PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pictures

[Dan]

My cells arrived yesterday. I guess the first thing to do is charge them up then leave them be a while.
Do I have to charge them individually? what are the settings for the PL8?

[expresso]

My cells arrived yesterday. I guess the first thing to do is charge them up then leave them be a while.
Do I have to charge them individually? what are the settings for the PL8?

I would charge them one at a time - it wont take too long - not many cells - and you can use this preset -

are you building a 30ah pack or 45ah ? 15ah Cells ?

[Gnomatic]

It is best to charge individually.

This is the preset BM posted for me when I asked the same question. You'll need to load it to the PL8 via PC.

Remove the .zip!

LiFe Charge ONE 10 12 15Ah Cell.PS8.zip

(3.19 KiB) Downloaded 303 times

[Gnomatic]

I see expresso beat me to it!

[Dan]

Thanks.

"are you building a 30ah pack or 45ah ? 15ah Cells ?"

16 of the 40152S 15ah cells.

[Dan]

Another couple of dumb questions. How do you when a cell is charged and what input voltage are we using on the PL8?

[rustyjames]

My cells will be here Thursday so I'm paying attention! I placed the order May 31, so it took 3 weeks.

[Burgerman]

Any voltage between 10 up to 30V input. Depends what power supply used.

When done? The presets that are user adjustable define the termination point. Its DONE when current falls to whatever mA level is specified. And then the graph stops and your PC screen tells you its done.

[Dan]

Thanks again for being so patient. I think each cell had been maybe charged to about 70% capacity.

Cell 1

[rustyjames]

As expected my cells arrived, and must say I'm happy with making the purchase through Evassemble. I checked all the cells and they all measured 3.34 volts, with maybe 2-3 measuring 3.33 volts. As noted I'm going to be using the Hyperion 1420i charger. Awhile back, reading/researching past threads, I pinched the following that I believe is the presets?:

Type: LiFe
Cells: 1 each 3.3 volt Cutoff Timer: OFF
Battery Capacity: 12,000 mAh Pre Peak Delay: Not Applicable
Charge Current: 3 amps Trickle Current: Not Applicable
Discharge Ampere: 3.0 TCS Capacity: 100%
Discharge Volts: 3.6V TCS End Action: Continue
Peak Sens: Not Applicable TVC Adjust Voltage 3.600: 0 mV
Cutoff Temp: 50 C PB Batt Float Voltage: Not Applicable
PB Batt Charger Voltage: Not Applicable
Set Store %: 60

Thanks in advance for any info.

[Burgerman]

Theres no way to set a end current on the hyperion. So when measuring capacity, you just have to hit stop once the thing beeps to say its finished. Or it will after a few mins go back to topping up. So measuring capacity returned isn't easy. Otherwise as you are!

[rustyjames]

Ok, Thanks Mr. B. Your guidance is appreciated!

[expresso]

I figure i post this here - I build the first ADD ON in the winter of 2016 - 36ah - using 12ah headway cells - this went on my P222se chair with MK GEL 24 batteries which were already used a good full year alone and charged with a dumb charger at 28.8V -

i been using the chair since then with the 36ah ADD ON - and my experince has been a good 25 Miles on a charge - today for the first time i am charging them up separate to see how much lead is actually left - and how the 36ah ADD ON is holding up -

From what i see with the Lead charging now on the PL 8 - dosnt look like i have much left in the lead - looks like its only been using about 22Ah of lead which means its really dead - or half dead -

the lead is about 3 years in use - First year on lead alone -

i will post the results when i am done - this leads me to believe that if i were to use a Brand new set of Batteries with the ADD ON - i may get more than 25 miles on a charge - i would say maybe 30 Miles on a new set of MK GEL based on the fact that its only putting back close to half now and i still manage 25 Miles -

i am doing this so i can compare this later on - will be getting New Lead in a few weeks -

after 25 mile ride - time to enjoy

[expresso]

espresso

[Dan]

Pizza is always good What app are you using? I have been using navmii satnav on my phone to navigate my way round strange places.

