Dealers are shocking

[c500user]

My new Permobil C500 was delivered on Friday and the technician comes later this week for adjustment of various lengths and heights. That way I would have a couple of days to try the chair and make a detailed list of what would need adjusting. Sounds good so far, but actually ...

Loose wires (forgot to connect a rear light) and a missing joystick ball were obvious problems. It got a lot worse when I transferred from my old chair to the new one. Something was very, very wrong with the back cushion. Unable to figure out what it was I transferred back to the old chair and removed the cover from the cushion. I could not believe what I saw!

As you can see the heating element is too long. Instead of ordering the correct size they just folded it. Did they really think I would not notice?

There must be a huge market for a company that is able to good service. Too bad the insurers and councils always award tenders to the same lousy big dealers.

[c500user]

When I asked on Friday (when the chair was delivered) if they had fitted the MK Gel batteries I had ordered this was confirmed. I found out today (by physically checking) that some unknown cheap brand had been installed instead. They will need to be replaced.

The seat cushion was to contain a Tempur foam insert. I had specified Tempur because it works well in my current chair while a few generic brands that I had previously tried led to pressure sores. Found out today that a generic, much stiffer foam insert had been fitted. It will need to be replaced.

The technician checked the chair today and it failed an actuator testroutine (inbuilt controller software test routine to test and calibrate all the actuators).

He confirmed today that the metal seat base is lower on the left than on the right. It is pulled 10mm off horizontal by the tilt motor when it is at its lowest position.

The metal seat base is 15-20mm higher than my old chair meaning I cannot use it at my desk. He confirmed it is 15-20mm higher than specified by Permobil.

The list goes on and on.
The technician decided to take the chair back to Permobil to get them to fix it.

I thought it was just the dealer that had screwed up but this is a brand new Permobil C500 that was built to order by Permobil. I guess quality control is not what it used to be. With all the bells and whistles this is a €29k chair!

Is it as bad as this in other countries? With other brands? What are your experiences?

[Burgerman]

Permobil don't fit cheap generic Chinese batteries as far as I know. That will be your dealer swapping them most likely.

[c500user]

Yes, the batteries is down to the dealer. Same with the Tempur and seat heater issues. But if a brand new chair fails a standard built-in self test it makes you wonder what tests Permobil themselves run (if any) before shipping a built-to-order chair to the dealer.

[expresso]

yeah i agree - - if you got the chair that way - the manufactor is at fault for the chair itself - the rest i guess dealer -

they swapped those batteries out - it happened to another friend of mines recently - he has a scooter - they put in a different size and different brand - which got him stuck in a day or two since - - - he called Pride - and confirmed the correct size and brand MK - not sure if its AGM or GEL -

this guy hes about 86 years old - and strong guy - my friend Eddie here - he went nuts - he was goint to ram his scooter into the dealer guy - he cursed him out after being told he couldnt watch to see what batteries they were going to put in -

he said get out of the way or i run you down - he did ran him down and wanted to swing at him - this company is called - landauer medstar - they suck - are the worst - i had it out with this vendor guy also -

from factory - they put MK in there - dealers usually now are replacing them with cheap ones when its time to replace - but to take them out of a brand new chair - thats a new low they are doing -

its more or less the same here also - everyone in the states and all over i guess -

[gcebiker]

A dealer here in Australia quoted me $600 more for new batteries than i could buy them from any regular battery shop...

The dealer that supplied my Q6 Edge chair refused to do basic repairs in my garage while i watch, insisting that it was a complicated job that could only be done in his workshop...which was two hours away and would have left me with out ANY chair to get about for a week !

A week , no loaner chair, no apologies, not even an attempt to see how well equipped my garage was.

Government ended up writing the chair off as the dealer would not budge. He just wanted to pad out his sales for the week.

There should be a register of some sort, to stop these dealers plundering the funding system.

[Burgerman]

The secret sauce here will be when the end user is the one with the buying power.

The services that provide the chair should assess and advise the user. And give THEM the money.

My goverment give me the cash now. After a huge fight some years back. I am in the process of doing that right now. I can easily get 35% discount and zero VAT from a few online dealers. That means list less 35% less 20% price before I start. If everyone did this it would be trivial to set up a list like this: https://www.trustpilot.com/categories/parcelservice


I can easily negotiate what i want, and warranty terms etc. And the service and speed things happen has to please the end user.

