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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 07 Aug 2017, 15:52

Do you have to use two fuses for making the lead - one on each cable like the original cable for the Charger ?

or would just one fuse be ok on either pos or neg. ?
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 07 Aug 2017, 15:56

Two is safer. I use one. The only thing they protect are the cables. With protected banana plugs its almost impossible to short the chairs or any battery out. Unless the insulation gets trapped and rips. And the best place for the fuse is at the chair end. Or on the chair in the charge cable.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 07 Aug 2017, 16:04

Ok - i have no fuses on the Charge Cable on the Chair end - its on the Charger end cables - originals come with two fuses - one each cable - the Chair of course i have the breaker on the battery pack - i was under the impression thats fine this way ?

i dont recall discussing about fuses on the Charge Cable on the Chair end -
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 07 Aug 2017, 16:18

Dont worry.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby ex-Gooserider » 08 Aug 2017, 02:18

snaker wrote:I see the PL8's stock charge cable is too short (50cm?). I want to extend it to about 100cm. Could you recommend for me an 'easy' way to implement it.
http://www.store.revolectrix.com/Produc ... Stackable-

I am thinking about using "butt splice" connectors to extend the cables. Is it safe enough?
https://youtu.be/pdBcPJ7Dtaw


Any sort of crimp connectors are not going to be as good as a length of wire that is the correct size, and are only going to be as good as a soldered connector if PROPERLY crimped with the right tooling exactly per specs... I get extra paranoid about them in cases where the connection is for high currents, like it is in the PL8 charge cables...

I really don't like using crimps if I can avoid it, but they are OK for terminating a wire when done properly... I will only use a 'butt splice' if it is not practical to replace the entire wire... I will also be far more inclined to do a soldered splice instead....

On fuses and when / where to use them....

The purpose of a fuse is to protect the wiring in a circuit from excess current draws in the event of a short circuit or excess current draw...(the purpose of the expensive electronics is to protect the cheap fuse... :roll: ) This tells us that the only place a fuse is needed is when there is a possibility of excess draw... So the ONLY place a fuse is needed is next to, and as close as possible to the current source.... The fuse needs to be sized to be appropriate for the SMALLEST size wire in the circuit it is protecting.... In a branching circuit this may mean multiple fuses, one large one to protect the 'trunk' and a smaller one to protect each 'branch'

So if you have a battery, you want a fuse in the leads coming from it, as close as possible to the battery as practical. In a typical car, with negative ground, the fuse should only be in the positive lead and NEVER in the negative... On our chairs, the fuse can be in either the positive or negative lead, only one is NEEDED but no harm to put one in both. However by convention it is normal to put the fuse on the positive side...

If you have a power supply, you need a fuse or other protection on the output, again by convention only one is needed, and it should be in the positive lead - and if the supply already has adequate protection built in, then it isn't really needed other than for redundancy.

In US AC, all fuses (and switches) should be on the HOT wire, NEVER on the Neutral, and NOTHING should be able to interrupt the earth ground wire (which also should never have any current on it...)

So the PL8 gets power from a supply, and can both source and receive power on its output side....

The power supply (battery or other) SHOULD have protection already, but it might be heavier wire than the PL8 supply wire (the line from my car battery is AWG 6 with a 150A breaker) and isn't guaranteed to be there, so it does not hurt to put a fuse in the positive lead, PL8 spec page says it has a 60A max input current, so any fuse a bit over that would work. Per the standard of putting the fuse close to the source, it should be next to the plug.... Since it can be plugged into a vehicle, there should NOT be a fuse in the negative lead. If you are sure that you are never going to be drawing more than a certain amount of current on the input side, you can use a smaller than 60A fuse, as long as what is used is more than your expected maximum draw... (It might even be a good idea if you want to be sure a power supply never pulls more than a certain amount from the mains, even if the PL8 gets set wrong...)

The output side of the PL8 is supposedly protected, and there SHOULD be a fuse in the wiring between the chair's charge connector and the batteries (as close as possible to the battery as practical) so in theory it shouldn't need a fuse in the charge lead, but again it wouldn't hurt...

I've never seen anyone talk about putting fuses in the balance wires - though there are options that could be used.... Again since supposedly there are protections in the PL8, if I was fusing the balance wires, I'd want to put the fuses (and you would need one for each wire) next to the batteries....