[expresso]

Ullyess something like that - have to check - almost done charging the lead - on CV stage and dropping - looks like its going to be about 27 or 28ah put back in
more than i though -

still alot less than a new set of lead would be - not bad for 3 years of use - first year not charged correctly and on lead alone so used harder - if taken care of with new Batteries with a ADD ON - good 5 years - you can get out of lead - worse case is your notice less range over time - 20 miles would be considered less range

so if you only get 20 miles out of it - you know your lead is about dead - for most people even 20 miles is great - and they can keep using it a few more years before it affects them enough to change out the lead - in my case i am used to 20 miles and dosnt feel enough for me -

[expresso]

Just finished charging up the Lead Alone for the first time in years - since i connected the ADD ON -

got back 28ah - so its still OK - if you used it alone - its not good at all - but with the ADD ON - i get 25 miles still - i was expecting less than 28ah returned

i will get a new set of batteries in a few weeks - after i break them in - i will do this again to see how much a difference a new set is compared to this one -

i think i can get 30 miles with a new set -

[expresso]

here is the ADD ON alone - monitored it for few mins. i then discharged it to 2.9v - and recharging it now -

took only a few mins to get to 2.9V - all my cells where in the 3.0V area so pretty much used up

[expresso]

First time Recharging ADD ON since i added it to lead -

[expresso]

it put back a bit less than 36ah - i figure one of two reasons - the pack wasnt discharged fully on all groups to 2.9v before it stopped - two weaker groups are 2.9v while others are at 3.0V - nothing you can do about it - always will be a weaker group - have to respect the weakest group

i never did nothing to this other than charge each cell when i got them and put them together -

or its can mean that since its worked harder being small pack - its aging - either one of those reasons - and either one is fine - IF this pack ages at this rate
it will be 5 years in use and still be at 30ah usable - IF thats the case - and thats still great - 5 years you would have extended your range easy to 25 miles and maybe more with a new set of lead - and saved your lead for 5 years also -
this is a graph of the most recent charge Combined with the lead - graph looks much better when they are combined and left alone - charge together

[shirley_hkg]

I wouldn't recharge an empty cell @0.5C .

Good luck , again .

[expresso]

I wouldn't recharge an empty cell @0.5C .

Good luck , again .

Explain ? the lead or the lithium ? or both ?

[Burgerman]

He means lithium. But the headway are 10C load, and 5C charge capable.

That means you can charge at up to, 5x the capacity in Ah. So you COULD charge a 30Ah pack at 5x 30Ah or 150A maximum. But the slower you charge lithium the batter it likes it. To a point. So he probably means he would charge more slowly than you are doing.

[expresso]

that was what i though - but with me - sometimes never sure - so always good to get details - this was once i charged the smaller pack alone at that rate - which is still well below what it can do - either way - slower is fine - i like to get it done before i go to sleep - i normally charge it as a whole pack with lead combined - at 15A or 18A - since i am using the 12V PSU -

i dont charge over night - the last PL 8 i had - flames came out of the rear fans - when i seen that - yes it was a bad unit - got it replaced - not a problem since - but to think i be sleeping and having that going in the other room - all i think about is flames shooting out

i feel better sleeping knowing its all done - shut down - etc, - if i really have to because of time concerns - i can leave it going at a much slower rate overnight - i have done it once or twice before - i just prefer to get it done before i close my eyes -

under normal conditions - this is really a larger pack combined with lead - dont think its that fast a charge rate -

i always noticed - since reading on here from the start when i joined - you BM - always with the fast charge rates and the beauty of that - if needed - Shirley on the other hand - always with the slower charge rates - i consider myself somewhere in the middle - i have used 35A with the 105 pack the whole first year using it since i use the whole thing mostly - not going to charge at 8A - i have since lowered that charge after adding the 30ah ADD ON to it - since i charge both separate - 30ah at 12A charge - 105ah at 15A or 20A charge depending how much i discharged -

i be dead before the battery gives out -

[Burgerman]

Its all about time. You gotta do what you gotta do.

If if in a real hurry you could charge at 150A and still withing safe limits. But keep doing it and it doesn't last long. But even 1C is pretty mild on those. 1/2C shouldn't be an issue. I doubt they get more than slightly warm to the touch. The real issue that shortens life is heat of course.

