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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 20 Jan 2017, 15:32

Yes the tyres are 6.00 wide rather than 145mm so a little wider. But not by much.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Wheel-less » 08 Apr 2017, 13:39

I only have the very limited Sirocco. This is a size issue as I live in a basement flat, down 10 steps. The wheelchair lift that I have is the smallest and the platform comes down to the small area in front of my door so I can only have a wheelchair that is close to a manual wheelchair size. Anything much larger and I would not be able to open my door.

The range on the Sirocco is rubbish. I know the stated range on electric chairs is shockingly inaccurate. But some makes may be "less inaccurate" than others...In the case of my Sirocco, the range for new batteries tends to be around a FIFTH to a TENTH of the stated range of 25 miles; So the best range I've ever gotten was around 5 miles for NEW batteries, which decreases down to around a sixteenth of a mile (and losing one of my two green lights) when the batteries get old.

This is a problem because I live in London, and NOTHING is that close. Living in the King's Cross area, I can't even get to the West of London except by paying for a cab.

I'm wondering, therefore, if anyone can suggest a small chair with better (actual) range that might take, say, 75ah batteries? I will have to get one second hand as my pension would have to be saved until a few decades after my death in order to afford a new one! My old Sirocco is making noises that suggest it is not long for this world, and I haven't a clue about what sort might be more reliable and increase my range.

I am a luddite and technophobe, so do not waste your technical expertise on me. It truly would be like trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Oh, and Burgerman, I love/hate looking at your chairs and reading about their range and speed! Oh, Jealousy! But thank you for this forum!!!!!
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Gnomatic » 08 Apr 2017, 19:47

Wheel-less wrote:I only have the very limited Sirocco. This is a size issue as I live in a basement flat, down 10 steps. The wheelchair lift that I have is the smallest and the platform comes down to the small area in front of my door so I can only have a wheelchair that is close to a manual wheelchair size. Anything much larger and I would not be able to open my door.


Have you measured the length/width of your elevator?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Dan » 09 Apr 2017, 01:59

Wheel-less, have you been assessed by an occupational therapist? Ask your GP. If you can't walk you may be entitled to a free power chair.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Dan » 09 Apr 2017, 02:03

BTW if your only getting 5 miles from a new batteries there has to be a problem somewhere?

Also if you have upper body strength the OT will try and put you into a manual chair.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 09 Apr 2017, 09:18

Crap batteries, are same Ah but high resistance so you get half the range.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 11 Apr 2017, 03:02

This sounds like another potential case where one of the Chinese folding chairs might be a good fit - they might be hard to find second hand since they are fairly new on the market, but aren't as bad a price as many chairs new... No idea if they deliver on the claimed range, but at least they are using brushless motors (albeit with gears) which should help, and extra battery packs are available. They also are pretty small, so should be able to fit on the lift...

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Wheel-less wrote:I only have the very limited Sirocco. This is a size issue as I live in a basement flat, down 10 steps. The wheelchair lift that I have is the smallest and the platform comes down to the small area in front of my door so I can only have a wheelchair that is close to a manual wheelchair size. Anything much larger and I would not be able to open my door.

The range on the Sirocco is rubbish. I know the stated range on electric chairs is shockingly inaccurate. But some makes may be "less inaccurate" than others...In the case of my Sirocco, the range for new batteries tends to be around a FIFTH to a TENTH of the stated range of 25 miles; So the best range I've ever gotten was around 5 miles for NEW batteries, which decreases down to around a sixteenth of a mile (and losing one of my two green lights) when the batteries get old.

This is a problem because I live in London, and NOTHING is that close. Living in the King's Cross area, I can't even get to the West of London except by paying for a cab.

I'm wondering, therefore, if anyone can suggest a small chair with better (actual) range that might take, say, 75ah batteries? I will have to get one second hand as my pension would have to be saved until a few decades after my death in order to afford a new one! My old Sirocco is making noises that suggest it is not long for this world, and I haven't a clue about what sort might be more reliable and increase my range.

