PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pictures

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PINNED - ADD ON PACK Step By Step 30ah Pack build / pictures

Postby expresso » 29 Apr 2017, 17:44

I know this is nothing special - but i realize alot of users may be imitated with this stuff - like i was and still dont know all i need to know - So i will try to post pictures of how to make a small ADD ON pack - which i think many users can do - at least to feel comfortable etc, - dont require alot of up front money - dont have to get in your chair - etc, - and can be moved from chair to chair if you have more than one chair -

if i am wrong as i go along here - i am sure BM will jump in to correct me :)

i am using 15ah Cells - 16 of them - for 30ah pack - two Rows - easily hang this in a Messanger bag on the rear of the chair and plug it in a cable which would be connected to the batteries in the chair - SB50 - thats the connector of choice - but you are free to use which ever you like - in my case - on the chair end is a SB50 - but on the battery end i will be using a XT90 - reasons for this is - its very hard to connect and disconnect the SB50 - for me and for my girls - this pack will be charged separate from my Chair pack - so i need to disconnect it each time i charge it - the XT90 will make that easy to do - i have been using 10AWG wiring for this cable - you can use 8 AWG if you like - i have been using 10AWG for a while on my other chair and have no issues so far - my reason again for using 10AWG is the XT90 connectors are not large - so even 10AWG was a little work to solder to them - but i Wont go below 10AWG cable for the connection to the chair -

if you like you can also 8 AWG cable on the chair end - in my case again i have 10AWG because i am using XT90 connectors there also - very tight room and those fit much better and easier to work with when removing etc,

they do handle up to 120A - and 90A constant -

here we go -

First Step -

Buy the Cells you want to use - i am using 15ah Cells - 16 Cells -
charge them and let them sit as been told many times on here - keep track of the Cell numbers - how much you put back in mAh over a month of discharge or longer - which ever you like - mines happen to be sitting for 3 months - i wasnt in a rush and got busy with other things -

but at least a good month is fine - anything more even better -


when your all done recharging them and taking down the mAh returned - then you want to group them to make a close pack - i believe thats discussed already how to do that - i just say it quickly - if i miss a step - please correct me

Add up all the cells discharge amount - then divide that number by 8 - and thats the target number you like to reach with each Cell group -

in this pack i just made - i managed to get the lowest to be 162mAh - and the highest 165mAh - but i did have 24 cells to work with - which i only used 16 Cells - so numbers will vary -

i will post pictures of the orange blocks - how to arrange them for the bottom row - and the Top which is different - i use 4 hole bus bars mostly - 2 hole is fine also - if you needed


Hope this helps anyone who like to see pictures along with details of how its done - i know i like to see the pictures :)
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 29 Apr 2017, 17:49

Orange Blocks

top picture is the Top Row -

Bottom pic is the bottom row
Attachments
Bottom Row.jpg
Top Row.jpg
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 29 Apr 2017, 17:51

1st pic is the bottom view

2nd is the top view
Attachments
30ah Top View.jpg
30ah Bottom View.jpg
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 29 Apr 2017, 17:52

Cells in place - connected with bus bars

1st pic is the bottom view - numbered 1 3 5 7

2nd is the top view numbers 0 2 4 6 8

i find the labels helpful - as long as they dont get in the way of any screws or wires you will use -
Attachments
Top View.jpg
Bottom View.jpg
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 29 Apr 2017, 18:00

balance wires and some charge wire - i havnt finished the other ends - will be using those XT90 connectors - and will update here when i done with those - need to solder them -
using 12awg for the charge cable - and 10 awg for the cable going to the Chair - i will also add another 12awg cable - in the event i want to add something like a horn or lights to run off the battery - i will have a extra connector free for those items - i may not use it - but i may for a horn if i decide one day - either way - it will be there - and i wont have to go inside my chair battery - this would be much easier for me this way - thanks to Gnomatic for that idea -

this is all i have done so far - thanks to Quickie and my other girl who both helped me all day yesterday -