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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby snaker » 13 Aug 2017, 09:16

expresso, can you post the link where you bought your current heat gun?
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 13 Aug 2017, 15:27

snaker wrote:expresso, can you post the link where you bought your current heat gun?


https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1


https://smile.amazon.com/Bestgle-Shrink ... ni+heatgun

the one i got no longer can get - but its the same as above link - -

the torch same thing - they dont have it - but there are dozens around - you can choose from - i use the torch just for making cables etc, - the mini heat gun for heatshrink on the wiring after they are made
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby snaker » 14 Aug 2017, 01:48

Thanks expresso. The torches in your link are nice and their prices are reasonable. I only find 1-2 torches around here, all looks low quality, unsafe but costs $50. Electric tools and parts here are rare and expensive.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 14 Aug 2017, 02:34

yeah what can we do - prices are crazy - and BM thinks my prices are crazy here compared to UK - we cant win -
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby snaker » 17 Aug 2017, 02:03

Burgerman wrote:Squash flat with pliers... Solder!
download/file.php?id=6917

BM, can I do this with 8 awg power cables? I mean directly soldering a 125A/32V MIDI fuse on a 8 awg cable. Is it safe enough?
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby shirley_hkg » 17 Aug 2017, 02:17

Not recommended for main cables , due to higher resistance of solder .

Bolt and ring terminals .
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 17 Aug 2017, 02:33

I disagree. I doubt theres any measurable resistance difference. And in fact would expect a soldered connection to be just as good initially, and the crimp to get worse as things oxydise over time even if it was as good to begin with. I have seen so many bad crimped connections that I never consider using crimping alone as secure enough on anything thats bigger than balance wires. So yes!
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 17 Aug 2017, 03:11

why even bother with Fuses on the Main pack in the chair - why not just use a Breaker - wouldnt that be best ?- if it ever trips - you just reset it -

and not worry about fuses to change etc, i mean if you solder a fuse - its a pain to change it - i never had one blow or trip on any chair so far - so it shouldnt but in the event it did - would be easier with a breaker -
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby snaker » 17 Aug 2017, 03:33

expresso wrote:why even bother with Fuses on the Main pack in the chair - why not just use a Breaker - wouldnt that be best ?- if it ever trips - you just reset it -

and not worry about fuses to change etc, i mean if you solder a fuse - its a pain to change it - i never had one blow or trip on any chair so far - so it shouldnt but in the event it did - would be easier with a breaker -

My dad removed the breaker away. It's weak just 50A. I had bad experience with breakers, they caused more troubles than protecting. Maybe that's because all my chairs are cheap and they use low quality breakers. I am living in a chaotic society, everything is unsafe and everybody is familiar with unsafe things. All that BM has done and showed are new and strange to people here but we all see that's better, safer. I will try to follow as much as possible. Hoping it could reach 50% at the end.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby rustyjames » 14 Sep 2017, 22:25

One of my chairs has a set of AGM group 24 batteries that are probably about 4 years old now. When I fully charge them and let them sit overnight the voltage is 25 volts. Would it be ok to connect the add on pack? I don't want to hurt my new investment.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 14 Sep 2017, 23:06

rustyjames wrote:One of my chairs has a set of AGM group 24 batteries that are probably about 4 years old now. When I fully charge them and let them sit overnight the voltage is 25 volts. Would it be ok to connect the add on pack? I don't want to hurt my new investment.



You can connect it - but your going to really be working your ADD ON pack the most - any lead battery 4 years old no matter how easy you used it or charged etc, cant be in good enough shape -

it would be best to get a New set of Lead - MK Gel if you can - and if you can - charge them first one at a time - then install - and use the ADD ON -

this would give you the best performance and last the longest - i think even any new battery would be better to use with the ADD ON instead of those 4 years old - but if you cant change the lead now - you can use the ADD ON and then change the lead when you can - you just wont get the best range out of it this way and work the lithium more since those lead you have is really dead at 25V i think -

or if you like - just use those lead till you feel they dont work for you anymore - then connect it with a new set of lead - will work either way you choose -
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 14 Sep 2017, 23:28

25 volts?

Thats basically 60% discharged voltage, or almost dead... You will just waste all the power of your lithium trying to charge ruined lead bricks.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby rustyjames » 14 Sep 2017, 23:31

Thanks guys, that confirms what I was thinking. I guess I'll buy a new set of MK's and start fresh.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 14 Sep 2017, 23:47

yes best way to go - i just did that to my chair with the ADD ON also - got new set of MK from insurance last set for this chair - this way - you should be good for a while - if you had lead 4 years old - new MK with the ADD ON - should last you a long time

i charge it once a week if i dont use the chair at all - if i use it - i charge each time after use with the PL 8 - i also charge it before i use it if its been sitting a week and i want to use it - i would charge it first - then use it -
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Sep 2017, 02:56

ALL of you guys would benefit from a power cut off link, or switch. All my chairs have them. A modern lead or lithium battery loses virtually nothing if stored as long as the thing is DISCONNECTED from the chair. Just one cable, no circuit.