[expresso]

BM - your one of the Few if not the ONLY one who gets money from the Gov. to buy your own chairs - that wont happen here in the states - are you kidding - give Cash to someone - before you know - half of them would not buy the chairs and spend it -

it be a mess - i agree it would work great for the Few who would buy there own chairs - and make deals etc, - remember - i cant get anyone to use a Pl8 - too complicated for them - they want plug and play - -most want to be fed - dont know or care or want to get involved - some that say they do - havnt a clue either way -

they should be able to at least allow the few who may be able to - i just dont see it happening - how you managed to do it - thats great - i cant get any discount when i buy things - i call sunrise - go online for sunrise parts etc,

i ask for discount - paying out of pocket etc, i dont get it - they wanted 4 dollars for one bolt - nut - or screw - i got 25 of them off ebay for 3 dollars - its insane

dealers couldnt care less - all bull shit how they serve us and how they take care of everything - i think we all here would love to do what you do and get your deals - i doubt very much many do

[popschief]

Let's all cut out the middle-man,
Establish your own wheelchair dealership;
1. Send application.
2. Document commercial address.
3. Meet with factory rep at golf course.
4. Pay for round of golf, lunch and cocktails.
5. Offer him a week at your fully stocked lakeside mountain cabin.
6. Success, your in.

bp

[Burgerman]

BM - your one of the Few if not the ONLY one who gets money from the Gov. to buy your own chairs - that wont happen here in the states - are you kidding - give Cash to someone - before you know - half of them would not buy the chairs and spend it -

I could. But then I would have no powerchair and spend life in bed. Thats called the game of life. Or taking responsibility. Its also capitalism. Because it gives the user the spending power. Will drive prices down, quality and service up.

Here they used to pay rent directly to landlords for the non working. Now they give it to the user. They use it to pay their own rent. Or buy drugs and live on the street. They choose.

it be a mess - i agree it would work great for the Few who would buy there own chairs - and make deals etc, - remember - i cant get anyone to use a Pl8 - too complicated for them - they want plug and play - -most want to be fed - dont know or care or want to get involved - some that say they do - havnt a clue either way -

they should be able to at least allow the few who may be able to - i just dont see it happening - how you managed to do it - thats great - i cant get any discount when i buy things - i call sunrise - go online for sunrise parts etc,

i ask for discount - paying out of pocket etc, i dont get it - they wanted 4 dollars for one bolt - nut - or screw - i got 25 of them off ebay for 3 dollars - its insane

dealers couldnt care less - all bull shit how they serve us and how they take care of everything - i think we all here would love to do what you do and get your deals - i doubt very much many do

In the US, you all seem to want to let someone else be responsible for everything. Treated like children. I don't get it. But thats the reason you get stupid price fixing, terrible service.

If the BUYER had the cash, they would look after you like the car dealership or any other business does. Competition drives prices and deals. And service. And development for better products to attract the buyer.

[expresso]

well i wouldnt say that - but the Gov. is NOT going to give everyone who needs a wheelchair - the cost of it in Cash and have them go out and get there own - not going to happen - i understand its there choice if they spend it on drugs - etc or what ever -

that would be a disaster - it would be nice to have the option - maybe some can handle it and take the cash to make the correct choices - most either wont be able to - or Cant for one reason of another - not everyone is the smartest or knows whats best for them - i know alot of disabled people who just dont know - they need help to get the correct parts etc, adjustments -

anyway - its not our choice - the Gov. does what it does - i dont see it changing anytime soon -

So you mean to tell me - where you live - Everyone gets Cash for there chairs ? and they take care of it - ? or is there a special option you managed to use and get it your way ? how many others do what you do - Take the cash instead ?

alot of things sometimes sounds great on paper- - but dosnt work in real life use - maybe if a handful meets the qualifications if there were any here anyway - to be able to take matters in there own hands - would be interested to see how it works -

you got it good your way - not only because you get the cash to do what you want - the real trick is - that you know what you want , what you need and are able to get deals - make things work etc, - your way ahead of the game - thats great for you and for us here on the forum also -

[c500user]

The situation in Holland is that local councils supply wheelchairs (legal requirement). They do not physically supply the wheelchairs themselves, but outsource supply, maintenance, etc. via public tenders. Contracts are usually exclusive and for 4 years.
Guess which factor determines who gets the contract?