whats left here is to finish up the wires with the XT90 - then make a cable to go to the chair end SB50 - which i have to make a little longer because of the seat lift - it has to be long enough to use it fully and not worry about it -
Attachments
Balance Wires.jpg
Wires.jpg
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 29 Apr 2017, 18:09

thats about almost done really - i think anyone can do it with some help and time - etc, learn the details - solder - etc,
when i continue - i will post back

the balance wires are cut in half from 36 inch cable - i use the female end on the Battery side - - same with the other connectors - Female end on the batter side -

in the end i will make a Charge Cable also with the Sub D connector - and leave it on the pack in the Bag - that would make it easier to charge with one connector to the PL 8 - and charge both your ADD ON and Lead batteries in your Chair same time - you dont have to disconnect anything - if you use the ADD ON with Lead in your chair - and in this case - you can use a SB50 end on both the pack and chair if your not going to disconnect it at all -

in my case - this ADD ON will be used along with the 105ah in the chair - so i have to disconnect them in order to charge them correctly - reason i am using the XT 90 Connector -

this is like insurance for my 105ah pack in the chair - i shouldnt get low enough on any of the Cells groups once this is on it also - if i stay with in its limits - i say 45 miles and i wont have to worry this way - i may be able to get more out of this

135ah pack - maybe 55 miles - but then i be back to having to be concerned about the lowest cell group - - i will be making a Cell monitor also now - just to be able to see the cell groups outside after at least 30 miles - i can take a peek -
i dont think anything below that is a concern - but always good to know -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 30 Apr 2017, 03:54

Very proffesional!
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 02 May 2017, 04:30

Burgerman wrote:Very proffesional!



Thanks - So far so good - moving along - i finished up on the wires - with XT 90 ends - One Cable is left till i actually measure how long it will be and then add an SB50 on the other end to connect to the Chair -

what i noticed today was - i recently purchased more XT 90s - and they were much much harder to connect and disconnect to my surprise - so i didnt use those - will be returning them - turns out i had just enough for this job and they were much easier to use - now that worries me if i need more - its a hit and miss - some are more yellow in color and some are more orange yellow - which seem to be easier to connect etc, -

here are the pics for the wires - i felt i did a good job with the 10 AWG this time around - seemed easier now - and i used that Blue tack to hold it in place -

whats left now is to connect them to the battery and locktite it down - then measure the last long cable and finish that up with sleeving - so its nice looking since it will be coming out of the bag and down the chair -

after i finish this up - will make the charge cable and leave it connected to the battery all the time in the bag -
Attachments
XT 90.jpg
Wires Done XT 90.jpg
wires.jpg
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 02 May 2017, 04:37

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00MUC5M22/ ... UTF8&psc=1

this is the same bag i am using with my other chair with ADD ON - i choose Grey for this one - my other bag is Black - Black gets very dusty fast - or at least you can see it more - theres many colors to choose from and its a strong bag

what i do is get a plastic Container to fit the ADD ON - hard to find a good fit - so you may have to cut one to size - if you can get the lid on - thats great - then make a large opening in the lid for the wires to stick out -

you can cushion the pack in the container with foam - i used the white foam that comes with the Cells when you purchase them - flat ones - you may want to add a firm bottom to this Bag since there isnt much support - you can add wood or anything really - or nothing since the container will be good enough anyway -

i hang this on the chair push bars - but i also use Two bungee cords to hold it in place - it works for me - so far so good
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 02 May 2017, 14:21

More people should build these. If not confident to do a whole chair, this is an easy way to start.

Double your existing range, learn all the skills, acquire equipment, so you will know how to do a full chair, keep the lead. Keep the warranty. Make the lead last many years.

I will make this a sticky.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Gnomatic » 02 May 2017, 15:53

Looks good, Claudio.