An AGM like odyssey, or mk gel, have extremely low self discharge rates. So stored disconnected, they dont need a top up charge other than every 4 to6 months. Just charge very full, pull the link. Forget about them for 4 to 6 months.

The only reason you need to keep topping up is because the chair itself sucks power out all the time, even when off. 6mA to 30mA is typical if turned off. And 100 to 150mA if left on in error.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby popschief » 15 Sep 2017, 17:20

Lead brick question;
I have 5 powerchairs around here. Cheap ebay junkers with seat and tire and wiring changes to suit my particular needs. Every one received a new set of batteries when it arrived. Now we have completely lost track of these batteries, when they were purchased, how much they were used etc. I would like to know if it is possible to somehow check each set and determine their capacities? Can the PL8 do this and if so how is it accomplished? Would have been smart to mark them with at least a purchase date. Hindsight 20/20.

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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 15 Sep 2017, 17:36

yes thats a good idea now that i have a few chairs - and in the winter time mostly - - what would i have to do to make that happen with the Cut off etc, ?

thanks BM
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 15 Sep 2017, 20:08

Easy.

Test 1 at a time.

Set 12V 6S only, discharge at the 20 hour rate, and compare to the rated spec.
So for eg an MK grp24 is designed to give 73Ah at the 20h rate.

If you discharge at 7.3A thats the 10h rate. So you discharge at half this, or 3.65 or 3.70A and tell it to stop at 10.5 volts. Be sure to specify 24 hours or longer in safety, etc. And no CV discharge.

You can test also test faster over 10 hours, if you change the discharge level to 7.3A. But you will get less total Ah out (around 71.1Ah).

Or just use this (USE IT TO FULLY CHARGE BEFORE, AND AFTER TOO):
If you need an AGM one let me know.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby popschief » 16 Sep 2017, 04:30

Thanks John. Now I'll put the shiny new charger through it's paces. ;)
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Dan » 16 Sep 2017, 14:09

expresso wrote:Dan - your going to make a 30ah Pack - look back from Page one here - i have pictures - you can follow them - it will show you how to arrange the Cells - attach the balance wires etc, -
when you say a BIT - what does that mean - Did you charge each Cell with the PL 8 Full and left them ALONE for a MONTH or TWO ? at least a MONTH is fine - before you continue ?


Yes I had fully charged each cell when I got them. They have now been sitting for a few weeks. I'm charging them back up. I numbered each cell when I first charged them.

I'm looking for the capacity returned to each cell? This one is 179mAh.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 16 Sep 2017, 15:18

Dan wrote:
expresso wrote:Dan - your going to make a 30ah Pack - look back from Page one here - i have pictures - you can follow them - it will show you how to arrange the Cells - attach the balance wires etc, -
when you say a BIT - what does that mean - Did you charge each Cell with the PL 8 Full and left them ALONE for a MONTH or TWO ? at least a MONTH is fine - before you continue ?


Yes I had fully charged each cell when I got them. They have now been sitting for a few weeks. I'm charging them back up. I numbered each cell when I first charged them.

I'm looking for the capacity returned to each cell? This one is 179mAh.


that seems pretty high for a Cell sitting for only two weeks - thats even high for two months sitting - Two weeks is really not enough - At least a month sitting after fully charged - - OK if you going to continue this way - i would put that Cell aside for the moment and continue with the rest of the cells and see what you get back in mAh returned -
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Dan » 16 Sep 2017, 15:26

It was a few weeks. Just checked the date they were charged. It was early July so they haven been sitting about eight weeks.

Highest returned so far is 275mAh, the lowest is 105mAh.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 16 Sep 2017, 15:32

Dan wrote:It was a few weeks. Just checked the date they were charged. It was early July so they haven been sitting about eight weeks.

Highest returned so far is 275mAh, the lowest is 105mAh.



if i recall mines - were all much lower - those all seem high - not sure what that means but if they are all similar - i guess you can match them the best you can - you can try to test them again - discharge one and then recharge it again to see how much it returns -

you are making a 30ah pack - 16 15ah Cells ?
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Dan » 16 Sep 2017, 15:40

"you are making a 30ah pack - 16 15ah Cells"

Yes, I hope so. I bought 18 15AH cells in July.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 16 Sep 2017, 16:49

Dan wrote:"you are making a 30ah pack - 16 15ah Cells"

Yes, I hope so. I bought 18 15AH cells in July.



Did you finish recharging all your Cells ? when you do - post the results - - i would want to check them again maybe - either do a discharge of each cell - remember dont go below 2.7 or 2.9 V during your discharge - i think 2.9V is good enough and then recharge and check how much each Cell is when full also -
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