There are only a few large dealers in Holland that supply most (probably >90%) of the council funded wheelchairs. All the small dealers (that knew what they are doing and offered good service) have been forced out of business. Either because they were to small to meet the tender criteria (councils want to outsource more than just wheelchairs to a single party) or large dealers undercut them on price.

So, a large dealer gets an exclusive 4 year contract. Then they screw up. From day 1 of course.
After the dealer continuously screws up for a number of years and makes such a mess that the council has had enough (i.e. too many complaints from clients) they exclude the dealer from the next tender. So, the dealer A gets kicked out by council X (and is hired by council Y, long live the public tender system). Next time around, i.e. 4 years later, B (who was awarded the contract after A was kicked out) is kicked out and C comes in (because nothing has changed).
After 8 years dealer A gets the contract because no-one can remember how bad they were when they were kicked out.

I will explain more about the funding later, because that is a laugh as well.

[Burgerman]

So you mean to tell me - where you live - Everyone gets Cash for there chairs ? and they take care of it - ? or is there a special option you managed to use and get it your way ? how many others do what you do - Take the cash instead ?

We get choices.

We go to wheelchair services, or are sent there by a doctor, and they assess you. Often badly. This sometimes need your correction and a few arguments! But I digress.

They then offer you a chair to suit their remit. Which is:
A chair that suits your clinical, holistic and social requirements, and it can be anything from a manual chair, to a full blown specialist rehab setup. If you disagree, now you argue! I argued...
Then:
1. Accept it, they service, repair, replace every 3 or 5 years. Thats what most do.
2. They offer you a voucher to the same value, plus service, cushion, maintenance for 3 or 5 years. And a list of "approved" dealers that sell chairs in the UK to use this voucher. So you can add to it and buy something better/different.
3. They give you a cheque to bank. To build, buy, whatever you wish. (This is me only in the UK, I told you I argue!)
4. Skip all the above, (or add this to it) and use your Mobility allowance (about £57 or about $80 US weekly) to buy anything the hell you want!

[expresso]

So you mean to tell me - where you live - Everyone gets Cash for there chairs ? and they take care of it - ? or is there a special option you managed to use and get it your way ? how many others do what you do - Take the cash instead ?

We get choices.

We go to wheelchair services, or are sent there by a doctor, and they assess you. Often badly. This sometimes need your correction and a few arguments! But I digress.

They then offer you a chair to suit their remit. Which is:
A chair that suits your clinical, holistic and social requirements, and it can be anything from a manual chair, to a full blown specialist rehab setup. If you disagree, now you argue! I argued...
Then:
1. Accept it, they service, repair, replace every 3 or 5 years. Thats what most do.
2. They offer you a voucher to the same value, plus service, cushion, maintenance for 3 or 5 years. And a list of "approved" dealers that sell chairs in the UK to use this voucher. So you can add to it and buy something better/different.
3. They give you a cheque to bank. To build, buy, whatever you wish. (This is me only in the UK, I told you I argue!)
4. Skip all the above, (or add this to it) and use your Mobility allowance (about £57 or about $80 US weekly) to buy anything the hell you want!

Ok so then in that case - Everyone gets the same choices you do - and everyone can get a voucher for the total cost of the chair - and then are free to use it and get what ever they want - if adding a few hundred US dollars gets me what i want - thats great - i dont see why everyone there dosnt do that the,

we in the US - dont have those options - actually we dont have many at all - Unless our insurance purchases the chair -Medicare - Medicaid etc, - they wont even service a chair - or pay for service unless its purchased thur them -

so lets say i want to buy my own chair - and save the Gov. money - but want them to at least just service it - they wont - silly if you ask me -

someone posted somewhere i read about being offered a chair that goes only 4mph ?? thats insane - if he can get a voucher and get what ever - theres no problem - take the voucher and run - unless of course the voucher is worth crap -
thats the big difference - if you cant get anything with the voucher that suits your needs - and cant afford to add in the difference - then what ?

if we are talking a minor difference - its fine - but thousands difference - can be a hard on many if they cant afford it -

[c500user]

