and once its done - she wont have to keep touching it etc, -

she hasnt decided yet - waiting for me to give her some feedback on it - So other than the programming issues - it should be a decent chair - ?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 03 Jun 2017, 06:06

She can have the chair fine tuned to her driving style - i understand how you wont like it and she may not like it either till its fine tuned to her driving habits and once its done - she wont have to keep touching it etc, -



But that's the problem. You cant!
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 03 Jun 2017, 16:14

BM you say you cant - but you have to understand not everyone needs everything set to 100 - not everyone wants to wheelie or turn on a dime for many reasons - i am sure it will be adjusted enough to make it work for her - Up till now shes been using the GB motors invacare - since no more - not many choices of chairs to choose from - i understand and i also feel as if i cant have control of the chair programming even if minor stuff - i wont like it either

not looking to call the tech ever few weeks when i want something adjusted - believe it not - for some users - Delays are needed - shes a very good driver - she actually can ride her chair with no hands :D picture that - she can use her elbow to and hands free - for a period of time - not riding around all day that way -

its going to be different any chair she picks now - shes been so used to the invacare with GB motors - she has a week to decide - i just want to give her info on it - so other than the programming - looks Ok - for me - i dont like there foot rests - so i will mention that - she should get them tapered in at least - and not sure of the seat frame etc, - will mention to have them put her seat more to the rear - and not have a big battery box sticking behind you -

i noticed that on those pride RWD chairs - they have a long seating frame - but the seat is forward too much in comparison -
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 03 Jun 2017, 17:24

The seat thing is due to anti tip tests to pass regulations to stop it going over backwards in certain situations. It results in every single rear drive chair on the market being a pig of a thing to drive/turn, use. And eat batteries. So whatever4 rear drive chair she gets will be the same and will either stay like that, or require some user action to correct.

The programming thing can be overcome on any chair that is not pride one way or another...
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 06 Jun 2017, 05:21

Burgerman wrote:The seat thing is due to anti tip tests to pass regulations to stop it going over backwards in certain situations. It results in every single rear drive chair on the market being a pig of a thing to drive/turn, use. And eat batteries. So whatever4 rear drive chair she gets will be the same and will either stay like that, or require some user action to correct.

The programming thing can be overcome on any chair that is not pride one way or another...


Far as I'm concerned, the programming thing can be overcome on Pride as well, though it's expensive, voids warranty (isn't that what warranties are for? :twisted: ) and requires some level of modification ability....
1. Set up account on E-bay
2. Purchase Power module, joystick pod and Redel cable for Pilot+, optionally actuator module if needed - or other equivalent that can be programmed... Try to also get a set of the Power module plugs...
3. Get software and make or purchase programming cable...
4. Replace Pride junk w/ Pilot+ electronics
5. Program as needed....
6. Put Pride junk up on E-bay to palm off on some other sucker....

(I did something similar on my Invacare project chair to replace the MK IV electronics....)

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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby SWalkusz » 09 Sep 2017, 04:39

OK, there is now only one chair ticking all the boxes - Narrow wheelbase (62cm), 70Ah Battery option, 450W 4pole motors, rehab seating options, relatively affordable = Karma Leon
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby SWalkusz » 09 Sep 2017, 05:05

even a centre mounted footboard option, lol - Not sure about the controller, though? I reckon the voucher should be worth £2k + a nominal amount for self maintenance with any luck + seating option maybe over and above, fingers crossed. We could be looking at acquiring it all for only a £1k contribution, perfect. Cheers :)
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby SWalkusz » 09 Sep 2017, 14:26

SWalkusz wrote:even a centre mounted footboard option, lol - Not sure about the controller, though? I reckon the voucher should be worth £2k + a nominal amount for self maintenance with any luck + seating option maybe over and above, fingers crossed. We could be looking at acquiring it all for only a £1k contribution, perfect. Cheers :)
It also only has Curtiss Wright VRII controllers rated upto 90A.
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