INVACARE GTRAC VS GEARLESS BRUSH LESS

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INVACARE GTRAC VS GEARLESS BRUSH LESS

Postby Mark Beau » 30 Dec 2010, 04:09

After 2 seperate Brand new Pride model 6000z Quantums failed miserably with controlling issues my dealer is throwing in the towel on this model and replacing it with an Invacare TDX SP with G-Trac Electronic Gyroscope module. (Meanwhile I am back in my old powerchair, a TDX 5 with gearless brushless motors.) Another new chair option is the TDX SR version with the gearless brushless motors.

Here's the question, according to the dealer the TDX SP with G-Trac Electronic Gyroscope is more reliable but has a top end of only around 5.8 Mph. My current TDX 5 (6 years old) with the gearless brushless motor has always been a dream to operate indoors and out no matter the terrain(barring sand and mud). My current chair goes about 7MPH as well.
The NEW TDX SR has gearless brushless as well with a top end of over 7 MPH but according to the dealer Invacare will soon be phasing out the gearless brushless motors due to problems. She said I was lucky that I have never had a problem. What do you reccomend?

BTW that new Quantum 6000z drove like a truck with bad power steering and was replaced less than a month after purchase. The one they replaced it with was just as bad within 2 weeks. Actually dangerous to operate and would not reccomend this model till they get the bugs out of it.
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Re: INVACARE GTRAC VS GEARLESS BRUSH LESS

Postby JoeC » 30 Dec 2010, 08:10

Reading this forum enough, and reading Burgerman's website enough, I think you'll find that the question is not as important as it sounds right now.

The main problem with 99% of powerchairs is that all of the control inputs are delayed, they lack power, and the weight is not on the drive wheels. I have tested a Quantum R4000, and it had all of these problems in spades. If the chair is programmed properly and your seat position is more or less on top of the drive wheels, then the different traction control gimmicks are much less necessary.

Now as far as the gearless brushless or the geared Invacare motors, that's a harder question. I have seen some of the recent Invacare geared motors, and it is true that they go less than 6 mph. The motors look superficially the same, and I would be surprised if there is anything different about them than a different number of windings to produce the lower speed. If you want to go faster in an Invacare, then the GB is the only way to go these days. That's what my wife is doing, and we're paying the extra for it.

I've heard that the GB motors are extremely reliable, except when they're not. That sounds funny, but what I mean is that they sound like they have a tendency to work great if they're not broken, but if anything goes wrong then they immediately stop working without warning. With traditional geared brushed motors, you will start to notice noise and a lack of power or range, but the motors will hang in there for a while as they degrade. The GB motors include various electronic sensors and memory that need to be in good working order for the chair to drive at all. As long as they're within the expected bounds, you're good. If one little wire comes loose inside, or if a sensor starts acting up, or various other subtle problems, the chair could stop dead. That's just inherent to how they've built the motors. If they didn't have so much safety checking, they'd probably be more reliable but might give a rougher ride or be more likely to continue operating until something actually burnt up. The designers deemed it to be safer to have the chair stop dead instead of potentially igniting, so it is what it is.

My problem with the Quantum (and other Pride gear) is that they seem so very guarded against anybody using it possibly understanding it, or working on it for him or herself. They don't make it easy at all to get your hands on a good programmer to take care of all the quirks that need to be ironed out from the user programmable settings. I've seen one person who had a good wheelchair technician working with him, and his Q6000z chair drove fine. Someone else I know had to have hers sent back to the factory (permanently) because the techs couldn't figure out how to set it up so that it wasn't a nightmare.
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Re: INVACARE GTRAC VS GEARLESS BRUSH LESS

Postby Burgerman » 30 Dec 2010, 10:52

After 2 seperate Brand new Pride model 6000z Quantums failed miserably with controlling issues my dealer is throwing in the towel on this model


All quantum chairs are like this. Your dealer only has a "dealer" programmer. And the problems are not fixable with that. It CAN be made to steer and be super accurate but that needs a low level (and hard to get) OEM programmer and all the delay and "accelerations" dialing out. As JoeC said above. It amazes me how bad they are and how they are so popular! Must be a lot of profit in there somewhere!

Read carefully! http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/powerch ... amming.htm if your dealer had a clue, he would already know this. Ordering a new chair was pointless. Your q6000 could have been super accurate and easy to steer. Although they are pretty hopeless outdoors.
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Re: INVACARE GTRAC VS GEARLESS BRUSH LESS

Postby Mark Beau » 30 Dec 2010, 17:17

Thanks for the response! The dealer just informed me that the new G-TRAC has a 12 month warranty VS a 5 Yr warranty
on the GB motor. Now theres a no brainer :roll: Why would I want to try a new model that:
A) Has a new drive system to get used to.
B )Goes slower
C )Has 1/5th the warranty.

More on the Q6000Z. I was strongley discouraged from ordering the high speed motor package as
my dealer knows I take on outside on grass, etc. She said it would bog down terribly on anything other than a flat
even surface. Heck, the reg motors were bad enough, hate to even think about the high speed motor package!
This debacle has been going on since July!
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Re: INVACARE GTRAC VS GEARLESS BRUSH LESS

Postby Seajays » 30 Dec 2010, 17:28

I never got any good advice on my " Z " and got the high speed motors . It sucks big time of pavement.
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Re: INVACARE GTRAC VS GEARLESS BRUSH LESS

Postby Burgerman » 30 Dec 2010, 17:42

8mph gearing is a step too far for gel batteries and stock (small amp) wheelchair controllers. thats why I always stayed with 6mph (and decent batteries and programming) on my MK2 chairs.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/Quickie ... e-f55s.htm

I then figured ot that to go fast needs more amps at 24v than any powerchair controller allows.
Hence the Roboteq controller used in my under construction chair. Roboteq page here... http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/roboteq.htm

This allows me to have 150 amps per side, with short term peak of 250 max amps per side... So 8mph motors have plenty of torque. Batteries allowing. So Odyssey AGMs need to be used. So now I can have 8.5 MPH groove motors and more torque than a good 6mph chair. And it allows 36v (up to 50v) so allows the same 8.5 motors to go at 12.75mph with no loss of torque or range. From the same motors and same total watt hours on the batteries. 3x PC1200 Odyssey.
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