Battery and charger questions for used permobil

[North Coach]

Hi I am new to forum and new to power chairs as a manual chair user for 30 plus years. Anyway i purchased a 10 year old permobil c300. With 2 "new" but cheap 50 amp batteries. I plan on replacing right away as goal will be long distance range. They were almost dead acording to battery meter on chair after 1 hour of use I plan to buy to MK batteries but want to get biggest ones that will fit Book says Max battery size 10, 2x6,6x7 so biggest mk group 34 gel would be 60 amp M34SLD G I would like to go bigger but don't want to modify box on this chair as only plan to use a year or so ... As I have already figured out that the chair which is front wheel drive) tends to walk or drift especially at higher speeds ) so I will eventually replace with a newer chair off ebay etc when I have the funds 2 questions
1 Can i expect a 10 mile range on hard surface with these new group 34 gel mk batteries ?

2 I have 2 battery chargers which one will do a better job. ?
The charger that came with permobil when i bought it used is a black more portable type size of an auto tape deck charger 24V 8amp Model# 4c24080a says it work for both gel type and lead acid but no switch to designate the type you are charging
I also have a Invacare 24V 8 amp charger bigger in size like a small shoe box which came with an old strorm series 3 that i have It has switch to toggle between lead acid and gel type Plug is same can i use this charger on permobil (plug is same) Charger that came with it is more of portable

[Burgerman]

1 Can i expect a 10 mile range on hard surface with these new group 34 gel mk batteries ?

Too many variables to know. But I woud say that provided you have a level surface, no hills, few road egde cambers, and motors are still efficient, and that you are average weight, tyres properly inflated and in summer, then that woud be about its max expected range in rea world use. After about 5 or 6 months this will begin to decrease. You cant really guess though. Moving around in the house getting ready before you leave can use up 20% of your battery before you start... As can a small hill. Going at speed in straight lines uses the least power. Turning uses the most.

As for the chargers its unlekely that eithar does what you need. You need a volt meter to find out. Most supposed "gel" settings are actually AGM settings. And give 14.4v per battery, instead of the correct 14.1Vgels need for good service life. (28.2V max just before the ready light comes on).

AFTER the green ready light, those batteries SHOUD still be charging at a lower 27V. It takes about 20 hours to fully charge a completely discharged gel battery. And about 16 hours to fully charge a partially discharged one. This must happen at least once every few cycles of your batteries wont last. So you also need to measure votage after the ready light. Which should be held to 27V.

Lead batteries are frankly crap... So you need the best, and must treat them well.

[North Coach]

Thanks for the info Great site . I wish I had found it before buying my 10 year old c300 permobil. I think i have a short somewhere as battery will drain to 1 light after 1 hour use on a full charge also will drain to 1 light after 4 or 5 days without any use after a full charge. Now they are lead acid batteries and when I unscrewed post which is a small bolt there was sparking and the chair beeped when I hand turned it back in so I did not touch a metal wrench to get spark . this is with power switch off. i suspect a draw on system due to a bad wire. Do you think i am correct and if so i guess it would be a waste to buy the new MK group 34 batteries That I was going to install as they will just be ruined by the short in system. i have no idea how to find this so do i have a piece of junk?

[Irving]

Thanks for the info Great site . I wish I had found it before buying my 10 year old c300 permobil. I think i have a short somewhere as battery will drain to 1 light after 1 hour use on a full charge also will drain to 1 light after 4 or 5 days without any use after a full charge. Now they are lead acid batteries and when I unscrewed post which is a small bolt there was sparking and the chair beeped when I hand turned it back in so I did not touch a metal wrench to get spark . this is with power switch off. i suspect a draw on system due to a bad wire. Do you think i am correct and if so i guess it would be a waste to buy the new MK group 34 batteries That I was going to install as they will just be ruined by the short in system. i have no idea how to find this so do i have a piece of junk?

If it was a real short it would be smoking by now It could he that the sparking is due something is not powering off when the controller is switched off. Hard to know what though without seeing it. Are the brakes clicking off when you move and on when you stop - both sides? The discharge rate when 'in use' (and possibly when not) is likely to be simply down to knackered batteries, 'new' is relative (could have been new but left discharged for a few months) and cheap ones could be knackered in a few weeks if not looked after, no 'short' needed.

[LROBBINS]

You can't go by a spark to tell whether there's a short - the controller, even when turned off, will have a small drain and even that might give a visible spark. In addition, it also has some fairly large capacitors that will draw substantial current when first connected and that will almost certainly make a spark. To tell whether there's a short you have to put an ammeter in series with a battery wire and actually measure the current. Set the meter to a high scale so it isn't fried by that initial charging current, then turn it down to where you can read the steady draw. Anything over say 200 mA (probably less) would say that there is indeed a short. I really doubt that there's a short though - tired old batteries just don't hold a charge.

Ooops, I just saw that Burgerman replied while I was writing.

Ciao,
Lenny

BTW - there are connectors in those battery wires. You should definitely unplug them BEFORE disconnecting the battery terminals.