They then offer you a chair to suit their remit. Which is:
A chair that suits your clinical, holistic and social requirements, and it can be anything from a manual chair, to a full blown specialist rehab setup. If you disagree, now you argue! I argued...
Then:
1. Accept it, they service, repair, replace every 3 or 5 years. Thats what most do.
2. They offer you a voucher to the same value, plus service, cushion, maintenance for 3 or 5 years. And a list of "approved" dealers that sell chairs in the UK to use this voucher. So you can add to it and buy something better/different.
3. They give you a cheque to bank. To build, buy, whatever you wish. (This is me only in the UK, I told you I argue!)
4. Skip all the above, (or add this to it) and use your Mobility allowance (about £57 or about $80 US weekly) to buy anything the hell you want!

In Holland the situation is similar to 1, although power chairs are assumed to last 7 years. Problem is that the councils RENT them, so you cannot specify any extra's or changes and pay for them yourself.
A number of years ago an option was introduced where you can buy what you want, from who you want, up to the amount they would have paid if they supplied it. The problem is that they normally RENT the chairs and do not want to hand over large sums at a time because it disturbs their monthly budgetting. So, they discourage you actively from taking this option, scaring you about costs or repairs for which you are responsible and will not be reimbursed.
Note that you do not get a blank cheque for the purchase of the chair but can be reimbursed (up to the amount specified) but only if you supply an invoice for a chair that they deem to be suitable for your needs. You may have to fight them (if they do not agree the chair is suitable). The uncertainty over the reimbursement and future costs that may not be reimbursed scares many people back into the "council supplied wheelchair" category (which I think is what it was supposed to do).

Companies like Permobil deal mainly through large dealers that work nationally. I contacted a number of them to buy a new C500, but most were not interested to sell me one. They are used to dealing with councils through 4 year tender contracts and only want to supply in those areas. Not because of distance, but because the dealers have divided the market and do not want to upset their "competitor". They prefer the "renting" system: Easy money for them and they just give the client whatever they feel is required (or was left in their warehouse as surplus).

I rang 5 dealers before I finally found one willing to send me a quotation. Note that I had already filled out the order form and ticked all the boxes with regard to the options I needed. As I currently use my 7 year old C500 it was not difficult to figure out which options I needed for my new C500.

When you use a non-standard powerchair in Holland that is supplied by your council you do not want to move to a different city. The chair is provided by the council where you live. When you leave that council they are no longer required to pay for your chair and you are no longer elegible to use the chair they supplied, which must be returned. If you are lucky, your new council also has a contract with the same large dealer and you can continue to use your chair. If not, you can apply for a new chair after moving to the new council. For non-standard chairs with difficult made-to-measure options it can take up to 2 years before you receive it. I have no idea what those people do while they wait for their new chair to be delivered. People with council supplied chairs tend to stay put.

[Burgerman]

Well I just filled in 5 prescription forms, for a top of range Invacare brushless Storm 4 x-plore with my seating choices and options (almost all the expensive ones), and just emailed them to 5 large online dealers.
All got straight back with a price same/next day. And answered queries I had about seating, delivery warranty etc.
http://www.invacare.co.uk/storm-4-x-plo ... sto4xttpen

And all of them offered between 10% to 35% discount and zero VAT (20% purchase tax) without further prompting.

My email went:
Please supply your best price for the attached powerchair
spec attached prescription form: http://www.invacare.co.uk/sites/uk/file ... _Plore.pdf

Its that easy here. Done the same with chairs before.

Standard Features:
• Maximum user weight 150kg (23.5 stone)
• Gearless, Brushless Motors: 13km/h! 8mph
• HITEC X‐Plore rear suspension, and front castor suspension
• Modulite highly adjustable seating system: Flex3 set up
• Choice of Seat Widths from 380mm to 580mm (15" ‐ 23")
• Choice of Seat Depths from 410mm, 510mm (16" ‐ 20")
• Choice of seating upholstery
• Tension Adjustable Backrest
• Height and depth adjustable, removable armrests
• Manually settable seat tilt
• Manually settable backrest recline
• Angle adjustable legrest hangers
• Fixed, flip up footplates
• Choice of 6 production colours
• Puncture drive wheels and front castors
• 70Ah GEL batteries
• Lapbelt (adjustable both sides) and tool kit

Realise that the standard price of this (invacares most expensive chair with standard options) is £6550 less 35% = £4275 (And only about 1.5k more with electric powered everything and every top option ticked after discount).