Heat ages them faster.
Cold! (don't charge at low temperatures)
High discharge rates.
High charge rates.
Being too low,
Being too high...

They like everything average!

Store half full (35 to 70%)
Store cool. Not below freezing. A few degrees C is best.

This stuff is why a DECENT charger and charge at a controlled 3.55 to 3.6V per cell. Not 3.65 to 3.7 as typical BMS allows is superior. And why a big pack lasts MUCH longer.

[Burgerman]

Just finished charging up the Lead Alone for the first time in years - since i connected the ADD ON -

got back 28ah - so its still OK - if you used it alone - its not good at all - but with the ADD ON - i get 25 miles still - i was expecting less than 28ah returned

Charge...
Lithium, use 100Ah, put back 105Ah.
Lead use 100Ah and depending on charge rate, and actual depth of discharge put back 125 to 140Ah. So its hard to tell by what you are doing.

Discharge a 100Ah battery

Lithium take out 100Ah in 1 hour, empty. (plus or minus 5%)
Lithium take out 100Ah in 20 hours, empty. Same thing. Its a fuel tank.

Lead try to take out 100Ah in 1 hour and the battery gives about 40Ah, and its "dead"... (Worse, the battery voltage goes lower than needed to run a powerchair long before that 40Ah arrived).
Lead take out 100Ah in 20 Hours, and you get all of its 100Ah.
Lead take 100Ah out, over a day / week, and get 110Ah.

[expresso]

Ok sounds good - i am not over abusing it then - i guess i find out sooner or later - Range was the main reason for doing lithium - then the charge rate also

i will be putting these headways to the test - they will either come out a winner or short life a loser - i feel fine - not too worried about it - as long as i am getting 25 miles out of them - with 3 year old lead - who complaining

Curious to see what i get with a new set of MK GEL 24 after the break in - i bet 30 miles with this chair - -

[Dan]

So I got my cells and charged them up and left them to discharge by themselves for a bit. I believe this is done so that they can be sorted into groups that hold about the same amount of charge that can get charged evenly by the charger? This is why the PL8 charger has balancing leads, so it can give a little bit extra to a group of cells that have less charge?

This would be groups of four?
There are 9 leads in the balance cable. Red at one end and black at the other with white inbetween. What way do the cables work and what is the best way to number them?

I'm building a little 16 Cell with 15ah Cells.

My next big question will be how do I fit it to my chair? Its going to be a Invacare storm 4 xplore. I will want to be able to charge them together.

[Burgerman]

So I got my cells and charged them up and left them to discharge by themselves for a bit. I believe this is done so that they can be sorted into groups that hold about the same amount of charge that can get charged evenly by the charger?

No its done because if charged full. Correctly. And then allowed to sit for say a month. Then we can charge each one again and see how many mAh it has lost. All cells lose energy or leak over time. But they are very inconsistent. Some leak a lot, some hardly at all. It means you can assemble groups of cells that have the same TOTAL loss. Meaning your 8 groups will not get out of balance when stored.

I don't know where you plan to fit a 60Ah pack as an add-on in that chair. Unless you mean just 2 cells per group, and 8 groups? 30Ah? It will need to be the seat back.

[expresso]

So I got my cells and charged them up and left them to discharge by themselves for a bit. I believe this is done so that they can be sorted into groups that hold about the same amount of charge that can get charged evenly by the charger? This is why the PL8 charger has balancing leads, so it can give a little bit extra to a group of cells that have less charge?

This would be groups of four?
There are 9 leads in the balance cable. Red at one end and black at the other with white inbetween. What way do the cables work and what is the best way to number them?

I'm building a little 16 Cell with 15ah Cells.

My next big question will be how do I fit it to my chair? Its going to be a Invacare storm 4 xplore. I will want to be able to charge them together.

Dan - your going to make a 30ah Pack - look back from Page one here - i have pictures - you can follow them - it will show you how to arrange the Cells - attach the balance wires etc, -

when you say a BIT - what does that mean - Did you charge each Cell with the PL 8 Full and left them ALONE for a MONTH or TWO ? at least a MONTH is fine - before you continue ?