Programming Otto Bock C2000

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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby c500user » 11 Aug 2016, 17:20

I think you are right about the CAN-FOX adapter being rebadged. The question remains if my 4.x problems are due to the CAN interface or an Otto Bock specific incompatibility. Will the 4.x software + CAN-FOX adapter work 100%? Or will it give the same "error reading menu" as my Chinese CAN adapter does?

I am using 3.12 build 35 update patch 6.
3.12 about.jpg


I guess I will have to take the plunge and give it a try. After reading some of the info on this site, I think that there is a lot of room for improvement!
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 11 Aug 2016, 17:24

What can I say ...your Ottobock uses an enAble 50 ...the enAble 50 is made by Curtis.

I can only speculate as to what is causing your specific problem.

Are you using a fairly short twisted pair to connect from the USB-CAN to your joystick?
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 11 Aug 2016, 17:35

.
CURT ENABLE OTTO.jpg
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby c500user » 11 Aug 2016, 17:39

woodygb wrote:Are you using a fairly short twisted pair to connect from the USB-CAN to your joystick?


I cut the TJ-45 connectors from a 6ft USB cable and used 1 pair between the CAN adapter and the joystick module. Also, this setup works fine with 3.12. The problem only occurs with 4.x.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby c500user » 12 Aug 2016, 20:07

I was unaware of the fact that changes are sent to the chair one at a time (real-time updating only the parameter that was changed). I had assumed the sw would send the complete configuration (old + changes) to the chair when you hit a "SAVE" button (i.e. batch update overwriting the old config) and was worried that this old 3.12 sw version would destroy settings that it did not know about. Luckily the fear was unfounded. I took the plunge and was able to reconfigure my C2000! Thanks everyone for your help and advice!

I am amazed how much better the chair responds. After having studied the old settings I was expecting a big difference and was not disappointed!

I came across something that I do not understand. I have 5 profiles in which I can define speed, acceleration, etc. Each profile also has a parameter called "Servo Behavior" (it is not a DEALER or SERVICE parameter but an OEM parameter). I do not want to change parameters if I do not know what I am doing, and normally would not have even looked at this one, but I was surprised to see that the value for profile 5 is different than for profiles 1-4.

Overview of all 5 profiles:
Schermopname (16).jpg

Details profile 4:
Schermopname (14).jpg

Details profile 5:
Schermopname (15).jpg

Does anyone have any idea what this parameter does and why the value is different for profile 5?

Thanks,

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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby Burgerman » 12 Aug 2016, 22:01

No idea what that does. But does you chair have powered casters?

One thing you don't mention is the turn acceleration. Turn Deceleration. And Minimum turn acc and minimum turn deceleration. Normally this needs setting from whatever ridiculous low figure they choose to 100 for all 4 settings. Then it steers when you tell it. And it STOPS turning when you tell it. But is your chair uses casters that are powered to steer, then those settings may be different or not exist and that servo setting may be instead of. Of course I could be talking bollox. :lol: But I don't really see what you can.

And your chair is really a scooter. With funny steering. So I suggest you watch to see the affect of servo max and minimum settings. It probably speeds up the steering delay and 'stop steering' now, delay too...
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby rover220 » 12 Aug 2016, 22:04

Do your castor wheels have servo steering?
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby Burgerman » 12 Aug 2016, 22:12

Yes I think. See above. The problem is going to be that its a fork lift truck layout. Steers from the rear -- and that's unstable from a basic chassis layout arrangement... Getting it to steer faster may make it swap ends or be hard to steer at speed because its going 'backwards'...
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby c500user » 12 Aug 2016, 22:35

Burgerman wrote:Yes I think. See above. The problem is going to be that its a fork lift truck layout. Steers from the rear -- and that's unstable from a basic chassis layout arrangement... Getting it to steer faster may make it swap ends or be hard to steer at speed because its going 'backwards'...


No, mine is RWD with servo steering at the front. None of your FWD jokes apply, haha.
Not sure why the servo parameter value would be different for profile 5 compared to profiles 1 through 4. The parameter is not listed in the C2000 manual.

BTW, I set turn acc and dec to 100% earlier, you can see it in the screenshot.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby Burgerman » 12 Aug 2016, 23:52

But what does it do?
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby c500user » 13 Aug 2016, 00:13

Well, that's what I was asking. I have no idea what it does and I don't want to change parameters I don't understand. Recipe for disaster, haha.
I would like to know if the fact that the values in profiles 1-4 are the same but in profile 5 is different is on purpose or an error in the way my chair was set up before it was delivered to me.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby Burgerman » 13 Aug 2016, 10:48

No doubt on purpose. Experiment and examine what it does by setting it really low, and really high and watching carefully. Then you will know.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby max78 » 17 Sep 2018, 12:54

Hi,

I like to use a Curtis enable 50 for a powersoccer chair.

But even if accerlation is set to max and the Ohm’s are high,
the accerlation at low speeds could be better.
It need some time until the controller gives the motor full power.

Can someone send me the Config-File (cpf) for this controller?
That I can take a look if there are special parameters.

On a similar controller there are parameters like Kp and Ki. I Think that would help. Or are there other parameters?

Thanks, Max
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 17 Sep 2018, 13:20

What level of programming access do you have?

The Q-logic uses the EnAble50

http://javafoundry.com/home/Q-Logic_Tec ... Manual.pdf

Also consider changing to a better battery like the Odyssey Range.
http://www.odysseybattery.com/
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 17 Sep 2018, 13:42

But even if accerlation is set to max and the Ohm’s are high,
the accerlation at low speeds could be better.
It need some time until the controller gives the motor full power.