[c500user]

http://www.permobil.com/Global/Netherlands/Prijsen%20juni%202016/C500(S)%20Corpus%203G%20NL%2006-2016.pdf

Check out the Permobil C500 pricelist. Base 10kph chair is more than €11k. We also pay VAT on wheelchairs, albeit 6% rather than 21%. Prices in pricelist are before adding VAT.

[expresso]

you can do that here also - to a degree -

i can email online stores with a sunrise order form - i am sure i get some off the cost - not sure how much - the prices are very different there than here in the US - 646se chair - i think starts at $8,600 then add the options -

seat lift and tilt - add another $10.000 - now you up to $18,600 - list goes on and on - before you know it - its over $25,000 - - now we know the insurance dosnt pay what they show it costs - so they may get back on a $40,000 chair -

wait let me check my invoice - ok i wont post it because i got my info. on it -

shows $37,240 - - what they expect to get paid - $14,230 - thats a huge difference - and they accept that -

now if i called my vendor tomorrow and told them - here give me the same chair - i pay you cash - no insurance involved - do you really think they will give it to me for $14,230 - not a chance - they will or may give me a break - talk all the bullshit and then say - ok give me $25, 000 you just saved $17,000 haha -

now i can find other online stores that i can buy a chair from - but they only do the basics - what ever options it shows on there site - so its a basic chair - same chair but may not have the back you need or the cushion or adjustments made etc,

bottom line - prices are very different everywhere -

now if i didnt need the tilt or seat life etc, - things would be easier - cheaper - if i had to pay $25,000 or $37,000 - i would just contact Tom Kilmore and buy one of his chairs even shipped to me would be tons cheaper i believe -

and then your on your own for repairs if you did that -

[expresso]

https://www.quickie-wheelchairs.com/Pow ... air/1428c0

this is on place you can order on line -- but the check off list is limited to basic things - not a custom chair really - if you can add it on by calling them and faxing them a order form filled out on your own - i am sure they can get back with a price -



http://www.sunrisemedical.com/power-whe ... s-6-series


http://www.sunrisemedical.com/power-whe ... e/p-222-se


first site is cheaper - - but also basic - once you start adding the power lifts and tilt - its almost triple that cost !!!

actually you may need a seating system done by another company - Motion Concepts - if you want a lift - - tilt is ok from sunrise - but not a seat lift on these models - - its more complicated than what it sounds like you can do there -

[Burgerman]

Those prices in the last two posts are frankly shocking to me. They are 3x to 6x what I would pay here with all the electric seating options and stuff added. So frankly there's something not quite straight with those prices.

Esp the American ones. They must have added the date in. They are taking the piss.

If I tick every box in the universe and get electric-everything and the most expensive rehab seating possible and a lift, 8mph, etc on say a top-of-line sunrise chair (quickie) or the Invacare storm 4 explore I still cant get it to double figures. And I get 35% off that! + 3 year warranty.

[expresso]

heres the order form for my 646se chair - its 2 years old now -

i bet it be more when i do my next one -

now that i am looking at this order better - i just realized i never got the gelwraps for my swing aways - i got so involved with other things at the time - didnt notice it till right now - i was more concerned that the anti tippers had to be lifted off the ground - and getting the correct swing aways because i didnt take what came with the chair - i had them order me the same ones i got from the P222se chair -

its always a dentist visit when dealing with them - and if its not on the order form but you know you can get it - becomes another dentist visit - to explain it to them - they know but dont want to deal with it -

oh well i write it down now for the next visit -

[expresso]

Those prices in the last two posts are frankly shocking to me. They are 3x to 6x what I would pay here with all the electric seating options and stuff added. So frankly there's something not quite straight with those prices.

Esp the American ones. They must have added the date in. They are taking the piss.

If I tick every box in the universe and get electric-everything and the most expensive rehab seating possible and a lift, 8mph, etc on say a top-of-line sunrise chair (quickie) or the Invacare storm 4 explore I still cant get it to double figures. And I get 35% off that! + 3 year warranty.

i told you - its not the same here in the US as it is there - or any other place i am sure - if you came here with you voucher or check they give you for a chair - you may get a chair - nothing like yours thats for sure

[Burgerman]

Well your system is very broke!