[Irving]

...
Ooops, I just saw that Burgerman replied while I was writing.
...

Lenny, either you're still a bit off-colour or you need new glasses

[Burgerman]

Ooops, I just saw that Burgerman replied while I was writing.

? Nope!

But from the sounds of it the batteries are toast.

[North Coach]

I bought the chair a month ago the batteries were new in February so 3 months old. When i charge it all the lights come on but if it sits idle 3 days there will be 1 light on or like I said 1 hour use 1 light I just don't know if I should buy new batteries until i figure if there is a short. i realize that to know for sure you have to to the ammeter thing which again I would have to pay for prob a few hundred and they would just tell me to get new batteries now i've go 700 more put into a chair that could have a short i guess the lesson is if you are not an ace mechanic do not buy a fancy chair used which means no chair for me

[Burgerman]

Cheap chinese batteries start off junk. They get worse fast if they were not at the same state of charge when they were fitted as one gets onvercharged and one undercharged.

Even good quality batteries (MK Gel, Odyssey AGM are about the only 2 worth buying) are borderline. Treated correctly and used hard you might get 9 months to a year. Treated badly and installed when they were not at the same state of charge, or charged with a typical junk mobility charger you may get half that.

1. Do you know if the charger is CORRECTLY charging the batteries? Get a digital volt meter from somewhere, and measure the voltage of each battery individually BEFORE charging. They should be above 12V and they should be identical to .05 decimal place.

2. Charge them and watch the battery voltages with the meter. Both should read the same, and they should climb to over 14V and should STAY at 14V or higher for several hours. If it does this, the charger is good.

3. AFTER charge, what is each battery voltage? It will fall to 12.9V to 13.2V EACH and the same each. Over about a day.

4. It should still be over 12.8V after a week, on BOTH batteries.

5. Watch the voltage of each battery as you MOVE the chair with its controller. It should stay above 11V each battery, and spring back to 12. something the moment you stop.

TEST and let us know.
Test and see.

If the voltage is falling fast, try disconnecting them and THEN watch. It could be internally faulty. (high self discharge). And nothing to do with the chair. Its UNLIKELY to be the chair.

[LROBBINS]

Sorry Irving, and you're right I'm still feeling quite rotten. Ciao, Lenny

[LROBBINS]

You can get a decent (though obviously not lab quality) multimeter for < $20-25, not hundreds. For almost all that you are likely to want to do, these are quite adequate, and it's definitely something to have if you are going to be working at all with things electric. Just assume that it's not terribly accurate, though my 12 Euro model is surprisingly close on most scales. The instructions will be in Chinglish though, so you might want to search the web for something like "How to use a multimeter". Ciao, Lenny

[North Coach]

I appreciate you guys trying to help and i know I am a rookie to all of this at not at your level I have some basic questions
1 You talk about charging batteries individually but that would have to be done with a separate charger as the 3 pron charger goes into armrest and chargers batteries together while thy are installed in chair.
2 how can you check both at once unless you have 2 voltmeters.
3 I don't know what hooking up an ammeter in series means.
I am sure i am trying your patience with m,y ignorance but other old chairs i had were more like charge and use not all this tech stuff. I am only trying to learn it as it will cost to much at DME and they will just have me buy new batteries parts etc until i am b roke.

I bought this from a guy who supposedly fixes and resells used chairs he does not know how to use a voltmeter either but did admit he buys cheap batteries. I am going to buy a voltmeter and see if i can figure out how to use it or at least tell someone how to use it as i can not reach that far down to access batteries myself My shoulders are shot or i would just keep pushing my manual chair where you only have to worry about the occasional flat.

[Burgerman]

1. Correct. Or just link them together for 24 hours so the charge level equalises between the two.
2. You move the meter probes to each battery to measure.
3. You dont need to, if you follow what I said instead.

At least not yet.

These problem inevitably turn out to be battery problems. If your chaur REALLY discharged a battery in 3 days something would get hot...

[North Coach]

okay i am going to give it a shot . I will let you know what i find out

[North Coach]

Do i need a battery load tester like a schumacher brand $45 or a voltmeter $10 t0 20 on amazon but they seem to be for checking outlets in house. is there a digital voltmeter made specifically for checking batteries also the have so many settings not sure i could figure out how to use one. Any suggesatons on a digital voltmeter for batteries that is user friendly and comes with some instruction?

[Burgerman]

Any digital multimeter that is over 10 or 15 dollars will be fine. They all come with instructions. On how to use a digital multimeter. But not on how electrics, batteries, electronics etc work. Thats a different thing entirely.

You dont need a load tester. In any case with no knowledge or experience what will it tell you??

[wcibrian]

I have had a C300 for 5 years now. I got it new and have put 1400 miles on it. It has been a very reliable chair! I even did a few long distance road trips in it. One taking 5 days and spanning 170 miles. Feel free to look me up on YouTube (Brian Epp) as I have news clip videos of the trek. I would say that on average with good batteries you should never get less then 10 miles before a recharge. I have gotten a max of 18 miles a time or 2 before dead. I plan to build the BM3 when I get the money. I am a firm believer in lithium power.