Congrats on the sticky! :)
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 02 May 2017, 16:12

Yes i think this is great way to start - and for most users - its all they may need - I can do 20 miles easily on a daily run - i dont feel most people do 20 miles a day ever - with a ADD ON like this to a brand new set of Gels 24's - you can get easy 25 miles - most wont ever loose one green in a day for the avg. person -

But beware its addictive :) once you start you will want more and more -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 02 May 2017, 16:12

Burgerman wrote:More people should build these. If not confident to do a whole chair, this is an easy way to start.

Double your existing range, learn all the skills, acquire equipment, so you will know how to do a full chair, keep the lead. Keep the warranty. Make the lead last many years.

I will make this a sticky.



I finally moved up a notch :mrgreen:
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby LROBBINS » 02 May 2017, 16:44

From where you started you've certainly moved up much more than a notch - in knowledge and skill. I've been doing electronics for years and my connections don't look anywhere near as clean and neatly done as yours - bravo.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Gnomatic » 02 May 2017, 17:25

Burgerman wrote:Make the lead last many years.



Would that be the case if the main lead battery was still being regularly cooked by a mobility charger?
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 02 May 2017, 17:33

LROBBINS wrote:From where you started you've certainly moved up much more than a notch - in knowledge and skill. I've been doing electronics for years and my connections don't look anywhere near as clean and neatly done as yours - bravo.


thanks - its always a job when i have to solder etc, but its more about doing the prepping part - getting everything you need ready - etc, - one step at a time - i cut the wire a bit longer than needed - i tin the ends -

then i get the connector and add the solder there also - may have to change Iron tips depends - make the connector stable - and can have someone hold it a little also - when i solder the top pin of the connector - i place some tape under it on top of the bottom pin - so if anything falls - it hits the tape -

once i cut the wires and tin them - they are much longer than needed - thats the way i want it - i then take that and size it in an empty pin on the connector so i can cut it down to the right size - and since the wire is tinned - most times you just have to heat up the connector pin and just wait till it melts inside holding the wire on top of it as it melts just blends right in -

Maybe friday i will tackle the charge cable for this and that should be it - just attach the wires and charge it up - test it - and hang it on the chair - if i can do - alot of others can i am sure -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 02 May 2017, 20:56

Would that be the case if the main lead battery was still being regularly cooked by a mobility charger?


That all depends what the mobility charger does. So far every one I examined does something different.
But thats just one thing that kills off lead bricks. The other is depth of discharge. A few full discharges will kill them. Thousands of shallow discharges are possible. And heres the thing. Because of the way the two types of chemistries work together, you use the lithium Ah first. Theres an overlap at some point about 40% in, and then the lead does more and more as you go. So the lead gets far less use than you would expect so lasts well. And the PL8 can charge both the lead, and the lithium simultaneously, at 28.20v. Or each seperately if you want.

But look at it like this for range. You get about 45 to 50Ah from a 70Ah gel battery. So a small 30Ah (all usable) addon gives an easy 60 to 70% increase in range.
Dont expect the addon to last as long as a full pack though because you do take it low regularly.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 02 May 2017, 21:44

i Been using your preset for both lead and lithium combined - and thats all i do - charge it together with the PL 8 - works great - this was my first ADD ON 36ah - 12ah cells and the lead was a year old maybe - but kept as best i can before i had the PL 8 - still going strong - now the very first ADD ON i did - i didnt even let them discharge and group the cells etc, - i just slapped all of them together and turned it on - first i did 2 rows - after a week or two - i knew already this was it - i had to do it - and went all in with the full pack - which i then added another row making it 36ah -

i prefer to use the 15ah Cells - 30ah - with only two rows - keeps the ADD ON on the smaller side and less bulky - i keep the ADD ON connected to the chair all the time -and use the charge cable with the Subd end from the lithium to charge all at once usually 25A charge rate - with the 12V PSU - i leave it at 15A charge rate -

even if you can get the Gels to last 5 years - thats still great - most users who dont drain it down much - they can last easy 5 years this way - if you do 20 to 25 miles each time - you still good for 2 to 3 years easy i think -

dont use a BMS or the dumb chargers -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 02 May 2017, 23:55

This is how i charge my chair with both lead and lithium combined - - very simple - easy - plug it in and start it with the PL 8 -

i never remove the lithium from the chair - it remains connected all the time - -
Attachments
Lead - lithium combined 1.jpg
Lead - lithium Combined.jpg
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 03 May 2017, 00:36

I do the same, but directly next to my bed with lithium, lead and just put my laptop on the seat when I end up sleeping.