[expresso]

Well your system is very broke!

no its not broke - it was built to work this way - its broken for the users - the people - but not for them - works just fine for them -


now i am on the sunrise page - i used to be able to look up my serial here - and see what was ordered - cant anymore - they took it away - only dealers can do that now

i cant even search parts there either - i used to be able to - now cant

i can search parts on a online dealer for quickie - but not from sunrise themselves -
which the online dealer - dosnt know anything you ask them

they have to contact sunrise tech. to get the answer - just another middle man - or i can call sunrise tech myself and skip the online dealer

just makes it hard for us

[c500user]

We all know a USB charger costs a few dollars. The guy who sells them online charges $40 or $50 I think. Permobil lists it for € 138 + VAT.

A Neutrik connector costs a few dollars.
Checkout the price a Dutch dealer charges for an "original Permobil" connector:
http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/diversen/zorg-brommobielen-en-scootmobielen/a1052908957-laadconnector-3-pins-permobil-male.html?
How about the female part?
http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/diversen/zorg-brommobielen-en-scootmobielen/a1052908962-laadconnector-3-pins-permobil-female.html?

That's about 30 times the normal price for original Neutrik parts!

[Irving]

We get choices.

We go to wheelchair services, or are sent there by a doctor, and they assess you. Often badly. This sometimes need your correction and a few arguments! But I digress.

They then offer you a chair to suit their remit. Which is:
A chair that suits your clinical, holistic and social requirements, and it can be anything from a manual chair, to a full blown specialist rehab setup. If you disagree, now you argue! I argued...
Then:
1. Accept it, they service, repair, replace every 3 or 5 years. Thats what most do.
2. They offer you a voucher to the same value, plus service, cushion, maintenance for 3 or 5 years. And a list of "approved" dealers that sell chairs in the UK to use this voucher. So you can add to it and buy something better/different.
3. They give you a cheque to bank. To build, buy, whatever you wish. (This is me only in the UK, I told you I argue!)
4. Skip all the above, (or add this to it) and use your Mobility allowance (about £57 or about $80 US weekly) to buy anything the hell you want!

Generally you get offered what the Wheelchair Service has in stock , whether it meets your needs or not, because they've got a deal set up with local distributor - you then have to argue to get them to bring something else in... you'll get your own way, eventually...

Re point 3. NHS England are now committed to putting Wheelchairs (and other needs such as profiling beds, hoists, etc.) into the Personal Health Budget (I'm on the periphery of the working group looking into this). So this will become more common. I expect mine to come on stream in April when my is PHB reviewed. Not sure how it works where there isn't a PHB.

[CPguy]

I definately have the wrong job! I really should be a wheelchair dealer! Legal extortion is fun!

[Burgerman]

Re point 3. NHS England are now committed to putting Wheelchairs (and other needs such as profiling beds, hoists, etc.) into the Personal Health Budget (I'm on the periphery of the working group looking into this). So this will become more common. I expect mine to come on stream in April when my is PHB reviewed. Not sure how it works where there isn't a PHB.

I am no longer alone! A pilot scheme of one!

[Sully]

Expresso, BM, I pretty much we will see some kind of Voucher system initiated in the US, But that system will max out dollar wise well below the cost of a very basic chair. At least that is the scuttlebut I hear. There will also be a bunch of qualifiers attached as well. Qualified "providers" otherwise known as peddlers, and such as that. I seriously doubt the Internet sellers will meet those qualifiers (there goes the economy of the i sales scheme) Some shop full of jackasses 300 miles away will likely be your vendor. Expresso, you live in a city which has a population at least with the population of many of nations, with the ancillary businesses of a small nation within your reach, It would seem there must be at least one vendor who would meet most of your "needs".

[expresso]

hi Sully - yes i agree - the online guys wont be able to process your payment or voucher etc, - you will still be stuck with the same vendors - same bull -

i have not heard anything about a voucher system here - i wont be surprised though - and i am sure it wont be enough to get the chairs i have now -

with our new President and the crew hes bringing in - its going to be a very interesting next 4 years thats for sure -