This is more than likely a problem of the batteries being unable to supply the controller .... I.E. volts sag under load.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 17 Sep 2018, 14:23

I like to use a Curtis enable 50 for a powersoccer chair.


Your writing this request in the Otto-Bock C2000 thread ... I am assuming that you want a cpf file for the C2000?

CPF File
C2000F_10k_MM_24V_SW2.38_2015-10-28.zip
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby max78 » 17 Sep 2018, 14:29

Thanks a lot,

I'm using a B600 controller, it should be the same. (also Enable 50)
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby max78 » 18 Sep 2018, 09:25

I don’t think it’s a problem of the batteries. (The would push a bit more, but are not the main problem)

The PWM of the controller go’s up until about 5 km/h. Starting low at about 10% up to 100% at 5 km/h.
Also the Amperage go’s up from low to about 90A at 5 km/h. But the Motor should take 100A+ at low speeds.

I think the controller needs some time to go up to full power.

This file has no parameters for this.
Do you know if there are more parameters with a factory level programmer?
(A similar controller has Kp and Ki parameter, I think the will help for faster acceleration)
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 18 Sep 2018, 09:53

the Motor should take 100A+ at low speeds.
Yes... but only if the batteries can supply what the controller is asking for.

There are... as far as I'm aware .. no other parameters to tweak.

Have you measured the battery voltage under acceleration / load with a DECENT meter?
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 18 Sep 2018, 10:06

Care to share your cpf file?
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby Burgerman » 18 Sep 2018, 13:08

the Motor should take 100A+ at low speeds.

Yes... but only if the batteries can supply what the controller is asking for.


Unless motor load compensation is set way too low.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby max78 » 18 Sep 2018, 14:30

I have acceleration and power at 100 and Ohm’s as high as possible (80)
(I don’t have a programming cable, it will take some time to get the adapter)
For the first 0,5s the controller isn't asking for 100%

In the programming tool there are only a few parameters (Motor and Wheels), if you look with wordpad there are much more in the file (C2000F_...).

I think you need a higher access Level.

There are some sample files with more settings…. (Q-Logic), but you can’t change with the tool.
http://www.amltech.co.nz/programming.html
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby Burgerman » 18 Sep 2018, 14:34

Unless you have a cable, and OEM access you are all but wasting your time doing anything.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 18 Sep 2018, 15:04

max78 wrote:I have acceleration and power at 100 and Ohm’s as high as possible (80)
(I don’t have a programming cable, it will take some time to get the adapter)
For the first 0,5s the controller isn't asking for 100%

In the programming tool there are only a few parameters (Motor and Wheels), if you look with wordpad there are much more in the file (C2000F_...).

I think you need a higher access Level.

There are some sample files with more settings…. (Q-Logic), but you can’t change with the tool.
http://www.amltech.co.nz/programming.html


What level is your handheld ?... 1313-4331 is the OEM level

The OEM level of the PC Programmer shows an Ohm's setting MAX of 1000.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby Burgerman » 18 Sep 2018, 15:49

Setting higher in VERY SMALL steps when testing is essential, or you can produce a runaway.

I might add that if you need more than 45mOhm setting here, you are using weak high impedance and possibly 2 pole motors and so will never get good performance.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 18 Sep 2018, 15:53

80 mOhm appears to be the standard setting.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby max78 » 18 Sep 2018, 16:11

Sorry what I wrote was a bit confusing.
My configuration is 80 Ohm. I can set higher, but then the wheelchair is choppy and I didn’t gain much power.

Yes. OEM level.
I’m using NPC T74.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby Burgerman » 18 Sep 2018, 16:36

Then 2 things.

1 motors are fairly high impedance (causing 2 issues)

2 batteries.


Let take 1. above. In order to accelerate when you push the stick, the motor needs to draw Amps! The higher the motor impedance the greater the pulsewidth needs to be before this happens. So since this is time based, you need to wait for it to build to DOUBLE the pulsewidth compared to say the typical 45mOhm 4 pole motor. That means you wait half a second. Its the same as setting acceleration to 50. At first, for the first part of the acceleration curve.

2. battery voltage DROPS horrendously as you try to accelerate hard.
A 4.5mOhm battery like a BRAND NEW FULLY CHARGED 74Ah MK gel, is twice as bad as a 2.5mOhm 68Ah Odyssy PC1500 for eg. A trypical cheap AGM is 6 to 8mOhm!!! so gives 4X the voltage drop at the same current compared to the odyssey.

Watch te meter below. Large digits here are the real time battery voltage. Below this we have:
Peak HIGH.
Average.
Peak low.

Watch as the Peak low drops down to 18.9V in an instant as I accelerate for .2 of a second... Run it a few times.
A SIX VOLT DROP without even trying.

http://www.wheelchairdriver.com/gopro/voltdrop.mp4 vid, full screen...

If you want instant response you need:
Programming correct and things like averaging or smoothing or tremor damping removed.
LOW impedance batteries, thick cables.
LOW impedance motors.
100/120A power module.
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 18 Sep 2018, 16:46

http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/0-t74.html

24v & 210 Amps stall 0.114 Ohms per motor.

I think that the Ottobock uses steering off one channel of the controller and thus has only ONE Channel for both drive motors.

Making motor/s resistance 1/2 or 0.057 Ohms...
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Re: Programming Otto Bock C2000

Postby woodygb » 18 Sep 2018, 17:05

Markus is your steering via an actuator using J1 & J8 of the controller and do you have two separate motor drive channels?
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