I am a luddite and technophobe, so do not waste your technical expertise on me. It truly would be like trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Oh, and Burgerman, I love/hate looking at your chairs and reading about their range and speed! Oh, Jealousy! But thank you for this forum!!!!!
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 11 Apr 2017, 09:35

But some makes may be "less inaccurate" than others...In the case of my Sirocco, the range for new batteries tends to be around a FIFTH to a TENTH of the stated range of 25 miles; So the best range I've ever gotten was around 5 miles for NEW batteries, which decreases down to around a sixteenth of a mile (and losing one of my two green lights) when the batteries get old.


Because range is tested to a specific standard. Basically power used driving around a tennis court sized flat surface at constant speed, plus a few other simple tests. Then the result is mathematically expanded to match a theoretical full range. So they dont lie, its just that the test is a joke for a huge number of reasons. And these reasons affect different chairs in vastly different ways. Plus they are using the best battery pre conditioned, new efficient chair, and very careful driving with no stick wiggling... The result is usually that you can expect about just over half what they claim, only IF you use the best batteries and they are almost new, outdoors only in long straight lines. Show it a hill or a couple of ramps, or a road edge, cheap battery, of one thats 4 months old, or go around the house for 30 mins first which eats power, and its all straight out the window...
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Andrey » 27 Apr 2017, 13:09

Should I consider Puma40 for 60% indoor/40% outdoor use and mods like lithium/brushless (Invacare)/tubeless ?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 27 Apr 2017, 13:28

Yes, other than brushless.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 02 Jun 2017, 22:33

The Rival - from Pride - Question - Other than Not being able to get a programmer for this chair - at least its not easy to get or program

Besides this - is there any other reason this chair is not a good option for someone who likes it ? -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 03 Jun 2017, 00:05

Dunno never really looked at one. But the programmer issue is for me at least a total absolute show stopper.

I cannot use (to me undrivable, inaccurate, frustrating as hell) any chair I cannot get a OEM level or factory/service level programming tool for. Not to mention control over inhibit behavior, and things like motor load compensation, or even simple stuff like battery meter behaviour so a lithium battery can be monitored. This is to me key. What good is a chair that drives like a drunk?

As for the rest, most chairs are much the same. Using common parts, chargers, wheels, tyres,. motors, even controllers. So C of G, and programming are key. IF those things dont bother you, then try it.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 03 Jun 2017, 00:26

the chair is not for me - Quickie is considering it - it dosnt seem like a bad chair in terms of total looks etc, - from the website - its decent base size - not too wide -

i really cant say since i never rode one either - the R4000 was the one i tried out many years ago and didnt like that one - this Rival seems improved to me since then - and she will get the High speed motor package - 24 batteries and i am sure the 100A controller -

She can have the chair fine tuned to her driving style - i understand how you wont like it and she may not like it either till its fine tuned to her driving habits and once its done - she wont have to keep touching it etc, -

she hasnt decided yet - waiting for me to give her some feedback on it - So other than the programming issues - it should be a decent chair - ?
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 03 Jun 2017, 06:06

She can have the chair fine tuned to her driving style - i understand how you wont like it and she may not like it either till its fine tuned to her driving habits and once its done - she wont have to keep touching it etc, -



But that's the problem. You cant!
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby expresso » 03 Jun 2017, 16:14

BM you say you cant - but you have to understand not everyone needs everything set to 100 - not everyone wants to wheelie or turn on a dime for many reasons - i am sure it will be adjusted enough to make it work for her - Up till now shes been using the GB motors invacare - since no more - not many choices of chairs to choose from - i understand and i also feel as if i cant have control of the chair programming even if minor stuff - i wont like it either

not looking to call the tech ever few weeks when i want something adjusted - believe it not - for some users - Delays are needed - shes a very good driver - she actually can ride her chair with no hands :D picture that - she can use her elbow to and hands free - for a period of time - not riding around all day that way -

its going to be different any chair she picks now - shes been so used to the invacare with GB motors - she has a week to decide - i just want to give her info on it - so other than the programming - looks Ok - for me - i dont like there foot rests - so i will mention that - she should get them tapered in at least - and not sure of the seat frame etc, - will mention to have them put her seat more to the rear - and not have a big battery box sticking behind you -

i noticed that on those pride RWD chairs - they have a long seating frame - but the seat is forward too much in comparison -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 03 Jun 2017, 17:24

The seat thing is due to anti tip tests to pass regulations to stop it going over backwards in certain situations. It results in every single rear drive chair on the market being a pig of a thing to drive/turn, use. And eat batteries. So whatever4 rear drive chair she gets will be the same and will either stay like that, or require some user action to correct.