[North Coach]

could anyone post a link to permobil 300 service manual batteries are now so dead they won't charge at all need to figure out how to access batteries to get them out but can't lift seat to get at front battery

[Burgerman]

I have had a C300 for 5 years now. I got it new and have put 1400 miles on it. It has been a very reliable chair! I even did a few long distance road trips in it. One taking 5 days and spanning 170 miles. Feel free to look me up on YouTube (Brian Epp) as I have news clip videos of the trek. I would say that on average with good batteries you should never get less then 10 miles before a recharge. I have gotten a max of 18 miles a time or 2 before dead. I plan to build the BM3 when I get the money. I am a firm believer in lithium power.

Because its 7 or 8kph? Thats 5mph. So low geared. That means less power used per mile. And of course depends on user weight too.

[Burgerman]

could anyone post a link to permobil 300 service manual batteries are now so dead they won't charge at all need to figure out how to access batteries to get them out but can't lift seat to get at front battery

Can you connect 24V and a limited current (5A fuse?) to the charge point? Then the seat will work.

[rlnguy]

Manuals are here:
http://www.permobilus.com/manuals.php
If the chair has a powered seat lift, it would have included a long hex key, to raise the seat. Of course, being a used chair, I'm sure you didn't get that.
If not a power lift, it has a gas spring to assist raising, after the clamp is loosened.
I've got an extra hex key, I can send you-PM with for details, if you like.

[Rollin Positive]

Just a question any reason you got such a old chair used?

A 10 year old chair just has things wearing out just simply due to age. But more important technology has greatly improved so the rides on new chairs is so much better, softer and more manageable.

Newer Permobil chairs also support the 34 battery's but also the larger 24s.

My experience when they batterys are charged each night is around 13 miles on 34s and 17 plus miles on 24s.

I weight 120lb and in Arizona its flat no hills and ground smooth.

Everyone's a little different.

Stick with the Permobil charger it goes in to a diagonostic test each time its plugged in to show you its working properly.

A little price but once in a while you will see one under $100

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Permobil-Power-Wheelchair-Battery-Charger-24V-8-Amp-Model-24V8A-8320-/272382613123?hash=item3f6b44d683:g:QuIAAOSw-itXveFu


Used chairs in the states on eBay and craigslist sell for pennies on the dollar.
If you need some help let me know.

On your current chair here is the manual

http://www.permobilus.com/manuals2/24.pdf

[Burgerman]

Just one thing though. It says on that charger that it charges gel and AGM. Undoubtedly it can. There are thousands of such chargers that claim the same. One charger however, cannot charge gel and AGM correctly unless it has some way of selecting the correct battery type. Does it have this?

If not you will lose some of the battery service life if you use it with MK Gel or other gel batteries.

This is one of the few we ever found that can do this properly, at a sensible price. https://www.amazon.co.uk/24V-2-8A-Smart ... B007ER45JE
And its available in the US at your AC voltages too I think, but hard to find. Though you would need to fit your own XLR connector.

[ex-Gooserider]

No comment on the charger itself, but I have done business with the vendor, Liberty Mobility, and they seem like good folks... Definitely worth giving a call if looking for used parts on a US chair, as they have a lot of things they don't list on Fleabay...

ex-Gooserider

[Vipervan68]

I hope I've written this under the correct category. Anyway, I have a Permobil C350 and it came with the 24V8A Model Charger. I have attached a picture of it and sure wish someone could help me decide what sized power inverter I need to install in my 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan so I can charge as I drive. I have read your inverter tips on you website and seem to only get more confused. Please help!?!

[Burgerman]

Well you would need something like a 300 watt pure sine wave inverter. But that would need to be connected directly to the battery. Its also not a great way to try to charge a chair in a vehicle.

Because the charger itself only charges at 8Amps. So if you drove for 1 hour it can only return under 8Ah.


Also because you are converting the power twice its not very efficient.

You can charge the chair as you drive at much higher Amps, if you can follow this: http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/faster- ... arging.htm Sorry about the decades old page!
And no inverter or charger needed.

[ex-Gooserider]

My 2012 Dodge GC, and the 2010 Chrysler T&C that it replaced both had low power AC inverters built in (2-prong plug in passenger side rear pillar, w/ switch on lower front center console) I don't know if it would be enough for a mobility brick charger, it is enough to keep a laptop going...

However I'd totally agree with BM, the hookup to charge directly off the alternator is the only way to go if you want to actually get a useful charge....

The only thing I do differently is use PP-75 Power-Poles on the chair end rather than the SB-50's as that lets me make a single 4-position block plug instead of the jumper that BM uses. Electrically the same, I think my method is a little neater, he would probably say his is more flexible

The only down side of my approach is that it means plugging in four pins at the same time which requires a little more hand / arm strength than plugging in a two pin SB-50.... But I only do it once for each time that BM does it twice....

ex-Gooserider