Also next to my desktop PC in the daytime if I forget.

Note to others. You dont have to use a computer. But once you have, you wont do it any other way.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 03 May 2017, 15:14

I was checking the chair above with the very first ADD ON i did - and with the above chair - i did use 8 AWG wire with Anderson ends on both the battery side -and chair side etc, - i didnt know about the XT 90 then - but also with this chair - i never disconnect it from the chair - unless i have to to change the batteries inside etc, or for other reasons - but i dont have to disconnect to charge - so using the Anderson wasnt a issue here with the size etc, - the wiring i used here was Marine Grade wire - before i started using the Silicone kind - and the wire ends that connect to the battery terminals are rings -

Feel free to use 8 AWG and Anderson SB50 connectors - which ever works for you - - on my other chair with the 105ah pack - i used 10 AWG silicone with XT 90 connector on the Chair end all the way back and will finish it off with this ADD ON the same - i have used it this way with a ADD ON connected to do a 44 mile ride and no issues -

i have read some have soldered 8 AWG with the XT 90 also - i never tired that - maybe i will just to see how that works - if you feel better using 8 Awg - give it a shot - if i manage to solder 8 Awg in the XT 90 - i will post those pictures with the results -

By the way - Charging this chair with the ADD ON - very first pack i made and its a perfect graph - :) this would be going on my 2nd summer with it - batteries are 3 years old in there - still fine - but i asked for new ones since its been a few years and they were 1 year old before i even added the lithium to it - they still pull 25 miles last time i rode it -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby steves1977uk » 03 May 2017, 19:13

Nice guide expresso :) I posted a link to this thread on my FB wall to try and show others how easy it is to build an ADD-ON pack to increase their range. Every powerchair user should do this!

Steve
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 03 May 2017, 23:40

thanks Steve - everyone should do this at the very least -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby SteveO » 03 May 2017, 23:48

Hey Expresso, what a great guide. I've read many of your posts with great interest and this is definitely the best so far. It's made me think I could give it a go, well, when I eventually get my F55 project finished anyway. Nearly done now though. Anyway, great post, thanks!
SteveO
Quickie F55s (now adding brushless motors and control system) Roma Scirocco Granny chair (selling soon) Quickie Groove M (soon to have P&G system)
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby rustyjames » 03 May 2017, 23:53

Yes, Thanks expresso for your efforts. It'll help inspire me to finally start getting serious on building one too.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 04 May 2017, 01:04

thanks steve - rusty -

and YES - you all can do it - - its not that bad to make this little 30ah pack that will change your life for real - - just one cable from the lead in your chair to outside the frame - SB50 end - use 8 AWG - that will stay there - thats it - you dont have to touch your chair other than that -

this will all be outside your chair in a backpack - - i was impressed when i first did it - for the first time - i went out all day and never lost a green bar -

i lost my first green bar after 18 miles :) the rest follow not long after - but the most important is that first green bar - i made it 25 miles and in the orange - didnt hit RED - and dont want to either - most times users dont ever do 20 miles anyway - -

i read about your guys building the chairs - taking it apart etc, motors - thats even harder than this little pack - if you can do that - you can do this easily and get instant Range added -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
expresso
 
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby Burgerman » 04 May 2017, 01:41

Probably best to do this with healthy MK gel batteries. AGMs, even MK branded, or Odyssey etc and esp cheap generic ones are slightly lower voltage after the first few hundred yards. Meaning the small add-on pack will be doing all the work alone which may not do it much good. That said, I have tried it. Seemed OK once!