The programming thing can be overcome on any chair that is not pride one way or another...
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 06 Jun 2017, 05:21

Burgerman wrote:The seat thing is due to anti tip tests to pass regulations to stop it going over backwards in certain situations. It results in every single rear drive chair on the market being a pig of a thing to drive/turn, use. And eat batteries. So whatever4 rear drive chair she gets will be the same and will either stay like that, or require some user action to correct.

The programming thing can be overcome on any chair that is not pride one way or another...


Far as I'm concerned, the programming thing can be overcome on Pride as well, though it's expensive, voids warranty (isn't that what warranties are for? :twisted: ) and requires some level of modification ability....
1. Set up account on E-bay
2. Purchase Power module, joystick pod and Redel cable for Pilot+, optionally actuator module if needed - or other equivalent that can be programmed... Try to also get a set of the Power module plugs...
3. Get software and make or purchase programming cable...
4. Replace Pride junk w/ Pilot+ electronics
5. Program as needed....
6. Put Pride junk up on E-bay to palm off on some other sucker....

(I did something similar on my Invacare project chair to replace the MK IV electronics....)

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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby SWalkusz » 09 Sep 2017, 04:39

OK, there is now only one chair ticking all the boxes - Narrow wheelbase (62cm), 70Ah Battery option, 450W 4pole motors, rehab seating options, relatively affordable = Karma Leon
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby SWalkusz » 09 Sep 2017, 05:05

even a centre mounted footboard option, lol - Not sure about the controller, though? I reckon the voucher should be worth £2k + a nominal amount for self maintenance with any luck + seating option maybe over and above, fingers crossed. We could be looking at acquiring it all for only a £1k contribution, perfect. Cheers :)
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby SWalkusz » 09 Sep 2017, 14:26

SWalkusz wrote:even a centre mounted footboard option, lol - Not sure about the controller, though? I reckon the voucher should be worth £2k + a nominal amount for self maintenance with any luck + seating option maybe over and above, fingers crossed. We could be looking at acquiring it all for only a £1k contribution, perfect. Cheers :)
It also only has Curtiss Wright VRII controllers rated upto 90A.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby SWalkusz » 12 Sep 2017, 03:01

SWalkusz wrote:
SWalkusz wrote:even a centre mounted footboard option, lol - Not sure about the controller, though? I reckon the voucher should be worth £2k + a nominal amount for self maintenance with any luck + seating option maybe over and above, fingers crossed. We could be looking at acquiring it all for only a £1k contribution, perfect. Cheers :)
It also only has Curtiss Wright VRII controllers rated upto 90A.

http://karma-europe.com/product/leon/
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby SWalkusz » 15 Sep 2017, 03:51

The Karma Leon base chair is 10Km/h, however a battery upgrade from 50-70Ah will also increase its speed. Can you please explain what changes are made to effect torque? Or would limiting the speed to 6mph maximise torque in a 8mph capable chair?
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 15 Sep 2017, 09:12

Battery change is maybe REQUIRED to order increased speed option possibly. It doesent affect speed the chair goes. That is determined by the voltage. Which is exctly the same.

What changes is gear ratio. A chair that is 4mph has double the torque of one that is 8mph if this is the only change. The faster chair also uses double the battery power at every manoever and every speed even indoors as you shuffle about. Which is why they may require you to order a bigger battery. The smaller battery may have too much voltage drop under load (IR too high) and cause control problems.

The only time this isnt true, is where the manufacturer has just used the faster chair, and sold it as a slower chair by slowing down speed in programming. Thats a rediculous way to do things, as it wastes a ton of power and reduces range, torque, and has no speed benefit.

With the bigger chair manufacturers the 4mph chairs use a weaker 2 pole motor with the lower speed chairs as well as the lower speed gearing. Meaning they get "enough torque" with a cheaper motor, and a weaker lower amp conntroller, and smaller batery. 6mph chairs can be 2 or 4 pole motors and use 80 to 100A controllers. 8mph chairs need bigger batteries, 120A controllers, and 4 pole motors and will always have around 20% less starting torque, and around 20% less range than a 6mph one. And are best suited to lighter users.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby SWalkusz » 15 Sep 2017, 11:49

I think then our best way forward then is to take the voucher which may include an allowance for maintenance and put it towards the Karma Leon (Captain Seat) with centre footboard and battery upgrade for under a £1k contribution. There doesn't seem to be anything else to consider!!! :)
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby Burgerman » 15 Sep 2017, 12:44

Not if a captains seat is OK. Most users require a cushion like the gel one I use, to prevent pressure sores at least. Some need for clinical reasons (or just want for comfort or reach) such things as seat elevator. Or tilt. Recline. Center footplate with power lift etc.

Riser is something I don't need or want most of the time. Just adds weight, seat height, etc for no reason. But I always had an old chair WITH a riser in the garage for the odd times it was useful. Like van cleaning, or reaching stuff stored away.

And lately I keep getting sores on backside, so tilt, recline, allows weight to be transferred off my sensitive backside to my back. Hence the chair I sent back recently and a Jive R2 in my future. And while theres an 8mph option, I think I may go for 6, as I understand the battery/range/depth of discharge/torque issues and trade offs.
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Re: The 'Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration' List!

Postby SWalkusz » 16 Sep 2017, 05:15

She has a borrowed wheelchair with cheap castled foam cushion and never complains of pressure sores. However she does get pain in hip so reclining would be important which is a standard feature on Captain Seat. The only other consideration is pain in her knees so elevating leg rests may be necessary instead of the Centre footboard.
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Re: PINNED - Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration List!

Postby Burgerman » 19 Dec 2017, 21:53

Interesting new folding chair:

https://www.doability.co.uk/airwheel-h3 ... wheelchair may be worth a look.
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Re: PINNED - Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration List!

Postby ex-Gooserider » 27 Dec 2017, 05:20

I agree - looks reasonable for what it is... I suspect brushless motors with a gear drive, as that seems to be what I see on a lot of similar looking chairs...

I was sort of amused by the 'safety feature' of the joystick that stops the chair when you let go of it - don't they ALL do that??? :clap

Also what are they talking about with
The Airwheel H3’s omni-directional wheel design enables it to steer at 360°.
:? looks like a pretty standard RWD / front pivoting caster setup to me - so whats special? :eh:

Only thing I'm wondering about is that fold / unfold switch - seems like a bit of a sketchy setup - from the video, it's a center off toggle switch - what happens when you set it to unfold or fold, and don't return it to the off position? More significantly, the switch seemed a bit exposed - what happens if you bump it to 'fold' while sat in it?

I could see debating how really useful the auto-folding feature is - from what I've read the manual folders of that general style aren't all that hard to deploy, and I wonder how much extra weight (which would reduce portability....) the power fold adds. (Given that it probably wouldn't be used that often during a charge cycle, I don't think it would make a lot of difference for battery life....)

That said, if I was in the market for a portable chair, it seems like a reasonable one to consider.

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Re: PINNED - Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration List!

Postby Andrey » 13 Nov 2018, 21:19

Meyra made new chair (no info on website yet or I didn't found), I wonder is it even lithium?
But anyway, by it's configuration seems that they have read this website :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEFPBa47mDI

Burgerman, what do you think?
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Re: PINNED - Powerchairs Worthy of Consideration List!

Postby Burgerman » 13 Nov 2018, 21:56

Stock width, stock base with fat tyres added onto it. So its too wide, and seat too far forwards as usual. They didn't make the base narrower, turn batteries end to end, so the fat tyres sit inboard. But yes they appear to have been watching here. But that wont go through a doorway.
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