And also, run one cell group too low, just once, and you will have issues... So should use a tiny cheap monitor if going for distance records.
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby shirley_hkg » 04 May 2017, 03:03

Burgerman wrote:Probably best to do this with healthy MK gel batteries. AGMs, even MK branded, or Odyssey etc and esp cheap generic ones are slightly lower voltage after the first few hundred yards. Meaning the small add-on pack will be doing all the work alone which may not do it much good. That said, I have tried it.
.


Ha , you didn't forget what we agreed on .

I didn't have the cells monitor during the 5 years running add-on , before full lithium. May be I have never had a chance to run them real low , if you have that amount of electricity to spend .
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby snaker » 04 May 2017, 03:51

I am still vague about how to switch the power source from the add-on to the battery box. Is that done automatically or manually? E.g if the gauges loose the first green light (means the add-on is closely drained), does the battery box automatically become the power source in replace of the add-on? Or do you manually unplug the add-on and then plug the connector to the battery box?
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Re: Step By Step 30ah Pack build with pictures

Postby expresso » 04 May 2017, 05:01

snaker wrote:I am still vague about how to switch the power source from the add-on to the battery box. Is that done automatically or manually? E.g if the gauges loose the first green light (means the add-on is closely drained), does the battery box automatically become the power source in replace of the add-on? Or do you manually unplug the add-on and then plug the connector to the battery box?



Hi - You dont have to switch anything - the Lead batteries in your chair is connected to the ADD ON pack from one Cable you have to make and add to the Lead batteries in your chair - - then with the ADD ON outside your chair - you connect them together and leave them that way - thats it -

it becomes ONE BIG Battery this way - -- you will Charge the Chair from a Charge cable you will make and leave connected to the ADD ON battery - with that charge cable you connect it to the PL 8 - charger to charge - thats it -

Like BM said - you can use a Cell monitor - and maybe you should use one anyway just to know - i havnt on the ADD ON with the LEAD - i go by the joystick gauge - this may not be accurate - But once you loose all your greens - you should go home and charge - Dont try to ride it into the RED - that may be too low - you dont want any Cell groups to drop low enough to damage the cells - so having a Cell monitor - you can check them if your concerned

i will be making one also - and can use on either chair to check them -

i have done 25 miles with the lead and ADD ON - and not hit the RED - i was in the orange down a few bars but still in Orange - thats about done if you are worried and dont have a cell monitor - once you loose all your greens - Charge up - at this point - you shouldnt be low enough to damage the cells

if you push it past the orange into the RED - then you may - i did about 18 miles before i lost the first Green bar - using my phone App - but you know once you loose the first Green bar - the rest follow much faster - it hangs in there much better than with Lead alone - but everything comes to a end sooner or later - you have to find that spot for yourself - every chair - setup will be different - you may get 27 miles out one setup and 22 miles out of another -

when you do it - you can run it till you loose the greens keeping track of the miles used - then you have an idea more or less -

You dont have to unplug anything from eachother - - Shirley Ran his for 5 years no cell monitor and had no issues - so i followed his advice and did it also -
it will depend first on using a Brand new set of MK Gel 24 with the 30ah ADD ON - you should be good for many years - it will also depend on your chair - riding style - etc, follow the steps to group the cells best you can - to give your self the best chance for success -

after doing every thing Correct and best it can be - theres ALWAYS a chance - you get a Bad cell or Bad set of Gels - etc, - no one can help that -

but to get the best start at it - start fresh - brand knew - make the ADD ON best you can - - use a Cell monitor to be safe and learn your limits -

thats the best start you can have - 99% you be happy with the results -
Quickie P222se - 60Ah ADD ON
Quickie S646se - 150Ah LifePo4
Quickie P220 - Indoor Chair
Bounder Plus - 180Ah LifePo4
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